THGC Needs You -Team 40051

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From what I've read on other forums, the points benefit of using GPU acceleration isn't great. You should be making more points than you would on a single-core processor, but if you have a dual-core or better you're better off running the SMP client. My machine is about as weak as dual-cores come, and I get >800 ppd on it.

Now your x1950xt is no slouch wen it comes to GPUs, so I don't know if anyone else running a single GPU would be scoring much higher. Maybe nvidia's new cards can double the floating-point power, but FAH hasn't had good support from nvidia in the past. Hopefully the new cards get better support. This article brings a lot of hope.

Perhaps there will be a re-balancing of the points distribution once the SMP and GPU clients are out of Beta testing. I find it unlikely that my CPU can provide as much value to the FAH project as your GPU.
 
WOW!, you are getting >800ppd with dualcore ?
I thought the gpu was much more efficient than the cpu at folding.

I guess I will have to keep looking for a dual core 939 replacement cpu :)


How will points be awarded? What kind of impact do we expect this to have on work units and Folding team scores?
We will continue to award points in the same method as we’ve always used in Folding@Home. To award points for a WU, the WU is run on a benchmark machine. The points are currently awarded as 110 points/day as timed on the benchmark machine. We will continue with this method of calibrating points by adding an ATI X1900XT GPU to the new benchmark machine (otherwise, without a GPU, we could not benchmark GPU WU's on the benchmark machine!). Since Core_10 GPU WU's cannot be processed on the CPU alone, we must assign a new set of points for GPU WUs, and we are setting that to 440 points/day to reflect the added resources that GPU donors give to FAH. In cases where we need to use CPU time in addition to the GPU (as in the current GPU port), we will give extra points to compensate donors for the additional resources used. Right now, GPU WU's are set to 660 points/day. As we go through the beta process, we will examine the issue of points for WUs, as we understand the significance of this in compensating donor contributions.
Click to expand...

http://folding.stanford.edu/FAQ-ATI.html

now I am more confused :?
 
I've been thinking that FAH have really screwed up with their point distribution as a GPU is suppose to be 30X a single CPU but a single CPU is able (without SMB) to contribute about 150 points per day. Calculating that, if you are a GPU user you should be returning 4500 points per day but it never gets even close to that. I think FAH should review their process and who knows it may even give ATI some extra sales and make more users GPU users. Currently it seems that the SMB is a better contributer than the GPU when appreantly its 15X slower and doesn't run in Windows.
 
I think that it might make better sense for them to make the points system based on an estimate of how many GFlops a WU requires to complete. That would have to be some kind of average based on testing, but it should be doable. Then you would be awarded points solely on the basis of the work required to produce your contribution.

They could still award bonus points for large, advanced WUs, but I think if they're going to offer bonuses, then the work distribution server should assign WUs based on a kind of bidding process, where the best available WUs go to the fastest computers currently asking for work. That would reward those who bring the most to offer to FAH. The problem with the current system is that some people go so far as to kill/erase non-bonus WUs, which means that the number of incomplete WUs of these type rise rapidly. Others use IP blocking to avoid the servers that hand out regular WUs. Frankly, I just don't see the point to a rewards system when doing such tampering to take advantage of the bonus points is considered poor practice by the FAH community.
 
The new version of the catalyst driver (V7.2) is suppose to be compatible with FAH. Read more below.

http://forum.folding-community.org/
 
Hi Lyall,

The 30X faster part is actually a common misunderstanding. A GPU is 30X faster at VECTOR calculations than a standard CPU. :) All calculations are NOT vector calculations. A vector is a direction and velocity(or speed for the non-technical out there)

How most simulations are done: :)
It is my understanding that most molecular simulations are done using a 4D cartesian map with the 3 standard (l,w,h) dimensions and time as the 4th. 8) This can be called a 4D matrix or a 4D array. I prefer the term array and will use it in this discussion. 8)

Basicly this produces a cube with the molecule in the middle being moved thru time. The next position of each atom is based on its current and previous positions within the cube space. 8)

The big problem with this is its "granularity". The cube contains only so many points within its 3D space. Atoms can only move from point to point, they can't move part of a point. 8O The more points the more acurate but slower and more memory hungry. In a way you can think of this as doing the simulation with integer arithmetic only. Cubes with few points are very fast but lead to bigger and bigger errors the longer in simulated time this runs. Cubes with many points require large amounts of memory and are very slow in real time. 8O It can be troublesome to decide exactly how accurate it needs to be since accuracy takes longer, possibly a LOT longer :?

