Vesuvan Doppleganger copying a Volrath's Shapeshifter (Cla..

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Yes, I've read the copy rules, but last night this one was too much to
wrap my brain around. I think we got the right answers, but I wanted
to double check. There were a few scenarios...

Volrath’s Shapeshifter
1UU
Creature — Shapeshifter
0/1
As long as Volrath’s Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your
graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text
of that card, and has "2: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has
that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and
toughness.)
2: Discard a card.

Vesuvan Doppelganger
3UU
Creature — Doppelganger
0/0
As Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play, you may choose a creature in
play. If you do, Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play as a copy of
that creature except for its color and gains "At the beginning of your
upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature
except for its color. If you do, this creature gains this ability."

1. VS is in play with some random non-creature card in the graveyard.
Another player casts the VD (no, not that kind of VD) and chooses the
VS. That player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is VD?

2. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is the VD?

3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then that player plays a
second VD, choosing his first VD. What are the VD's?

Hopefully that's not WAY too many acronyms.

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Yes, I've read the copy rules, but last night this one was too much to
> wrap my brain around. I think we got the right answers, but I wanted
> to double check. There were a few scenarios...
>
> Volrath’s Shapeshifter
> 1UU
> Creature — Shapeshifter
> 0/1
> As long as Volrath’s Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your
> graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text
> of that card, and has "2: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has
> that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and
> toughness.)
> 2: Discard a card.
>
> Vesuvan Doppelganger
> 3UU
> Creature — Doppelganger
> 0/0
> As Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play, you may choose a creature in
> play. If you do, Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play as a copy of
> that creature except for its color and gains "At the beginning of your
> upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature
> except for its color. If you do, this creature gains this ability."
>
> 1. VS is in play with some random non-creature card in the graveyard.
> Another player casts the VD (no, not that kind of VD) and chooses the
> VS. That player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is VD?

A Volrath's Shapeshifter with the full text of Scryb Sprites. The "you"
in the crypto-Shapeshifter's text refers to its controller; VD doesn't
copy any effects on the creature it's xeroxing, just the underlying
card.

> 2. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
> graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
> player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is the VD?

As above.

> 3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
> graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
> player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then that player plays a
> second VD, choosing his first VD. What are the VD's?

As above.

--
Let's not let this drift into a topic about playing your alignment. I
have too much to do to be able to properly ridicule and post whore.
- Rob Singers

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Yes, I've read the copy rules, but last night this one was too much to
>wrap my brain around. I think we got the right answers, but I wanted
>to double check. There were a few scenarios...
>
>Volrath's Shapeshifter 1UU Creature - Shapeshifter
>0/1 As long as ~ is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
> card, ~ has the full text of that card, and has "2: Discard a card.". (~ has
> that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and toughness.) /
> 2: Discard a card.

Notice that this is NOT a copy effect.

>Vesuvan Doppelganger 3UU Creature - Doppelganger
>0/0 As ~ comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do, ~
> comes into play as a copy of that creature except for its color and gains "At
> the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of
> target creature except for its color. If you do, this creature gains this
> ability."

....while this is. A VS that comes into play while a VD is the top card of your
graveyard will NOT get to copy anything immediately, as you process "as this
comes into play" effects before applying continuous effects like VS's. But
if it lives until your next upkeep (which is problematic, since it will be
0/0), it does get to use the VD triggered copy ability.

>1. VS is in play with some random non-creature card in the graveyard.
>Another player casts the VD (no, not that kind of VD) and chooses the
>VS. That player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is VD?

That VD is, from the ground up, a copy of the VS (layer 2) with the VS' ability
(layer 3, though this is disputed) giving it the full text of the Scryb
Sprites. It still has the VS expansion symbol and picture.

>2. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
>graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
>player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. What is the VD?

Again, it is a VS - no GB is involved, because copy effects can't copy noncopy
effects - with the text of the Sprites.

>3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
>graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
>player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then that player plays a
>second VD, choosing his first VD. What are the VD's?

