Vista - this review, its promise and DRM

[exisnet]

... I would wonder if at some point Microsoft brings in a "Critical Patch" that introduces the nighmare into XP with no one knowing, until its too late.

Thank you for bring up that point...

 

[HotFoot]

Good link. I'll do what I can to inform people. My sister has a new computer, and it came with XP and a coupon for Vista. Previously, I had actually told her to "upgrade". Now I think she shouldn't. Chances of her playing a DX10 game: 0. I tried my luck with getting her to use Ubuntu, but she uses software from work and she needs Windows for it. Pitty.

 

[sailer]

... I would wonder if at some point Microsoft brings in a "Critical Patch" that introduces the nighmare into XP with no one knowing, until its too late.

Thank you for bring up that point...

I just had to put some cheery thought into all this mess. Let me see, where did I leave that copy of Windows 98?

 

[photographer]

Oh really? If Microsoft really cared about the consumer, they would have provided a simple OS and told Sony etc to make their own add-ins for the DRM.

Sony is not capable of writing everything that is necessary to support every facet of DRM for every manufacturer. And they certainly aren't capable of writing the foundation for DRM in Windows.

We download or buy all kinds of software that isn't part of the OS as it is. All M$ had to do was to make a port of some type so the software could be installed by the person that wanted to use it. That's called freedom, the freedom for the individual to make a choice of what he wants to do.

I tend to agree as I could care less about watching video on a computer. In fact I would prefer that none of this crap was ever pushed into the OS arena but unfortunately I'm in the distinct minority. So since everyone seems to think that a computer is a TV and they want to watch videos on them, companies like Sony are bound to want to make money on it. They know that can't do it with all of the workarounds currently available so they have pushed a whole new group of requirements.

As it is, they are trying to impose a type of fascism that says, "You will do what we tell you to do, you will say what we tell you to say, you will think what we tell you to think. You have no other choice".

Hmmmm, sounds like Apple ;>)

Sony, etc. does not have M$ over a barrel.

I suggest you speak with a good accountant. The fact is that the law is on the side of those pushing DRM. And Sony would clean Microsofts clock legally speaking. There wouldn't be any competition or argument. DRM pushers have developed a solid foundation and nothing you, I or Microsoft can do would change that.

Microsoft could have simply maintained that they were a computer software and OS company and that if Sony, etc. wanted to have restrictions, then they were free to impose them.

Given the debacle with the root kit, I hardly think I would have Sony install anything into an OS.

That way, only those who wanted to go through the DRM process would have gone through it, while the rest of us could do what we wanted.

I'm all about it ! But if you think that companies like Time-Warner Cable, Charter, Comcast and others that are providing internet access are going to ignore the developing opportunities in media marketing then you are extremely mistaken.

That way, if Sony, etc. lost their shirt with stuff people wouldn't buy, they would learn a lesson and produce something that they could sell. As it is, the consumers will have to pay for it whether they use it or not, both in increased costs and slower performance.

I agree however there is a huge amount of money pushing these agendas. Money that talks to "all the right people". Money owns the political process, the networks and the companies making the content. Yep, the great grease. You can surely rail against it all you like however for some reason I don't think the opinions of a few thousand people are going to matter when the winds of progress blow managed media through the internet.

 

[photographer]

M$ is forcing the hardware manufacturers into their DRM scheme. I'm not against M$ with regards to XP.

I'd really like to know why you believe that Microsoft is the key player in pushing DRM ? They aren't. They are including the DRM foundation in the OS as people want hi-def. Why ? I have no idea. But if people are asking for it, MS is going to supply it.

 

[The-Darkening]

That's it, I will pirate my hardware from now on. Where can I download an 8800 GTX?

j/k.


Serious now, I think this is outrageous but the majority of people won't do a thing about it. The pirates will crack DRM and presto. The non-pirates won't even know or notice a difference. I hate that the non-pirates always have the hardest time fighting against copy-protections that ruin their machines (Starforce Anyone?), stupid limitations like "You can't copy this to your mp3 player" and now this.[/i]

 

[gomerpile]

Hardware is hackable with boot strap scripts to alter the way protection reads information. Just read about the hardware and make sure its flashable. Resourse decoders other terms are resourse hackers can do anything no task too small for it.
Anyone remember in visual basic class developing your first basic media player everything is hackable and companies like sony and others want people to think its not possable and I know thats not true.
Safedisk 4 was suppose to be unbeatable too, not so a few months later I copied my first safedisk 4 game yep. Love the game of protection makes me laugh.

