[SOLVED] The effectiveness of Noctua IPPC 3000s

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Temperature is not the prime limiting factor for an overclock.
The voltage that you are willing to tolerate is usually the first limitation.
As the voltage rises, the need for cooling also rises..
I think you did decently at 4.6 and voltage of 1.25 or so.
You accomplished your objective to lower temperatures.
If you are willing to tolerate 1.4v, here is what silicon lottery posted a year ago:
as of 3/22/2018
What % of I7-8700k chips can oc
at a aggressive vcore near 1.4 or so and delidded
4.9 99%
5.0 88%
5.1 54%
5.2 22%
 
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Darkbreeze

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Whether or not you are willing to tolerate a given voltage, however, is usually heavily influenced by whether or not you can thermally tolerate that voltage, so really it's kind of a chicken and egg type thing in truth. I think a lot of people hit the thermal ceiling where they cannot manage core or VRM temperatures before they experience excessive electrical stress and instability. (Yes, instability can happen at both ends of the spectrum)
 

Karadjgne

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Goes either way. Non overclockers running i7's etc on stock or budget coolers tend to run into thermal issues far more than overclocked pc's. Overclocked pc's tend to have excessive cooling and will run into safe voltage limits more frequently. Of course the opposite is also true when idiots try bumping OC on budget coolers after watching YouTube videos or idiots who just bump voltages excessively high under assumption the cpu needs it for faster speeds.
 
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Phaaze88

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UPDATE: The top panel case mod is complete! I'd say it came out quite nice for my first try.




I've got the best possible setup - or darn close to it - for an air cooled PC. But it just isn't enough to tame that beast, at least going by SL's settings.
Temps are fine after applying those settings to the cpu. Add in the 3466 memory OC, and it throttles. Tried 4.5ghz on SL's settings, throttled again. Both are without OC'ing the gpu.
There's no thermal headroom for a full system OC(cpu/ram/gpu). And 4.5 is supposed to be a mild OC for a 7820x...
I'm open for considering liquid cooling at this point, LOL! Tom's currently has the CM Masterliquid ML360R RGB as the best large AIO before going to custom loop. It'll fit in my case, but is there anything else I should consider?


On the topic of SL's settings, it appears they add more voltage than necessary. So I'm going to continue testing with lower vcore for 4.5 and 4.6.
I thought it was a bit odd how high their settings were for those clocks when I know I can get 4.3 and 4.4 with 1.085v and 1.130v respectively. Using deductive reasoning, I may not end up with a huge difference for 4.6 though.
But, will my air cooled setup be enough once the memory and gpu OCs are factored in? It'll be a no brainer if I get that AIO.
 
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Darkbreeze

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That came out badass dude!! Nice job, really nice. You should post that in the members systems section.

Yeah, that's not the best or biggest AIO, but since your case won't support an Eisbar 420 then 360 is good as it gets.

What motherboard model are you running? I don't see anywhere where you mention this and for overclocking this is obviously the MOST important consideration beyond all others.
 

Phaaze88

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That came out badass dude!! Nice job, really nice. You should post that in the members systems section.

Yeah, that's not the best or biggest AIO, but since your case won't support an Eisbar 420 then 360 is good as it gets.

What motherboard model are you running? I don't see anywhere where you mention this and for overclocking this is obviously the MOST important consideration beyond all others.
Thanks, I'll do that!

Well, I was using this link as a reference: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-cpu-coolers,4181-2.html
If there are better 360mm AIOs available, I'm all ears. Of course, I'll have to check and see if they'll fit in my case.

Motherboard's an Asus Prime X299 Deluxe.
 

Darkbreeze

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Apparently, not a particularly great overclocking board, but better than some.

While the Prime X299-Deluxe beats the X299 Gaming Pro Carbon AC overclocking either processor, the reason for stopping is different. While the Prime X299-Deluxe experienced the traditional system crash when taking our Core i9-7900X from 4.3 to 4.4 GHz at 1.20V, that same CPU would throttle down its eighth core when pushed past 4.20 GHz on the X299 Gaming Pro Carbon AC.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-prime-x299-deluxe-motherboard,5095-4.html


The H150i is the quietest of the giant coolers, while still offering pretty good performance, but for my money, I think the EVGA CLC 280 shows the best performance overall, out of all the AIO coolers, but it's not quiet, at all. It does however have massive static pressure on it's fans, with over 4mm H20 static pressure. I'm sure any of the higher end 280 or 360mm coolers, including the CM unit you mentioned, would be fine.
 