The first VD, as in 2, is a VS with the text of the Sprites. The second VD
is the same thing; the VS effect isn't a copy effect, so its effect can't be
copied, but the VS text the VD gets from copying the first VS sees the same
Sprites that the first one does.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

>> 3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
>> graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
>> player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then that player plays a
>> second VD, choosing his first VD. What are the VD's?
>
> The first VD, as in 2, is a VS with the text of the Sprites. The second VD
> is the same thing;

I'd say there is a difference between the two VDs. The second VD has
two triggered abilities: one of the first VD and one of its own.
--

David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>> 3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling player's
>>> graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the VS/GB. That
>>> player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then that player plays a
>>> second VD, choosing his first VD. What are the VD's?
>>
>> The first VD, as in 2, is a VS with the text of the Sprites. The second VD
>> is the same thing;
>
>I'd say there is a difference between the two VDs. The second VD has
>two triggered abilities: one of the first VD and one of its own.

A VD copy of a VD doesn't trigger multiple times during an upkeep, allowing you
to copy multiple creatures that upkeep. (How this works is actually still being
debated, yes, 11 years after the card appeared...) It just triggers once.

If you want to think of it as "the VD copying it overwrites the original VD
triggered ability with its own" that'll help you remember, though that's NOT
what happens as such (more of an 'underwrites' if anything). Similarly, an
Unstable Shapeshifter that comes into play with another one already in play
doesn't make the second one trigger TWICE each time something comes into play
after that.

(The rules aren't actually exactly clear on _where_/_how_ the 'extra' abilities
acquired during the copy process, by these two, live or are acquired, if you
look... and it has in fact been discussed during the last week or so.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 30 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> 3. VS is in play with a Grizzly Bears in the controlling
>>>> player's graveyard. Another player casts the VD and chooses the
>>>> VS/GB. That player has a Scryb Sprites in his graveyard. Then
>>>> that player plays a second VD, choosing his first VD. What are
>>>> the VD's?
>>>
>>> The first VD, as in 2, is a VS with the text of the Sprites. The
>>> second VD is the same thing;
>>
>> I'd say there is a difference between the two VDs. The second VD
>> has two triggered abilities: one of the first VD and one of its
>> own.
>
> A VD copy of a VD doesn't trigger multiple times during an upkeep,
> allowing you to copy multiple creatures that upkeep. (How this works
> is actually still being debated, yes, 11 years after the card
> appeared...) It just triggers once.

I want to believe this but is there another reason for me than the
fact that _you_ told me? I guess I have to wait until you're done
debating.

> If you want to think of it as "the VD copying it overwrites the
> original VD triggered ability with its own" that'll help you
> remember, though that's NOT what happens as such (more of an
> 'underwrites' if anything). Similarly, an Unstable Shapeshifter that
> comes into play with another one already in play doesn't make the
> second one trigger TWICE each time something comes into play after
> that.
>
> (The rules aren't actually exactly clear on _where_/_how_ the
> 'extra' abilities acquired during the copy process, by these two,
> live or are acquired, if you look... and it has in fact been
> discussed during the last week or so.)

What about a VD copying an US or vice versa? I guess they would get an
extra extra ability but I don't see the difference.
--
thanks,
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> A VD copy of a VD doesn't trigger multiple times during an upkeep, allowing
>you to copy multiple creatures that upkeep. (How this works is
actually still
>being debated, yes, 11 years after the card appeared...) It just
triggers once.

Wow. Is there anything that supports such a direct contradiction of
the rules, or is this ruling the "just do it" variety?


> Similarly, an
> Unstable Shapeshifter that comes into play with another one already in play
> doesn't make the second one trigger TWICE each time something comes into play
> after that.

It wouldn't do that after the first iteration in any case. Well, if
you were copying another VD copy it would repeat a duplicate once.

The best I see, and admittedly I may be missing some big issues, is to
add something like this:
"If the effect give a copy ability to the copy as part of the copying
process, multiple instances of the same ability given are removed".

Any thoughts on the behind-the-scenes discussion you may wish to
share?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

<snip

>>Volrath's Shapeshifter 1UU Creature - Shapeshifter
>>0/1 As long as ~ is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
>> card, ~ has the full text of that card, and has "2: Discard a card.". (~ has
>> that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and toughness.) /
>> 2: Discard a card.
>

<snip>

Is it safe to say that the above part that's currently worded "~ has
the full text of that card" should be interpreted as somehing akin to
"~ has, in addition to THIS text, the full text of that card"?