 

[Zorg]

You are right fair usage is important, but that pales in comparison to the revelations in the article. Don't loose sight of what is happening to the computer industry. Am I the only one that can see the gravity of what M$ is trying to pull off?

Your not the only one, please join us @ http://badvista.fsf.org/

Thanks for the link it is somewhat comforting to know that this info is getting out there. Everyone should check it out.

 

[Zyxthior]

I suggest you speak with a good accountant. The fact is that the law is on the side of those pushing DRM. And Sony would clean Microsofts clock legally speaking. There wouldn't be any competition or argument. DRM pushers have developed a solid foundation and nothing you, I or Microsoft can do would change that.

Being an Accountant (I'm not sure if I'm a 'good accountant' and I'm not sure if 'good' is synonomous with being a CPA--which I am), I'm not really sure what I'm suppose to agree with here. Can you provide some link or some basis to your theory that those poor, resourceless, individuals at the startup company in Redmond, WA (Microsoft) is somehow being held over a barrel at gunpoint, behind told by MULTIPLE Hollywood studios (not just Sony) that they HAVE to build DRM into the O/S.......OR ELSE!!!

That Microsoft has wrangled with the US Department of Justice and the Europeon Union on issues, and pretty much come out unscathed, I hardly think they're quaking in their boots from any perceived 'threat' from Sony.

And if you look at the financial statements of Microsoft and Sony (being an acccountant, that's what I do) for the past 3 years you see some interesting things:
Microsoft, for the past 3 years (Gross Sales and Net Income (after all expenses are paid/incurred All numbers in BILLIONS of USD):
Sales - Net Income
$44B - $12.6B
$40B - $12.2B
$37B - $8.2B

And now Sony:
$64B - $1.1B
$67B - $1.5B
$71B - $0.8B

And more importantly, lets talk about Cash Flow from ongoing operations for the past 3 years (Net Cash coming in the door from normal recurring business activities):
Microsoft - $14B, $16B, $14.6B
Sony - $3.4B, $6B, $6B

In no way shape or form is Sony some huge beast that has Microsoft quaking in its boots. Microsoft is more profitable and has a much better cash flow than Sony in recent years. This is not a "David vs. Goliath" kind of deal, it would be a "Goliath vs. Goliath".

But I don't believe it to be the case at ALL...

Now being an Accountant, I tend to believe a different theory about why Microsoft is implementing DRM. Management at Microsoft has taken a good long look at Apple. Apple's IPod and ITunes sales have turned HUGE profits. They're the market leader as music industry LOVES Apple's DRM policy--Apple's profit comes not only from the Sale of the Hardware, but from IT'S cut of its ITunes sales. Charge $1.99 per song (or whatever it is). Keep $1, send $1 back to the music company (or whatever the split is). Do this a few million times....

And earlier post in this thread, someone said something to the effect that Microsoft wouldn't have anything to gain financially being a 'distributor' of Hi-Def content. I think Apple has beyond ALL possible doubt proven that there is INDEED something to be gained by being a 'distributor' of digital content.

Microsoft is positioning itself to be the distributor Hi-Def digital content making Windows Vista so full of DRM. I'm sure they're talking to Hollywood going "We can safely and securely distribute your conent--even better than Apple."

Microsoft exists for one sole purpose (just like any other business)--to make money and to find new ways to make money. I cannot fault them or any business for doing this....and they are using their weight to push the cost down onto their 3rd party supplies (ATi and nVidia for example) to make sure they make hardware that is compliant.

Unfortunately this all comes from "old executives" trains of thought. They believe that they can still CONTROL the media. As Muselix64 has proven, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM's can be bypassed. Strip the DRM off the content, and suddenly all the imbedded hardware DRM no longer matters. The unintended consequence of spending millions of dollars to make sure the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray AACS encryption was better than DVD's CCS encryption, and locking down the hardware to make sure no-one could easily copy something along the data route, has created the second coming of DVD Jon.

Because MPAA and RIAA don't believe in Fair Use polices, individuals who do have created tools that will allow 'fair use'. And now Pirates are going to put those tools to good use.

 

[ScottyDog]

Zyxthior

Outstanding analysis of what is really behind the implementation of MS's new business model and how they intend to use Monopoly power to implement it.

