The Great Ethanol Scam?

[sykozis]

Everyone seems to think that creating it from corn is the only way.

Actually....not "everyone" thinks corn is the only way to create ethanol.....Corn is simply the latest method. Ethanol has been produced from numerous sources over the years.

Ethanol can be produced from a variety of feedstocks such as sugar cane, bagasse, miscanthus, sugar beet, sorghum, grain sorghum, switchgrass, barley, hemp, kenaf, potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava, sunflower, fruit, molasses, corn, stover, grain, wheat, straw, cotton, other biomass, as well as many types of cellulose waste and harvestings, whichever has the best well-to-wheel assessment

.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

The ethanol used in beer and liquor is generally made from barley, wheat or grain. "Everclear" uses grain alcohol if I remember correctly...

Thanks sykozis - but ethanol does harm older engines and also uses a food source (corn). There has got to be a better way. JMHO,
Dave

Brazil has been using Ethanol blended fuels since 1976 and has shown no appreciable increase in engine failure rates as a result. Ethanol though, is thinner than petroleum (smaller molecules), which gives it the ability to seep past piston rings in heavily worn or improperly maintained engines, which can result in washout of lubricants resulting in engine failure. Simple use of Ethanol though, shows no appreciable increase in engine failure.

 

[sykozis]

Contrary to what Clinton thinks, moving towards ethanol won't remove our dependency on foreign oil. Ethanol will still require some degree of petroleum for several more decades. Engines will still need petroleum based products for lubrication....unless the gov't forces a switch to more costly "synthetic" lubricants.

 

[stillerfan15]

Actually....not "everyone" thinks corn is the only way to create ethanol.....Corn is simply the latest method. Ethanol has been produced from numerous sources over the years.

Ethanol can be produced from a variety of feedstocks such as sugar cane, bagasse, miscanthus, sugar beet, sorghum, grain sorghum, switchgrass, barley, hemp, kenaf, potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava, sunflower, fruit, molasses, corn, stover, grain, wheat, straw, cotton, other biomass, as well as many types of cellulose waste and harvestings, whichever has the best well-to-wheel assessment

.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

The ethanol used in beer and liquor is generally made from barley, wheat or grain. "Everclear" uses grain alcohol if I remember correctly...



Brazil has been using Ethanol blended fuels since 1976 and has shown no appreciable increase in engine failure rates as a result. Ethanol though, is thinner than petroleum (smaller molecules), which gives it the ability to seep past piston rings in heavily worn or improperly maintained engines, which can result in washout of lubricants resulting in engine failure. Simple use of Ethanol though, shows no appreciable increase in engine failure.

Thanks - never have seen that before. It's nice to be informed.
Dave

 

[sykozis]

Thanks - never have seen that before. It's nice to be informed.
Dave

I knew about the barley, wheat and grain....but the rest was new to me. Thought others would like to see it as well.

 

[stillerfan15]

I knew about the barley, wheat and grain....but the rest was new to me. Thought others would like to see it as well.

Thanks again and to reply to a previous poster we have well over 100 years supply of natural gas in North America.
Dave

 

[sykozis]

Thanks again and to reply to a previous poster we have well over 100 years supply of natural gas in North America.
Dave

Manufacturers tried natural gas as a fuel for automobiles. It's actually dangerous to those of us that have to work on them, as well as being costly to have repaired as the natural gas has to be removed from the vehicle for the fuel system to be serviced....or, if the vehicle has been in an accident, the system has to be evacuated before the vehicle can be painted in a heated paint booth.

 

[stillerfan15]

Manufacturers tried natural gas as a fuel for automobiles. It's actually dangerous to those of us that have to work on them, as well as being costly to have repaired as the natural gas has to be removed from the vehicle for the fuel system to be serviced....or, if the vehicle has been in an accident, the system has to be evacuated before the vehicle can be painted in a heated paint booth.

Still, corn based ethonal is not efficient and we are eventually going to run out of oil. Electric? Natural gas? Do we have a backup plan? Thanks,
Dave

 

[sykozis]

Several companies are working on Electric cars....and Natural Gas is being consumed as quickly as oil is...

 

[sykozis]

I've seen reports of oil and natural gas wells that have been shut down/dormant for many years have filled back up again here in the US and in the middle east. Some scientist think the term fossil fuels is a misnomer and that the earth actually produces this stuff naturally in it's subterranean processes.

Based on scientific evidence....I would not be surprised if it's actually the planet producing oil. We all know that "scientific evidence" isn't always proof of anything.

The real future of energy:

http://www.gizmag.com/creating-a-star-with-the-worlds-largest-laser/14983/

They will eventually be able to scale this technology down so that every home, building, etc. will have it's own energy source. No more power lines, no more mass blackouts due to power interruption. Automobiles with a 10 million mile range. All carbon free. A long way off, yes, but still promising.

Yeah....I wouldn't expect to see that any time soon.

 

[wanamingo]

How come no one has anything about Biodiesel? Some of the numbers on here are a bit scewed..... Biodiesel can be made from any organic material very easily and inexpensively. It will run in a diesel engine with NO modifications. Thats right all of the trucks, tractor trailers, school buses could be running on biodiesel with no modifications.

 

[stillerfan15]

A local grocery store chain famous for it's fried chicken does just that wanamingo. They recycle the used fry oil and turn it into biodiesel to run their trucks. Pretty smart!