Vector arrays: 8)
Vectors aren't that easy to do with digital computers. 🙁 That has traditionally been the relm of analog computing and mostly limited to navigation for the last 30 years or so, when used at all. 😱 However, we do live in an analog world and one of the most worked on areas of digital representations of an analog world is in computer graphics, and especally moving graphics(the 3d shooter is king whether we like it or not). A graphics GPU is a processor specially designed to simulate an analog world. It isn't very good at regular computing stuff but is great at what it does do. :) It turns out the best way to do moving graphics is to represent everything as colored moving triangles. :) We, in this discussion, are mostly just interested in the moving part which is represented as a direction and a velocity, this is called a vector. 8)

How vectors are different: :?
The array no longer represents a cube of space moving thru time with an atom located here and there within the 3D array. 😀 Now our array consists of our time steps with each time containing an element for each atoms vector. In the cartesian map above there were always a lot of empty elements and each atom had to land squairly in an array element. 🙁 With vectors we don't keep spatial relationships for each atom, just directions and velocities. This saves a lot of memory but is very slow and difficult to keep track of for a standard CPU, however this is what a graphics GPU is designed to do all by its self. Each time step is a "frame". :)

OK, so what does it all mean? :roll:
Even though the GPU is 30X faster than the CPU (and that depends on which CPU you are talking about), this 30X just applies to Vector simulations, i.e. a Vector simulation is 30X faster on a GPU than on a CPU (which CPU?). But we don't do Vector simulations with CPUs because they are too slow, we do faster but less accurate spatial simulations which the GPU can't do. 8O
 
I'd just like to say...

that when you guys figure out how to control population (there are already too many people) and pay my electric bill, I'd be happy to donate the time and longevity of my three computer systems.

FX-60
FX-55
Pentium 4 2.4ghz

Until then, suck an egg!
 
quote: we do faster but less accurate spatial simulations which the GPU can't do. If thats the case then vector being exclusive and accuracy also, exclusive to the gpu, then there must be similar compensation. Using my 1900 I also notice my cpu at 100% as well , so your talking alot more hardware usage and of course power usage. To me its apples and oranges, its just that using the gpu client you seem to be getting one each, apple AND orange
 
We cant all be Daniel Boone, and being a volunteer is something you acquire, without limits. Reducing the worlds population would probably result in losing (never being born) the person that will solve these and other problems. I like the the glass half full, shaken though not stirred
 
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Congratulations. "Volunteerism" meanwhile you're contributing to several problems. You have any idea how much pollution all these computers are causing? ANY idea? Take a guess. Then multiply that by at least 10.
 
Hay jaydeejohn,

Value isn't based on "resources applied", it never is. Value is based on results. 😀 As for accuracy, spatial is accurate enough for now.

As far as the CPU being always busy, the CPU has to poll the graphics card to see when it's done since the card can't signal the CPU in any way. 🙁

Don't get too carried away with that explanation anyway, it is extreamly simplified. The subject already fills many text books and I'm sure will fill many more in the future. 8)

If you decide to go the sciense/technology route then once you have studied geometry, trig, and calculus then what is going on will be much more clear to you. 8)
 
You can probably run 1000 computers for a month or more for 1/100 of the environmental damage that's caused by taking a single overseas flight. If you want to act all superior, why don't you lambaste people who travel ridiculous distances just to sit on the beach?

In any case, where I come from the power is all hydroelectric. It's difficult to calculate the footprint of ~300W running 24/7, for all my computers put together. There are a million things that cost more the environment and society as a whole than people donating SPARE CPU cycles to a project that is helping medical research.

As far as cost to me, I'd normally have my computers on half of the time anyway, so if you want to work it out it's
(0.3kW)(12h/d)(365d/y)(0.05$/kWh) = $65/year. Peanuts.

As for environmental damage done by the hardware manufacturing/disposal, again, I already own the stuff, the damage has been done, and I'm not going to go buy more just to donate. The idea is to take advantage of the excess people already have and use the spare CPU time.

Do you consider how much environmental damage it costs to play video games? I doubt it. The point is that people accept certain minimal costs to do things they enjoy.
 
Since February is over, it's time to see how well we did. 1,374,725 points is a new record for THG, which translates to a little over 49,000 points/day. If we keep the same rate through March, we should hit the 1.5M target with the extra three days.

I hope Klamath is back soon.
 
Working on it.....