..and for those that say MS is being dragged into DRM, I suggest a simple google on licensing fees for MS DRM. They are making a significant amount of money already before Vista, licensing and using it’s DRM with Internet commerce.

As Zorg has been pointing out, MS is trying to lock down the whole PC Industry using DRM to enforce the business model. If MS is successful, you will not be able to buy any software or hardware that does not comply with the new DRM design guidelines. It is not just about premium content but the design of the PC envisioned by MS and its partners.

NVIDIA just issued a press release apologizing for the delay of Vista Drivers where they wrote:

"Windows Vista has completely changed the driver interface, similar in magnitude to what happened between Windows 3.1 and 95, and you’ve got a “perfect storm” of conditions for driver development. The end result is that for Windows Vista, two 20M line drivers have to be completely re-written (one for G80 and one from all previous architectures). In other words, this isn’t a simple port, it’s a radical departure from the way things were written before."

(See the whole thing over at: http://forumz.tomshardware.com/software/Nvidia-8800-drivers-Vista-ftopict233832.html)

Peter Gutman is being vindicated and proved correct when he said this would be the end of unified drivers based on hardware design and performance but rather the dictates of DRM.

Think for a minute what NVIDIA is saying...they have to re-write 20 million lines of code to enable Vista Drivers for the xx series and another 20 million for the 8 series.

How is some company going to be able to produce hardware for Linux if this is what they had to do to comply with the new standards. There are not enough Linux boxes yet to justify that type of expense.

They are trying to turn our computers into an appliance that you do not control any longer.

I suspect that muselixx64 works for one the “Trusted Computing” companies and decided to put a stop to this crap before it is unleashed on the rest of us. The attention by the mainstream press certainly has brought the DRM issue out into the open.

 

[qwazzy]

Wow, I'm really debating over the fact if I should get Vista.. It seems that every single day, for the past month, there have been new and worse things about Vista on this forum.

 

[sailer]

Wow, I'm really debating over the fact if I should get Vista.. It seems that every single day, for the past month, there have been new and worse things about Vista on this forum.

I've got the same feeling. I have been planning a new build around June, at which time I would start with Vista. As it is, I'm starting to rethink the whole idea. I've started to wonder if Win XP64 Pro could run DX10 and also get around the DRM thing. Main thing is that I wanted to migrate into 64 bit computing. The other option I'm thinking about is Linux 64, but I'm not sure of its compatiability for games, etc. At least I have a few months to think things through.

 

[booyaah]

I could sum up this thread by saying Microsoft is trying to infringe on our admendment rights.

 

[306maxi]

I could sum up this thread by saying Microsoft is trying to infringe on our admendment rights.

WTF shut up.

 

[dasickninja]

Dude, its really not that bad. So far the only thing that's annoyed me about Vista in the 6 months that I've both tested and actually used the retail versions is the transparent theme. And that is quickly remedied by anyone that knows how to set a wallpaper. If you can afford it, go ahead. If you can't by all means wait and people like me will push for increased driver support in both versions and will be doing our best to but out home brew drivers to keep things rolling till the vendors release the real stuff, not to mention finding ways to make the Vista experience better. I'll get flamed by the anti Vista crew for saying this, but to me it is an improvement over XP. Anyone that wants to call me out on it can go right ahead.

 

[qwazzy]

Great thread.

 

[photographer]

I find it hard to believe that the company that has contracts on over 500 musicians here in the US alone only netted $1.15B. And we must ask how all of this relates to the may faces of Sony :

Sony Corporation
Sony Pictures Entertainment
Sony Pictures Entertainment (Japan) Inc.
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment
Sony Pictures Releasing International
Sony Pictures Television
Sony Broadcast Media Co., Ltd.
Sony Online Entertainment
Sony Energy Devices Corporation
Sony Chemicals Corporation
So-net Entertainment Corporation
Sony Pictures Releasing (U.S.)
Sony Pictures Classics
Sony Entertainment Television
Sony Computer Entertainment
Sony Magnetic Products Inc. of Americ
Sony Human Capital Corporation
Sony Ericsson
Sony PCL Inc.
Sony Electronics
Sony Semiconductor Kyushu Corporation
Sony Siroisi Semiconductor Inc.
Sony Supply Chain Solutions Inc.
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
Sony Life Insurance Co. Ltd.
Sony Assurance Inc.
Sony Bank Inc
Sony Financial Holdings Inc.
Sony Finance International, Inc.
Sony Computer Science Laboratories, Inc.
Sony Broadcast Media Co., Ltd.
Sony Facility Management Corporation
Sony BMG Masterworks
Sony BMG Nashville
Sony of Canada Ltd
Sony Wonder.
Epic Records
TriStar Pictures
Legacy Recordings
Columbia Pictures
Destination Films
Triumph Films