Karadjgne

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That looks like it came from the factory and was intended to look like that all along. I love seeing case mods, far too many get hung up on changing anything, yet will happily swap rims, radio, paint job, bling, exhausts, engine on a car.

Looks great!

Most AIO's are the same. There's only a handful of radiator OEMs and not many more pump OEMs, so unless it's something custom, chances are pretty good that the choice of aio doesn't matter nearly as much as the choice of who supplies the fans. A fan will make or break an aio. A good example is the Corsair H150i Pro. The original release, with the non-rgb fans, is a seriously good aio, great performance temp wise and the ML fans were extremely quiet, even at higher rpm. Corsair then dropped that in favor of the new RGB release, but the fans are pathetic for that application. Look good for sure, most rgb does, but the performance is seriously lackluster for the price.

The fractal design S36 is similar. FD went above and beyond there, teaming up with AlphaCool and Asetek to make a modular AIO in the Celcius series. A 360mm rad has higher wattage headroom, @ 350w ish, slightly higher than a 280mm, but fractals fans dropped the ball, and get somewhat loud at higher rpm.

Maybe should look into EKWB, they have affordable fully complete, everything included, starter kits for a custom liquid cooling sysyem, in 1 box. Some include gpu blocks, some don't.
 

Phaaze88

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Apparently, not a particularly great overclocking board, but better than some.



https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-prime-x299-deluxe-motherboard,5095-4.html


The H150i is the quietest of the giant coolers, while still offering pretty good performance, but for my money, I think the EVGA CLC 280 shows the best performance overall, out of all the AIO coolers, but it's not quiet, at all. It does however have massive static pressure on it's fans, with over 4mm H20 static pressure. I'm sure any of the higher end 280 or 360mm coolers, including the CM unit you mentioned, would be fine.
The date of that review tells me it was before the discovery of the low power limit settings(the derps underestimated the power draw of skylake-x) on the early models. If you go into the bios and remove, or raise the power limiters to the max settings, it fixes the throttling somewhat; doesn't change the fact that a 7900x sucks some serious juice when OC'd. My current mobo should be enough to maintain 4.6, and active cooling of the vrms won't be an issue either.

None of the fans on any AIO, or custom loop kit I've yet seen top the performance of the 120/140mm IPPC 3000s I have, so whichever model I get, the stock fans are getting the boot!
Plus, the fans I currently have says what I think about noise... XD

That looks like it came from the factory and was intended to look like that all along. I love seeing case mods, far too many get hung up on changing anything, yet will happily swap rims, radio, paint job, bling, exhausts, engine on a car.

Looks great!

Most AIO's are the same. There's only a handful of radiator OEMs and not many more pump OEMs, so unless it's something custom, chances are pretty good that the choice of aio doesn't matter nearly as much as the choice of who supplies the fans. A fan will make or break an aio. A good example is the Corsair H150i Pro. The original release, with the non-rgb fans, is a seriously good aio, great performance temp wise and the ML fans were extremely quiet, even at higher rpm. Corsair then dropped that in favor of the new RGB release, but the fans are pathetic for that application. Look good for sure, most rgb does, but the performance is seriously lackluster for the price.

The fractal design S36 is similar. FD went above and beyond there, teaming up with AlphaCool and Asetek to make a modular AIO in the Celcius series. A 360mm rad has higher wattage headroom, @ 350w ish, slightly higher than a 280mm, but fractals fans dropped the ball, and get somewhat loud at higher rpm.

Maybe should look into EKWB, they have affordable fully complete, everything included, starter kits for a custom liquid cooling sysyem, in 1 box. Some include gpu blocks, some don't.
Thank you!

I'm going to use the 120/140mm IPPC 3000s I have on hand, regardless of AIO or custom loop, so would a 360mm AIO still be a poor choice?