I'm in Crewe on a course all weekend and then Jersey until next Friday, I then have an assignment to clear for my MBA and can back to 1.) Building my Media Centre and 2.) Learning Linux and getting Ubuntu running in a VPC.

Hopefully by the 17th / 18th at the latest I will be back on line folding and this time on 6 cores..... 1x QX6700, 1 x E4300.

And if you want to talk carbon footprint I must confess I need to hang my head in shame. I might not drive but I probably fly 2 or 3 times a month (about once a quarter long haul) and when I am in London take the riverboat to work which is not the most environmently friendly form of public transport.

By comparision the fuel being burnt to power my PC's 24 x 7 is chicken feed, however I think folding is actually highly environmently friendly.

If people did not fold then additional research specific PC's would have to be made probably creating more pollution in their manufacture and definetly adding to the growing problem of disposal of the many bad chemicals.

Also if you are such an environmental activist 1.) what are you doing with 3 PC's???? and 2.) Why are you wasting power posting a message like that to the forum... Don't reply think of the carbon you will be wasting doing so..

I'm also debating if I could somehow fold on my work PC without information security doing their head in, just got a nice new 2 core 2Gb T60 laptop and since the most CPU stressful applications I run are Microsoft Project, Word, Excel & Outlook I thought I might try it and see if I can get away with it....
 
You can probably run 1000 computers for a month or more for 1/100 of the environmental damage that's caused by taking a single overseas flight. If you want to act all superior, why don't you lambaste people who travel ridiculous distances just to sit on the beach?

In any case, where I come from the power is all hydroelectric. It's difficult to calculate the footprint of ~300W running 24/7, for all my computers put together. There are a million things that cost more the environment and society as a whole than people donating SPARE CPU cycles to a project that is helping medical research.

As far as cost to me, I'd normally have my computers on half of the time anyway, so if you want to work it out it's
(0.3kW)(12h/d)(365d/y)(0.05$/kWh) = $65/year. Peanuts.

As for environmental damage done by the hardware manufacturing/disposal, again, I already own the stuff, the damage has been done, and I'm not going to go buy more just to donate. The idea is to take advantage of the excess people already have and use the spare CPU time.

Do you consider how much environmental damage it costs to play video games? I doubt it. The point is that people accept certain minimal costs to do things they enjoy.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of flights. Flighty people don't talk about flying in forums much. But very good point. You should lead the way to greener flying.

As for hydro electricity...bravo! Maybe you should campaign for that. It's good to see you joining my little escapade. 🙂

I know that people accept "minimal" costs to do things they enjoy. The problem is when you have billions doing just that, it's not so minimal anymore. Thus, the rant.

As for you not shutting down your systems...try it. 🙂
 
You know, come to think of it...I never even mentioned electricity use...I mentioned my ENERGY BILL being PAID. LOL You guys aren't too bright twisting my words like that. My original post(if you'll kindly waste energy scrolling up) had to do with POPULATION control.

Gene sequencing...umm, yeah. Just what we need is to LIVE FOREVER, when we can't control how many babies we have...

I mentioned PAYING for my THREE computers being on. I shut MINE down when not in use, thank you. 🙂 NOW, eat your egg?
 
Um, I don't think FAH is working on making you live forever. The point is to live what time you have better. I could stand to live in a world where there is a cure for Alzheimer's.

As for population control, a lot of developed countries are actually shrinking if you exclude immigration. I remember a section of an elective course I took that showed a strong correlation between rising standards of living/income and smaller family sizes. If you want to address population control, put your volunteer time towards development work in impoverished communities.
 
Its good to see the QX6700 being put back to work. I so want 1. Maybe next year. You might of heard that FAH is "getting close to releasing a windows SMP. I'm not really sure what "getting close" means though.

http://forum.folding-community.org/
 
They should make it so that the upcoming Windows Home Server will be able to capitalize on any unused computers connected to it. Have FAH run like a server application instead of having to be installed on every single computer.
 
@JonnyDough: That would probably include some major legal issues unless it was designed to be voluntarily enabled, it would also cause potential security holes and wouldn't provide any return on investment for microsoft unless they made a deal with stanford for something or another (and stanford probably wouldn't do it).

@anyone: is there anyway to compress things before i submit them? because i really dont' think i can carry on submitting 8mb WU's, if i turn off 'allow recieval of large WU's (>5mb)" <-- or something like that - would it stop downloading these WU's because it seems the actual WU is small but the upload is big and i dont' know if that option would make a difference, does anyone know? (i know that i can try it, but then there's a chance it wouldn't download it anyway...)

Thanks,
Ara
 
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