BTW, I found that part of Sony is in turn owned by Bertelsmann AG which consists of 6 corporate divisions including:

RTL Group, a European broadcaster
Gruner & Jahr (officially Gruner + Jahr, a magazine publisher (biggest in Europe and second biggest world wide)
Prisma
BMG (Bertelsmann Music Group)
Random House, the world's largest trade book publisher (popular literature)
Direct Group, the world's largest book and music club group
arvato, an international media service provider and editing house Doubleday Canada

Also I'd love to quote Ben Disraeli here 😀

 

[306maxi]

Dude, its really not that bad. So far the only thing that's annoyed me about Vista in the 6 months that I've both tested and actually used the retail versions is the transparent theme. And that is quickly remedied by anyone that knows how to set a wallpaper. If you can afford it, go ahead. If you can't by all means wait and people like me will push for increased driver support in both versions and will be doing our best to but out home brew drivers to keep things rolling till the vendors release the real stuff, not to mention finding ways to make the Vista experience better. I'll get flamed by the anti Vista crew for saying this, but to me it is an improvement over XP. Anyone that wants to call me out on it can go right ahead.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a moron or hasn't used Vista.

 

[sailer]

I'll keep your words in mind. I have about four months before I do the build, so by then there will be a lot more information, both good and bad, to consider. I read that a service pack is already being tested, so maybe some of the bad issues will be solved by then as well.

 

[ScottyDog]

The may have only netted $1.15B but that was from 64B income.

A clue would be how much they pay their senior management which is deducted from the top line but I will defer to our resident accountant.

306maxi

I have Vista installed and I disagree. I guess in your play book that makes me a moron.

Maybe you could explain to the "morons" what is so great about an OS that takes away your constitutional rights to privacy and limits fair use.

 

[Zyxthior]

photographer,

Excellent point to bring up all the various 'entities' of Sony. The $'s I'm quoting is "Sony" insofar as it is a 100% owned subsidiary of Sony, or Sony's portion of its profit (in the case of 50/50 joint venture with another corporation--Sonic Ericson for example).

You can take a look at Sony's lastest 20-F filing with the SEC (for the year ended December 31, 2006) and you can see it lists numerous wholly-owned subsidiares. I do believe we are getting a pretty complete picture of Sony's financial position with what I wrote.

Scottydog, 306maxi, DaSickNinja,

I feel like we're arguing two different things here. I'll admit my experience with Vista was up to Beta 2. Everything 306maxi and DaSickNinja are saying about 'ease of use' and 'future driver support' I completely agree with. Vista on the surface, and in the engine for that matter, are improvements over XP. If you pulled out the DRM, I don't think we'd be having a discussion. The arguments about 'lack of driver support', 'incompatibilty', 'having to upgrade harware', 'already holes in security' are all old arguments and you hear them every time a new O/S is introduced. Drivers get updated, new applications are released, people upgrade, and holes get patched. This is nothing new and should stop anyone from upgrading. If you don't want to upgrade immediately...that's fine. Nothing is wrong with waiting for a bit. I waited for a bit when Windows XP first came out and the prospect from upgrading from my trusted Win98 seemed daunting. Looking back, I wish I had moved to XP alot sooner.

I think Scottydog, and myself for that matter, are more concerned about what you don't see--and that's this DRM that MS is embedding within the O/S. I think for many people, it's a non-issue--they simply don't care and it won't impact them. I think for others, those that think playing Hi-Def content on their PC is a given--will have a rude awakening down the road.

The 'its against my Amendment rights' argument is foolish. The counter-point is simple "Don't use MS Vista then." No one is theoritically "forcing' you to use Vista or any Microsoft product (there are alternative like Mac OSX and Linus--don't arguing the 'userablity'--I'm simply saying there are alternatives and you're not 'forced' to use MS...)