Took a look at the Ekwb site and went through their configurator, and it recommends the following:
EK-Vardar F3-120 (1850rpm) 2x $43.88
EK-CoolStream SE 240 (Slim Dual) 1x $73.19
EK-XRES 100 Revo D5 PWM (incl. pump) 1x $189.09
EK-FB ASUS PRIME X299 RGB Monoblock - Nickel 1x $182.99
EK-DuraClear 9,5/12,7mm 3M RETAIL 1x $18.29
EK-ACF Fitting 10/13mm - Black 6x $51.18
EK-CryoFuel Blood Red Concentrate 100 mL 1x $12.19
EK-ATX Bridging Plug (24 pin) 1x $3.04
EK-Cable Y-Splitter 2-Fan PWM (10cm) 1x $4.26
Total: $578.11 (a gpu block isn't available)
I can knock off about $50, since I already have fans and y-splitters, but that's still quite the jump over a 280/360mm AIO at 1/3, or 1/2 the price.
Does the extra performance and expandability make up for the cost, and did I leave anything out?
 

Darkbreeze

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Phaaze88

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The Kelvin s36 is discontinued, but was succeeded by the Celsius s36?

EDIT: in my previous post about Ekwb's Online Configurator, on step 2, "Which components do you wish to liquid cool?", the options are cpu, gpu, motherboard, and ram.
In the gpu box, there's the message: "Sorry, we have no plans to make a full cover water block for this position. Thank you."
Well that drastically cuts my expansion options. At that point, the cpu loop by itself would be akin to a really expensive AIO. Custom loop wouldn't be worth the investment, unless I overlooked something?
 

Darkbreeze

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Damn. Unlike the Kelvin, the Celcius has mixed metals, which means there IS going to be galvanic corrosion at some point down the road when the inhibitors in the coolant break down.

Can't tell you too much about custom loops, because I have no experience in that arena, but I know who does, and he's a moderator here. I'll get him to chime in with some suggestions if you think you might be willing to do a custom loop?
 

Karadjgne

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Fractal didn't use Asetek, but their pump was too similar to Astek's design so the Kelvin was not allowed to be sold in the US due to patent infringements. Fractal then went through Asetek for the Celcius, but the concept of a Semi-Modular design using G1/4 fittings on the rad was AlphaCool design, as is the rad.

The Celcius pump is strong enough and has enough flow at 40L/hr to handle a second rad. It's not as good as a D5 with reservoir and the larger tubing etc common to full custom loop, but like the Swiftech designs, it's adaptability and sheer size at 360mm puts it a step above the more common CLC's. It'll never dry out, as it's refillable, so the standard @ 5yrs of use rule doesn't apply, only the rated 50khr expected lifetime.

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-x360

Thickest 360mm rad there is, sucker is 60mm before fans. Rated at 500w+ capacity. You'd need either the Vardars or those IPPC 3k fans, it's a ton of resistance, but unchallenged ability
 
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Phaaze88

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Ekwb has an article with some images... rather nasty, I'd like to avoid that.
If I'm to go the liquid cooling route, I'd rather 'do it right'. The underlined part is what bugs me the most about going custom loop over AIO right now. They have gpu only blocks, but then I'd have to provide direct cooling for the ram and vrms X_X'
I'm more interested in doing custom loop than an AIO, but since there isn't a full gpu block available for my card, wouldn't the loop be equivalent to a really expensive AIO until I get a gpu later down the road that they've actually made a full block for?


https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mid-tower/mastercase-h500p-mesh/#Specifications
The max thickness clearance is 55mm... at least for the top. It doesn't specify for the front. Just to be on the safe side, I assume it's the same.
 

Karadjgne

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Lol. Measure. Top clearance is all about the motherboard intrusion, hitting the VRM heatsinks etc, so yeah, that's important. In my define R5, I removed the useless lumps called hdd bays. From inside front to back of the gpu is @ 7" of clearance now, thats roughly 180mm of empty space. I mounted my rad interior, and fans in pull and still had a ton of room left.

Each case design is different, but normally for front clearance it'll depend on the length of your gpu vrs the space left to the front, minus intrusions like psu shrouds, hdd bays etc. So you'll need to see what's what there. I've seen some cases claim a certain rad thickness max for front, but what they didn't say was that was with a psu shroud in place. Not hard to chop off an extra inch from the shroud to make room.
 

Phaaze88

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Lol. Measure. Top clearance is all about the motherboard intrusion, hitting the VRM heatsinks etc, so yeah, that's important. In my define R5, I removed the useless lumps called hdd bays. From inside front to back of the gpu is @ 7" of clearance now, thats roughly 180mm of empty space. I mounted my rad interior, and fans in pull and still had a ton of room left.