One of the things that kinda confused about this whole interaction was
the interaction of the acquired text and the original text.

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Caurador <caurador@xfilesfan.com> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> A VD copy of a VD doesn't trigger multiple times during an upkeep, allowing
>>you to copy multiple creatures that upkeep. (How this works is
>actually still
>>being debated, yes, 11 years after the card appeared...) It just
>triggers once.
>
>Wow. Is there anything that supports such a direct contradiction of
>the rules, or is this ruling the "just do it" variety?

Pretty much the latter, even at this point. I'll note on up that it's actually
being discussed outside the group of gurus Elsewhere, which ought to put some
pressure on us to actually get a working model...

Watch this space. (Some of this I'm actually figuring out, yet again, as I'm
typing this - some of the copy-effect stuff I pretty much have to do that
every time with.)

To throw more confusion into the midst, the last time I heard about it, a few
years ago, a VD copying a US, or vice versa, is supposed to get the additional
ability... right up until the next time either of the triggered abilities
-resolves- and copies something else, at which point you return to only
having the additional triggered ability that copy effect "added". (Thus if
your VD copied a US, it would have both extra abilities up until one resolved
after triggering. If the US ability was the first to trigger and resolve,
and it's not copying -another- VD of course, it goes back to working just
like a US; if the VD ability was the first to trigger and resolve, and it's
not copying another US or the same US, it'll go back to working just like
a VD afterwards.

[Which means that I may have got it wrong: if your VD decides one upkeep to
copy another VD, it may end up having the triggered ability twice for the
-next- upkeep... but the first one to resolve, assuming it doesn't copy a
VD again, will wipe it back to having just one of the added ability. I'll ask
on up to see how things actually work right now.]

>It wouldn't do that after the first iteration in any case. Well, if
>you were copying another VD copy it would repeat a duplicate once.

Right, that may be what I've missed here.

>The best I see, and admittedly I may be missing some big issues, is to
>add something like this:
>"If the effect give a copy ability to the copy as part of the copying
>process, multiple instances of the same ability given are removed".
>
>Any thoughts on the behind-the-scenes discussion you may wish to share?

Other than "Ick bleah no don't touch that"? Not right now...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>>>Volrath's Shapeshifter 1UU Creature - Shapeshifter
>>>0/1 As long as ~ is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
>>> card, ~ has the full text of that card, and has "2: Discard a card.". (~ has
>>> that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and toughness.) /
>>> 2: Discard a card.
><snip>
>
>Is it safe to say that the above part that's currently worded "~ has
>the full text of that card" should be interpreted as somehing akin to
>"~ has, in addition to THIS text, the full text of that card"?

No. It is safe to say exactly the opposite, in fact; the effect OF this
static ability "overwrites" the text that generates the ability. While it's
got something else's text, you can't 'see' through that text to the VS' own
text.

Each time you look at the VS, you apply all applicable continuous effects in
order, one of which is its own, so if there's a creature card on top of your
graveyard it always ends up looking like that creature with the "2: Discard a
card" ability added. But still with its own picture and expansion symbol. If
the creature card changes, you have to look at the VS again to see if it's
changed, and in the process of looking at it you find you have to apply its
own ability to see what it looks like.

You -don't- want it to have its own text IN ADDITION TO the text given, because
that leads right into an endless "stack" of "this has the text of that creature
card, plus its own, and now we have to apply both texts, oh look, this has
the text of that creature card, plus its own, and now...". We'd rather not
crash the game by having that happen.

>One of the things that kinda confused about this whole interaction was
>the interaction of the acquired text and the original text.

The acquired text overwrites the original. The original can't be seen through
the acquired text, but the effect giving it the acquired text is still there
as long as the top card's a creature card. (If it's not, the effect Does
Nothing and you can see the original text, including the separate-on-its-own-
line "2: Discard a card".)

Does this help, or make any sense? I can try to explain another way or two if
you need me to...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.