Volrath's Shapeshifter

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ok I have a couple questions, more so why these things happen....
I have a Volrath's Shapeshifter out and I have a Cephalid Inkshrouder
in the graveyard. Now say i discard a Tradewind rider to the Volrath's
Shapeshifter (which is an inkshrouder) to activate his ability of being
unblockable and not be the target of spells or abilities. The Tradewind
Rider hits the graveyard now do I have a Tradewind rider that can't be
targeted or unblocked till the end of turn?

I know it works with Flowstone Hellion with the Shapeshifter, where you
activate his ability 11 times than discard a Phyrexian Dreadnought in
response so you have an 23/1 creature with trample but does it work
with the inkshrouder as well.

And why does this work, the Hellion says "Flowstone hellion gets +1 -1
until end of turn", so when the activations go off you don't have a
Flowstone Hellion anymore you have a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Does it
only matter when you activate the ability that it's a Flowstone
Hellion? Wouldn't the abilities do nothing because you don't have a
Flowstone Hellion when they go off? Is there a specific rule on this
and if so what is it?
I have a casual Deck with the Shapeshifter and I want to know exactly
how it works so if anyone argues with me I know what I am talkin
about....thanks

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 12 Mar 2005 10:18:13 -0800, snu0037@aol.com <snu0037@aol.com> wrote:
>Ok I have a couple questions, more so why these things happen....
>I have a Volrath's Shapeshifter out

Okay. Stop there for a moment, and I'll note that Volrath's Shapeshifter's
continuous effect is _not_ a copy effect; it does not follow the card's wording
almost at all, these days.

>and I have a Cephalid Inkshrouder in the graveyard.

On top of the graveyard, or not? The VS will have the CI's text plus the
discard ability only if the CI is on top of the graveyard.

>Now say i discard a Tradewind rider to the Volrath's
>Shapeshifter (which is an inkshrouder) to activate his ability of being
>unblockable and not be the target of spells or abilities. The Tradewind
>Rider hits the graveyard now do I have a Tradewind rider that can't be
>targeted or unblocked till the end of turn?

Well, let's do this in slow motion.

You announce you are using the VS/CI's activated ability. That ability goes
onto the stack, complete with its text. Then you pay the cost of the ability:
discarding the TR. The VS changes to have the TR's text _during the
announcement of_ the CI ability... but the CI ability is already on the stack,
and doesn't mutate into a triggered ability, or anything like that.
You finish announcing the ability, whose source now looks like a TR but
the ability still has the text of the CI ability; check for state-based
effects, put triggered abilities on the stack, you get priority.
Time passes, and so do both players. The ability resolves, and makes its
source (which now looks like a TR) unable to be the target of spells or
abilities this turn and makes it unblockable this turn.

So yes, once the ability resolves you have an unblockable untargettable VS/TR.

>I know it works with Flowstone Hellion with the Shapeshifter, where you
>activate his ability 11 times than discard a Phyrexian Dreadnought in
>response so you have an 23/1 creature with trample but does it work
>with the inkshrouder as well.

Yep. The key here is that the ability goes on the stack ... and thus separates
from what its source looks like ... as the -very first- thing you do in
announcing it. The cost payment is partway through the announcement, and the
VS changes what it looks like immediately on paying the cost, but the ability
from the CI is already on the stack (you're paying its cost, in fact) and
doesn't change just because its source redecorates itself.

>And why does this work, the Hellion says "Flowstone hellion gets +1 -1
>until end of turn", so when the activations go off you don't have a
>Flowstone Hellion anymore you have a Phyrexian Dreadnought.

202.2. Text that refers to the object it's on by name means just that
particular object and not any other duplicates of it, regardless of any name
changes caused by game effects.

In other words, since the Hellion ability and the Inkshrouder ability use
their creature's own name... and don't say anything like "cards named
Flowstone Hellion" ... they are referring to -that creature-, regardless of
whether its name changes for some reason.

>Does it only matter when you activate the ability that it's a Flowstone
>Hellion?

Pretty much. The ability knows where it came from - what its source is -
and doesn't care if that source's name, color, artist, etc., changes in
response, it's still its source.

>Wouldn't the abilities do nothing because you don't have a
>Flowstone Hellion when they go off? Is there a specific rule on this
>and if so what is it?

Nope. Yep, see above.

>I have a casual Deck with the Shapeshifter and I want to know exactly
>how it works so if anyone argues with me I know what I am talkin
>about....thanks

Well, the Shapeshifter deserves the "Expert" label on the box if any card
does. It's a complex little card, and I'll append its current text here in
case you're still looking at the card text only...

Volrath's Shapeshifter 1UU Creature - Shapeshifter
0/1 As long as ~ is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
card, ~ has the full text of that card, and has "2: Discard a card.". (~ has
that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and toughness.) /
2: Discard a card.

The first ability is continuous, and makes what the VS looks like change
_immediately_ if the top card of your library changes, even in the middle of
announcing or resolving something else. Fortunately the rules of Magic are
fairly specific on where and when an ability gets its text, and on how to
deal with the source of the ability changing what it looks like partway
through...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Maz]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> I have a Volrath's Shapeshifter out and I have a Cephalid Inkshrouder
> in the graveyard. Now say i discard a Tradewind rider to the Volrath's
> Shapeshifter (which is an inkshrouder) to activate his ability of being
> unblockable and not be the target of spells or abilities. The Tradewind
> Rider hits the graveyard now do I have a Tradewind rider that can't be
> targeted or unblocked till the end of turn?

Yes you do.
The effect doesn´t care for the cards name

> I know it works with Flowstone Hellion with the Shapeshifter, where you
> activate his ability 11 times than discard a Phyrexian Dreadnought in
> response so you have an 23/1 creature with trample but does it work
> with the inkshrouder as well.

You can´t discard more than one card to the inkshrouder-shapeshifter, as it
will loose the shapeshifter´s ability as soon as the card hits the
graveyard.
Which happens as part of the activation cost of the ability, before it is
fully played.

> And why does this work, the Hellion says "Flowstone hellion gets +1 -1
> until end of turn", so when the activations go off you don't have a
> Flowstone Hellion anymore you have a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Does it
> only matter when you activate the ability that it's a Flowstone
> Hellion? Wouldn't the abilities do nothing because you don't have a
> Flowstone Hellion when they go off? Is there a specific rule on this
> and if so what is it?
> I have a casual Deck with the Shapeshifter and I want to know exactly
> how it works so if anyone argues with me I know what I am talkin
> about....thanks

I´m quoting from Saturday School here

For rules purposes, you should always change a card refering to itself by
name with ~this~. The ability is not "U: Morphling gains flying." but "U:
~this~ gains flying.". The name is not relevant; it's refering to itself
under whatever name it currently has.

 

[Maz]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

when I said "shapeshifter´s ability" i meant the inkshrouder ability...