Each case design is different, but normally for front clearance it'll depend on the length of your gpu vrs the space left to the front, minus intrusions like psu shrouds, hdd bays etc. So you'll need to see what's what there. I've seen some cases claim a certain rad thickness max for front, but what they didn't say was that was with a psu shroud in place. Not hard to chop off an extra inch from the shroud to make room.
/facepalm
Of course I should've measured it myself!
So front interior to gpu is about 5 inches(127mm), and I'm getting 2 3/8 inches(60.32mm) at the top... that's pretty significant from the 55mm on the CM website.

EDIT: Nevermind, it's 55mm like they said. I overlooked the big old I/O port block, so the X360 wouldn't fit, but the P360, which is a step down would.
 
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Karadjgne

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40+25=65

They are counting on 25mm for fan and a standard or slim 25mm rad like the older H100i uses etc. Even a thicker x6 series 280mm nzxt will maybe have clearance issues, especially with the bigger fans. Youd have to check the offset, if there is any. Some rads/fans even have ram clearance issues on top, the ram slots being too high on the mobo.

All this limited space in smaller mid ATX cases that aren't as tall as full towers is part of the reason most newer cases have front loading aios, not top.
 

Phaaze88

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40+25=65

They are counting on 25mm for fan and a standard or slim 25mm rad like the older H100i uses etc. Even a thicker x6 series 280mm nzxt will maybe have clearance issues, especially with the bigger fans. Youd have to check the offset, if there is any. Some rads/fans even have ram clearance issues on top, the ram slots being too high on the mobo.

All this limited space in smaller mid ATX cases that aren't as tall as full towers is part of the reason most newer cases have front loading aios, not top.
From the top to bottom of the fan bracket is 28.57mm. About 3 1/2mm of remaining space with 25mm thick fans.
From the top of the case(fan bracket removed)to the top of the slot that holds the I/O shield is 31.75mm. *I'm not even sure if the rad would actually even bump into this, but I chose to include it anyway, as it was the next closest 'obstacle' from the top.
Then, from the top of the case(no fan bracket)to the plastic block that covers the I/O ports is 38.10 mm.
So 60.32mm total from the fan bracket to the top of the I/O slot, and 66.67mm to the plastic block. So the X360 will fit, as long as the rad can clear the top of the slot that holds the I/O shield. Well, even if it doesn't... that's one tight fit.
 

rubix_1011

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That's the trouble with non-reference PCB; it becomes difficult to find a full cover waterblock that fits some cards on vendor-modified PCB. There are a few that Gigabyte does support, but apparently your card is not. Interesting because when I did the 2990WX Threadripper and 1080Ti build back in November, I could find a block from EK for the Gigabyte card, but must have been a more standard PCB. https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-threadripper-2990wx-water-cooling-pc-build,review-34686.html

Now, EK does make some great watercooling gear (my entire current build is EK parts) but Alphacool and Swiftech are among others that also put out some great watercooling gear.

If you are checking radiator clearance, while you're remembering fan clearance, you're also going to want to factor in another couple millimeters just to account for the screw heads and washers to mount the fans. Also keep in mind that tubing doesn't like to make sharp turns, so account for enough area to make a good radius turn, whether it be soft tubing or bending hard tubing.

If you're looking to go the watercooling route, it is a fun hobby to get into, but don't expect monumental changes in temps for a CPU. While you should see about the average idle temps, load temps should be moderately better, especially under sustained loads with fewer load spikes and the ability for your temps to immediately drop off as soon as load returns to idle. For GPUs, you can really expect to see your load temps cut in half, or sometimes even more. My RTX 2080 doesn't normally see temps above 45C, even after a long period of time while gaming. I've seen GPUs in the past that would run near 90C-100C on air and then once watercooled, never see above 45C-50C.

If you are expecting to do any heavy CPU overclocking, you will want to account for additional radiators to help normalize your temps. While a 360 rad will be able to handle a CPU and GPU, once you start upping voltages and clock rates, components get hotter much faster. If you can find a monoblock for your motherboard, this can also help cool the motherboard PWM and power delivery which can help stabilize overclocks as well. Not to keep referencing the same build, but I would likely never been able to reach the speeds on the 2990WX had it not been for the full monoblock I used for the testing.
 