And I think the concern is that this was somewhat 'secretly' built in to further MS's own agenda....which to a certain degree I understand. They're a corporation and their first objective is to make money and increase profitability. The problem is that Microsoft has become global Monopoly in the area of Operating systems....and now they are using that monopoly base to make themselves monopolies in other areas...further increasing their dominance.

Oh...Sony's Executive compensation: Around $23M to 29 corporate officers and directors--that's roughly $786,000 per person in total compensation (no including Stock Options). Obviously the CEO is getting a big chunk that the other officers and such. It's not that bad--Japanese companies tend to have a more conservative financial management style than US companies--even in executive compensation (Home Depot's CEO's 'retirement' package comes to mind...).

 

[MxM]

It's all ridiculous. First priority should be not alienating the majority of customers who just want to enjoy entertainment content and are happy enough to pay the artists/producers for it. All this DRM crap does is annoy this crowd. People who are already willing to pirate the content are presumably smart enough to figure out ways around the content protection anyway, so in the end the companies have stopped zero pirating and annoyed their faithful customers

Well, I don't know how true this is. My Girlfriend'ss mom goes to bingo and she buy movies that are pirated. Whether DVD rips converted to VCd format or movies, captured from the theathers (you see people getting up) and then converted to VCD...

The thing is that no amount DRM will stop that! If movie was captured in the theater, then there is no way for Vista to know that it is pirated version...

 

[pkellmey]

As has been stated repeatedly, this is not an MS agenda - DRM has been out there long before MS supported it with Vista. The only difference is that they are the first OS that can support it across the whole OS instead of a single app or hardware device. They are simply doing the thing that will give them legal protection - "We have tried to implement more stringent anti-piracy support this time around", make them money through upgrades, and shown that they are "technical innovators" to gain cred on the technical streets. DRM has been here for awhile and it is just now going to be implemented at the Desktop. I really don't see much of an issue and the facts that very few outside of the technical sites are decrying the policy and that corporate pre-sales are running higher than the industry expected, the public apparently doesn't mind either.

 

[Zyxthior]

We can agree to disagree then.

I'll say again I don't believe that Microsoft is being 'forced' into anything. If Microsoft is willing to thumb their nose at US Department of Justice and the European Union for their monopolistic behavior--they are not being forced into ANYTHING. Steve Balmer, Microsoft CEO is a Bulldog--say what you will about the ridiculous video of him prancing around a stage that was on the net a few years ago--the man has done very well in positioning MS as a dominant international powerhouse. Microsoft does not 'cower', Microsoft makes others 'cower'.

As far as doing it for 'street cred'? That is ludicrous. Perhaps if they were an up and coming operating system that was trying to gain ground and gain users it would make sense. Microsoft OWNS the O/S market--to the degree of 99%. Companies design stuff to work with Microsoft, not the other way around. Microsoft has NOTHING to prove to anyone. Microsoft does not care about 'Street cred'. They want (and have) Market dominance and new revenue streams.

But you are right that it is a bit of a non-issue except for a few of us Techie people who are I think just beginning to understand the impact of Vista's DRM policy. I FIRMLY believe MS is setting themselves up to be the next 'Apple Itunes' distributor of Hi-Def movies--and end users are going to pay the price for it.

 

[Zorg]

As has been stated repeatedly, this is not an MS agenda - DRM has been out there long before MS supported it with Vista. The only difference is that they are the first OS that can support it across the whole OS instead of a single app or hardware device. They are simply doing the thing that will give them legal protection - "We have tried to implement more stringent anti-piracy support this time around", make them money through upgrades, and shown that they are "technical innovators" to gain cred on the technical streets. DRM has been here for awhile and it is just now going to be implemented at the Desktop. I really don't see much of an issue and the facts that very few outside of the technical sites are decrying the policy and that corporate pre-sales are running higher than the industry expected, the public apparently doesn't mind either.

Of course the public doesn't mind, they can barely find the on/off button let alone understand the ramifications of DRM in Vista. By the looks of some of the posts here, I'm wondering if some of the people here understand the ramifications. A friend of mine is going to provide the article, in my signature, to DARPA. Let's see if they have any concerns about the fact that their computers can be "bricked" by a driver revocation from M$. Not to mention all the other good stuff in the article. I am hoping for an antitrust suit, or at least a non-HD version of Vista without all of the DRM pigsh!t, and I am usually against the lawsuit approach. I will not be using Vista until long after support for XP runs out. As was said earlier, if you don't like it don't buy it. I won't buy it.