Thermal Protection is it all that?

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Makaveli

Splendid
Jan 15, 2001
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I've Read alot about the AMD vs Intel Cpu Battles! And one of the biggest arguments from the Intel side is no thermal protection. I would like to comment on this, there are 2 boards that I know of that will shutdown the system from the bios when the cpu reaches a certain temp. The Abit boards and my Current MSI K7T Turbo R. So if more manufactures enable this in there bios would we really need the thermal protection in the CPU?
Please keep reply to this topic on this topic. I don't want to hear about VIA!
Note: for anyone using the same board as I, u need the new 2.6 bios for that option previous ones didn't have it.
 
I actually <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1" target="_new">posted</A>on this a while back...there's other software besides the BIOS that can take care of shutting down your system for you under overheat conditions.

Kelledin

bash-2.04$ kill -9 1
init: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?
 
Unfortunately, by the time the heat from the CPU reaches the temperature sensors over on the motherboard, an Athlon with a broken or mismounted heatsink/fan has usually fried. The excessive heat can kill one of these CPUs in less than 5 seconds from power-up. It will take quite a bit longer than that for the ambient case temperature to reach critical temperatures where the motherboard sensor would notice, and then for the motherboard to shut down the CPU. Thermal protection within the actual CPU is critical to protecting your investment from such accidents.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
 
This is very true. Yes for AMD to do well in the business sector they will need heat protection. Companies will not stand for burnt cpu's because a fan died.

The bios thing and the programs can work if your cpu doesn't go over 40*C under full load. So tell it at 45*C Kill Power...HOPEFULLY it won't fry the cpu in 5 to 10 seconds. But then again it might.


96.3 % of Statistics are made up.
 
It's unfortunate that AMD doesnt have any type of heat protection for their CPU's. How dumb is that? CPU's are running at 1.3Ghz consuming nearly 70 watts of power and no means of protecting them against overheating.. duh. Has AMD ever said why there isnt thermal protection on their cpu's.. or do they even care?


(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?
 
In other words, the onboard temp sensor won't necessarily save you from <i>user error.</i> I would hardly consider that critical myself...

I would consider it rather difficult to miss a heatsink that was broken badly enough to not offer some measure of protection. Mismounting a heatsink is a pitfall though, especially as most heatsinks can physically go on two ways (only one of which is actually proper).

HSFs with a recessed contact area are a pitfall too, especially if you're using a copper shim--that can keep the contact area suspended off the CPU core. Orbs are one such HSF.

If a fan dies, a T-bird with a properly installed heatsink lasts about an hour before malfunction, according to ASUS.

Kelledin

bash-2.04$ kill -9 1
init: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?
 
The main thing isn't to keep your cpu from getting fried, but the fact that your computer was shut down. I'd rather have a computer that didn't ever shut down randomly.
 
I would love for some Intel supporter take off there heatsink on there beloved P4, start up their computer and see if the thermal protection kicks in before any damage is done. Any takers?



<font color=red>There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.</font color=red>
 
I don’t think you’ll find anybody on this forum that owns a P4 (maybe fugger does). I sure the hell don’t, Im waiting for Northwood. Any way, I would like to see two computers side by side, one Athlon the other a P4. Turn them both on without heatsinks or fans.. i bet the P4 would boot into windows while the Athlon sizzles like a strip of bacon in 5 seconds or less.


(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?
 
I read the P4 uses almost the same watts as an Athlon. If the P4 didn’t shut down immediately it will fry just like an AMD long before windows pops up.

<font color=red>There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.</font color=red>
 
Athlon 1.3Ghz
1.75v
95 C Max Temp (No Thermal Protection)
73 Watts Power Consumption

Pentium 4 1.3Ghz
1.7 v
70 C Max (Thermal protection)
48.9 Watts Power Consumption

The Pentium 4 consumes far less power then the less efficient Athlon, especially considering that the Pentium 4 has many more transistors. It even looks worse for AMD when we compare the power output of the 1Ghz Athlon and 1Ghz Pentium III.

Athlon 1Ghz
1.75v
95 C Max Temp (No Thermal Protection)
<b>50.75</b> Watts Power Consumption

Pentium III 1Ghz
1.7 v
70 C Max Temp (Thermal protection)
<b>26.1</b> Watts Power Consumption
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Everett6 on 05/11/01 10:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
I am not entirely sure I am correct on this but here goes anyway.

The P4 has some kind of throttle back of speed by reducing power and therefore heat. If a P4 is run hard for an extened period of time it is forced to slow down to manage its temperature dynamically.

The Palomino or Athlon 4 has power management features which may well perform in the same way (I guess we find out on Monday).

We really are reaching the limit of 0.18u speeds and I guess this is just using some smarts to squeeze out that extra bit of performace. I do however worry about manufacturers putting in cheap cooling systems on highend machines with the consumer not knowing that they are only ever running there processor at half speed.

All I can say is bring on Northwood & Thoroughbred.

<font color=blue> The Revolution starts here... as soon as I finish my coffee </font color=blue> 😱
 
Yes, we all want to see what the Palomino will do, or how it will fare up against the P4, and later on the Northwood.
I agree it was stupid of AMD to not have included some kind of Thermal Protection ON the CPU, but that doesnt mean its a bad CPU.
Question, doesnt the ASUS Probe software include some kind of Software Coolign feature which will automatically shut down the computer if it reaches a certain SET temperature ?!?!?

Burn MF, BURN!!!
 