Really? Just seems too easy a fix. I think we need another way to provide energy for the future.
Dave

 

[wanamingo]

OK so possible options are

1) Ethanol
2)LOL we wont run out of gasoline forever silly Gore.
3)Biodiesel
4)New Technology (Anti-Matter, Solar, Flintstone Power, Other)

But seriously BioDiesel is that easy, Thats why no one would adopt it as a new powersource. A lot of the Hippies out here in VT already have an additional gastank on their diesel trucks for BioDiesel. Its 100$ to get your rig ready for BioDiesel(Technically free if you wanted to mix biodiesel and diesel which is not recommended).

Seriously though do some research and youll find out its a viable alternative to gas and ethanol.

 

[jacobboe89]

ethanol , it is what it is. i has it's good qualities and bad . good , we can make it, high octane,too bad it don't have a long shelf life, it takes too much energy to produce, a little over 500 gallons is what you see from an acre's worth of corn , an acre is 43000 square feet of land, by volume this stuff has less energy than gasoline so you get less mileage. some of the problems this stuff causes for engines is due to it's short self life . ethanol also burns hotter , some how in your engine .

i think the real answer to this whole dilemma of how do we get around has been right in front of us. the rail roads have been using diesel over electric locomotives for may years now . it makes too much sense to me for all the reasons. the range of all electric vehicles is a deal breaker , the mileage and non renew ability of gas vehicles is no good either . instead of trying to get a ton of batteries to power your electric car just get a gas powered generator to supplement the batteries and charge them . i believe that no matter what fuel we are talking about if you use it to efficiently produce an electric current and use that current to run traction motors that in turn would propel the vehicle , i think we could see some fuel economy numbers that are a little more sustainable. if i ever get enough money together to build my own i would like to do this with my suburban and see if i couldn't get 30 mpg or better. i am aware of chevy volt as well , i had this thought(s) occur years before it come along.

don't be too tough on ethanol though , it's not the way but it's not a totally bad fallback option either

 

[tajisi]

What of all the developments in bio-gasoline? Shouldn't we worry more about a compatible fuel rather than reinventing the wheel for a new fuel?

 

[sykozis]

Ethanol blended fuels, while producing less power and having a shorter shelf-life, also removes the need for chemicals to prevent gas-line freezing and burns cleaner. Ethanol blended fuels also require larger volumes to burn effectively, which has a negative impact on food supply. The average life-span of a car is only 5-10 years, during which time most cars won't experience ethanol relate engine failures. The majority of engine failures are related to lubrication issues, which is where the heat produced by ethanol blended fuels has the greatest impact. Low quality oils are the most susceptible to increased engine operating temperatures as the increased temperature can cause low-quality oils to break down prematurely. Engines built using non-complementary materials, such as Ford's older 3.8liter V6 which used a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder heads are more susceptible to gasket failure (head gasket specifically) due to the increase in expansion rate of the aluminum cylinder head vs that of the cast iron engine block. These "negative" effects are really minor compared to the impact on food supply though.

 

[jacobboe89]

actually , the way that ethanol is commercially produced , leaves a substantial amount of water in the ethanol which isn't so much a problem right away , but the shelf life is short and when it starts to brake down the water separates and causes fuel system parts to corrode . i used to think ethanol eliminated the need to run heat to clear moisture from my fuel system but that just isn't so because of the water content from how its produced . i have also seen first hand that a vehicle with gasoline will start much easier at below 0 temps as opposed to a vehicle with e-85 . ethanol does have a great use though , it replaced a substance called : mtbe , methyl terrebutyl ester or something close , any how this chemical was used to oxygenate gas and make gasoline burn cleaner , it worked ok , the problem was that storage tanks leaked gas treated with this and contaminated ground water with this stuff (BAD) which was toxic to people at very low level .so ethanol does have a good use as far as a replacement for mtbe , you are talking about 10% in gas to do this .

I still think that the answer to cheaper transpertation has been around for many years and for some reason or another it has been kept from the masses , ethanol is nothing new at all it's probably as old as the wheel itself .

 

[sykozis]

There are several chemicals sold at parts stores to prevent ethanol induced corrosion, as well as having anti-corrosives added to fuel, though not in any real effective quantity. Lucas, Chevron, Sea Foam, Valvoline, and Berryman all sell products that work for reducing or eliminating alcohol induced corrosion. There are also commercially marketed products from the BG and MOC companies that are effective in removing corrosion caused by ethanol blended fuels. These are bad solutions, I'll admit, but they are solutions none-the-less. One of the fuel system treatments marketed by MOC commercially shows good results for increasing fuel mileage. I've tested this product on several occassions and have personally seen up to a 60mile gain over a tank of fuel, going from roughly 260 miles on a tank to roughly 320 miles on a tank. It's not intended to be used at every fill up and fuel mileage will decrease back to "normal" over time....but it does work very well.

 

[jacobboe89]

i actually happen to think highly of lucas oil products and sea foam products . sea foam is such a valuable auto and small engine chemical ,cleans , displaces moisture , removes carbon , used to be seafoam green but they changed it now it's clear not sure what they changed. lucas oil trans aditive does improve high mileage and malfunctioning auto tranny's . i will say that all these additives do work at lower doses than what the manufacture will instruct

 

[sykozis]

oh, I have no issues at all with the use of the products I listed in my previous post. Lucas has a great Ethanol fuel stabilizer that does exactly what they claim it will do. It's intended for small engines, but I'm sure it could be used in a car as well. I picked up a bottle a while back when my lawn mower started to surge badly. After a few weeks usage, my lawn mower runs great again without the need to remove the carburetor and clean it out again.