Phaaze88

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That's the trouble with non-reference PCB; it becomes difficult to find a full cover waterblock that fits some cards on vendor-modified PCB. There are a few that Gigabyte does support, but apparently your card is not. Interesting because when I did the 2990WX Threadripper and 1080Ti build back in November, I could find a block from EK for the Gigabyte card, but must have been a more standard PCB. https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-threadripper-2990wx-water-cooling-pc-build,review-34686.html
I find that odd. I was sure my card was a standard PCB with an aftermarket cooler slapped on. The price was just a few dollars more than msrp. The card in question: https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Graphics-Card/GV-N108TGAMING-OC-11GD#kf

Now, EK does make some great watercooling gear (my entire current build is EK parts) but Alphacool and Swiftech are among others that also put out some great watercooling gear.
I don't have any preference for brand, as I just started taking interest into watercooling. I started looking at EK, because they were the brand I was introduced to first(Karadjgne).Before this, I wasn't comfortable with the idea of running a substance throughout my PC that'll pretty much destroy it if I am careless, or if I were to get a poor quality product.
I want to be able to do a full system OC, and I am seeing the limit of what I can accomplish on air, even with these top tier fans and heatsink.

If you are checking radiator clearance, while you're remembering fan clearance, you're also going to want to factor in another couple millimeters just to account for the screw heads and washers to mount the fans. Also keep in mind that tubing doesn't like to make sharp turns, so account for enough area to make a good radius turn, whether it be soft tubing or bending hard tubing.
I have, but I'm not sure if I have enough clearance for the really thick radiators, like this one: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-x360 (60mm)
I went back over the measurements I took, and one like in the link actually would fit, but it'd be a tight one.
I'm going to start with soft tubing since it's recommended for beginners, so I'll keep that in mind.

If you are expecting to do any heavy CPU overclocking, you will want to account for additional radiators to help normalize your temps. While a 360 rad will be able to handle a CPU and GPU, once you start upping voltages and clock rates, components get hotter much faster. If you can find a monoblock for your motherboard, this can also help cool the motherboard PWM and power delivery which can help stabilize overclocks as well. Not to keep referencing the same build, but I would likely never been able to reach the speeds on the 2990WX had it not been for the full monoblock I used for the testing.
EK has this block for my motherboard: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus-prime-x299-monoblock-nickel
 

Karadjgne

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Looks like you are building mITX. Anybody with 1 hand, half blind and more than 2x braincells can throw a build into a full tower, without any real thought behind the process or what size the parts are. MITX is the exact opposite. Careful planning, research into every part, where it fits, where it obstructs other parts, clearances even down to screw heads interference all play a major role in mITX. It's more than just Feng Shui, it's got to work. This cooling project is no different. So spending the time on research, measuring, taking everything into account no matter how small, like screw heads, is just as important as any other, obvious, details.

But you are on the right track. Just don't forget, measure twice, cut once. Then measure again to be sure. Nothing worse than getting everything perfect, but you missed the part where ram height interferes with the fans or some other stupidity you missed.
 
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Darkbreeze

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LOL!
I've invested a fair bit into this system, and it's far from obsolete, so I'm not about to part with it that soon!
I know the feeling. And my system is a lot less capable than it should be for the amount of money that's invested in it. It does ok, really just lacking a good graphics card right now ever since I sold my R9 290x a few years back and just seems like there's always a bigger priority, either on my system or in life, than a graphics card. Definitely the next item up though because there's not much else I can do to this platform really to improve things, much like your problem, although to a lesser degree I think.

I've already got

6700k@4.6Ghz
ASUS Maximus Hero VIII
32GB Trident Z 3000mhz
970 EVO 500GB
850 EVO 500GB
Sandisk Ultra II 1TB
Seagate 2TB HDD
4 x WD 6TB external HDDs
6 x Noctua NF-A14 chromax.black.swap
1 x Noctua NF-A14 iPPC 2000rpm chromax.black.swap
1 x Noctua NF-A4x20 (M.2 drive cooling)
EVGA G2 750w
Noctua NF-U14S (A15's replaced by A14's)
Fractal Design Define S (Modified open mesh front panel)


So other than the graphics card or a whole platform upgrade, not really much I can do anymore. Aside from cooling and bigger clocks, you're pretty much at the same point I am.
 

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