From <A HREF="http://www.inqst.com/articles/p4bandwidth/p4bandwidthmain.htm" target="_new">http://www.inqst.com/articles/p4bandwidth/p4bandwidthmain.htm</A>
<font color=green>"Update: Intel’s Thermal Design Guide has revealed that the absolute maximum power dissipation of the 1.5GHz P4 is actually 72.9 watts. This is 33% higher than the published system design specification, and essentially identical to the 1.33 GHz Athlon. If power dissipation is sustained at a level higher than 54.7 watts thermal overload can occur. In order to deal with this, a mechanism called thermal throttling is used. If performance critical applications drive the CPU above a predetermined temperature, the CPU is halted with a 50% duty cycle (alternating 2 microseconds on; 2 microseconds off) until it cools down. This effectively turns your 1.5GHz processor into a 750MHz processor – just at the moment you demand peak performance. On the other hand, you will probably still be able to check your email at 1.5GHz. This scheme is described on page 23 of Intel’s P4 Thermal Design Guide.

Commentary is already floating around the web that perhaps Intel feels guilty about selling 750MHz CPUs in 1.5GHz clothing, and thus has decided to cut the price by 50% as well."</font color=green>

72.9 watts! That’s just the P4 1.5 gig, what about the 1.7? Which is what you need to compete with an AMD 1.3 gig. The fact is I don’t care if the CPU’s use 200+ watts of power. I also don’t care how hot they run as long as they run stable (which mine dose). I just bugs me when people say the P4 uses much less power then an Athlon which is untrue.

Thx & Cya



<font color=red>There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.</font color=red>
 
I've read that article before. It doesnt say that the P4 runs at 72.9 watts all the time. It says that the P4 <b>can</b> reach those temps if needed (like if the HS fan dies), when actually the P4 1.3Ghz runs at a more effecient 50 watts 99.9% of the time.


(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?
 
No, not all the time, just when you use it. Jeeze - my cpus run 100% 24x7, I don't care if it is an Intel or AMD cpu - it still runs, and they do run hot.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
 
I don't think companies give a rat's a$$ about a cpu fan or dead cpus.

If a pc dies, it gets sent out on warranty or maintenace. Why it spotted working is of no concern. The % of pcs that would stop working due to a fan dying causing a cpu to fail is very very low.

At the end of the day it depends if Dell, Compaq HP etc. are prepared to take a slightly larger hit on their failures. In terms of corporate sales, I still think you are talking a very small %. Of more interest is the ability to buy like performing PCs for $50-100 less. To some companies that's a significant chunk of change scaled over the org....

Right now, however, we are not likely to see AMD hit big in the corporate board room, they are still 'the other brand'. Until they get the market share and position up there we will not see a change.

It is possible that will happen when the current cash strapped high school and colledge leavers enter business and remember their $$ effective Duron and Athlon systems from today... But then they may take the company line and stil think Intel, IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle... etc.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
 
I don't think companies give a rat's a$$ about a cpu fan or dead cpus.
Click to expand...

I guess you haven’t ever worked in the IT department of a corporation. I can tell you that we do care if a fan or especially if a CPU dies. And believe me HS fans die all the time it isn’t as rare as you may think. From what I've seen, most start to fail after 2 yrs of use. Luckily I haven’t seen a cpu die as a result of the HS fan failure, because we use Intel cpu's. Not AMD, AMD CPU's will fry if the HS fan dies. Yes it is a big deal if the CPU dies, that means downtime for the person using that pc (he or she may be working on an important project), it means IT needs to find a pc for that person to use while theirs is being fixed. It means more work for the IT staff that is being overworked already. A dead PC can F**k everything up. Having no thermal protection on their CPU’s tells me that AMD doesn’t take stability and reliability seriously, they are not ready for the corporate world.



(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?
 
Well, we have different experience then.
I talked to one of our tech guys when this came up a few weeks back, and he's never seen a dead CPU fan.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
 
Hmm I guess I didn't make it clear that it was not a motherboard temp sensor option it was a CPU temp option to shutdown when CPU reaches 70c or higher. I never said anything about motherboard temp shutdown. And I believe it takes a 1 gig athlon about 8 seconds to fry without a working HSF. For anyone that has a MSI K7T Turbo get the new bios and check it out. Also what i've heard that Athlon can handle up to like 90c, I know you should never have it this hot but if ur HSF fan goes out I believe the sensor would shutdown my CPU, I believe from 40-45c to 90c will be long enough for Bios to shutdown the computer!
 
I talked to one of our tech guys when this came up a few weeks back, and he's never seen a dead CPU fan.
Click to expand...
lol. uh ok.. HS fans <b>never</b> die. The IT staff i work with will get a kick out of hearing that. THanks.


(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?
 
what's your frigg'n point? if I throw 2 AMD puppies into pile of burning <A HREF="http://www.amd.com" target="_new">rubbish</A> I bet they'd both burn up just as fast.

"AMD/VIA...you are the weakest link, good bye!"
 
Nope, I didn't say that they never die.

Just very rarely in my experience. I don't think I've ever known a fan to die with in 2 years once it survived the first week or so.

We had about 3 dozen Dell machines at work that people had on their desks for e-mail & stuff. They were P200's so at least 5 or so years old, right? The tech I'm talking about did the purchasing & setup for those boxes and supervised or performed all the maintenance since then. He tells me that none have lost a CPU fan. Dead power supplies, hard drives, Zip, even some network cards and a MB. But no CPU fans.

What is everybody else's experience?


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
 
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