WC Question

[Katamarino]

Hi all,

I have a Thermaltake Armor LCS case which I am going to install my new rig into (*only* the CPU will be liquid cooled.)

It has a 240mm radiator, combined thermaltake pump/reservoir, and cpu waterblock.

My concern is that the two Toxic 4870s, being rather bigger than my current X1950 pro, will be too long to fit - the X1950 stops only one inch short of where the reservoir and pump are.

I am thinking of removing the reservoir and pump and replacing them with something like this:

http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info.php/cPath/33_57/products_id/2703

Price is less of an issue than convenience and quality.

Has anyone experience of this, or suggestions of other similar products?

 

[faster3200]

That isn't a very good pump. All of the pump/reservoirs that fit into a 5" drive bay aren't very good. You would be better off with an MCP355 (DDC 3.2) and an XSPC res top.

 

[Conumdrum]

Agreed.

 

[Katamarino]

When you say 'not very good', is it not even up to cooling a CPU-only loop (Q9650), with moderate overclock?

 

[stoner133]

The Koolance unit is an excellent unit and I wouldn't hesitate to use one. The pump is the same as is used in my EXOS2 and I have it cooling not only my cpu but also my memory and both my GPU's. Koolance makes nothing but the best watercooling equipment. It's not like other cheap cooling units. You will be able to overclock you cpu with no problems as long as you use a radiator thats up to the same quality standards as this pump.

 

[Conumdrum]

stoner133...... Do you ever frequent any real watercooling forums, or just here and the Koolance ones?

I beg to differ about 1000% from Koolance being an excellent unit. Most people once they get into watercooling end up replacing every piece of Kool gear.

 

[Ancient_1]

I would say that Koolance unit would be a big improvement over the TT that you are replacing. It looks to be a Laing DDC pump in the assembly and they are a good quality pump.

 

[phreejak]

That unit - the Koolance RP-1000BK - uses the PMP-400 pump. Statistically, the pumps performance characteristics are given at a maximum flow rate: 8.5 L/min - 2.25 gal/min (510lph - 135gph). As far as other, more well known and popular pumps that equates to about a Swiftech MCP350 - which is on the lower end of the spectrum as far as performance is concerned.

Compare that to the Swiftech MCP655: 20 L/min - 5.28 gal/min (1200lph - 317 gph). While the PMP-400 does have a better head clearance of 15 ft. (compared to the MCP655 at just over 10ft) that really wouldn't come into play for you based on your intentions.

While it would have no problem powering a cooling loop that was specifically created for JUST the CPU and the CPU ONLY - the exorbitant price for the entire drivebay enclosure just doesn't justify its rather weakish performance charateristics.

Realistically speaking, I certainly wouldn't add any second waterblock to the loop as it would task the pumps already feeble capabilities. If you had any inclination that your involvement into creating this cooling loop had a look to the future and a desire to, possibly, expand the cooling loop to include other waterblocks than I would most likely look to another direction. This setup, such that it is, would fast become both obsolete and inefficient if you tried to expand it to much more than a single waterblock rig.

 

[faster3200]

^^^ Also, note that the MCP355 plus the XSPC top is more powerful than the MCP655 and with less heat output.

 

[Katamarino]

Is there any reason I shouldn't go for one of the Thermaltake Aquabay reservoirs instead of the XSPC one? Purely reasons of Aesthetics...

 

[phreejak]

Do you have any particular one in mind? The Aquabay M3 or the Aquabay M1? The Aquabay M1 does offer more functionality (than anything that XSPC has) with the 2U Liquid Level & Flow Indicator that it can house.

The XSPC drivbebay reservoirs are just uncomplicated. However, with their multiple fitting placements you can attach more than one cooling loop to some of their reservoirs.

* I agree that the MCP355 is more powerful when comparing the head pressure of both as the MCP355 has almost double the clearance of the mCP655 (20ft versus 10.8). However, in areas where head pressure will not be a concern, the MCP655 has it's advantages.

The MCP655 is dead silent. You cannot even hear the thing running. The MCP355 is audible. According to Gabe at Swiftech "very audble".

"A Note of Caution! the MCP355 generates higher audible noise than the MCP350 and MCP655 pumps. This product is not recommended for users seeking silent operations. " (from the Swiftech site)

The MCP655 is a native 1/2ID and the MCP355 is a native 3/8ID. You would have to purchase a converted top to replace the one it comes with to adjust it for 1/2ID loops - which you did point out faster3200.

For anyone who is uncertain what "head" is - for purposes of definition, “Head” refers to the height of a vertical column of water. This is the maximum height that a pump can sustain any semblance of flow rate before it loses its capabilities. For purposes of an example we'll use a pump rated at 317gph with an imaginary "head" of 36 inches. At 0 inches of height you will have maximum flow rate and the pressure will be zero. Pressure is a measure of resistance to flow. Thus, at its initial discharge, at 0 height, the pump experiences its least resistance and generates its fullest flow. As the height in the cooling loop increases, the resistance to flow increases and the flow rate decreases. Earlier we said that our pump had a "head" of 36 inches. The closer the pump gets to its "36 inch" height, the less flow is generated.

So, at 0 height we have 0 pressure and 317gph. At 36 inches we have full pressure and no flow.

So now, if "head" does not become a factor than the MCP655s 317gph(1200lph) nominal discharge is more favorable than the MCP355s 120gph(454lph).

 

[Katamarino]

I was thinking of the M1, assuming that the little tank in there had enough capacity? It looks a little small.

My reservoir is 3/8th I/D fittings (I think, its the one that came with the Armor LCS case), so I am looking for the rest of the system to be the same. The little plastic fittings on those Swiftech pumps don't look as robust as the nice metal compression fittings on my current components...

 

[phreejak]

The M1 is two drivebays large so plan accordingly. As far as the size of the reservoir - it's fine. I have a rather large WC loop and I am using a reservoir much smaller than that - the Swiftech MCRES-MICRO.

The fittings on the pump are fine. If you purchase one - when you see it - you'll see. I've been using the MCP655 for almost 6 years now and my pump is fine. It's one of those things that once you start using it, you just forget you had any concerns because it just doesn't let you down - no cracks around the fittings, no issues with tube connection or clamp integrity and best of all, the pump is as good now as it was when I first got it.

 

[Katamarino]

Thankyou very much for all the help so far. One more question (for now ) - would you need to use a T-Line to fill a system using the M1? I can't see that it has any way of filling into the level indicator in the unit.

 

[phreejak]

You know, I did all manner of research on the M1. I, myself, have the flow indicator so there is no issue there. But, in all the pictures on the water tank that I could find, as far as I can determine, it only has two openings to it - for the fittings. A reservoir needs three of course - in, out and refill. This is an odd tank and I am not so sure I really mean that in a good way.

Another thing that I am not too thrilled about is the flow indicator. The product itself is fine. However, the position of the flow indicator is such that it requires two 90 degree elbows to connect to it - just another way to hinder the flowrate a little bit more.

I don't think that I could recommend that product in good conscience - in any form. If you still intend on getting it though, I will still help.

 

[Katamarino]

My current thinking is that it might be easiest to totally redo my cooling loop, starting from scratch with 1/2" I'D. I'd like to keep the case, and mount everything in it. I figure with the excellent advise from you, phreejak, that I'd be stupid not to get a nice setup while I have the chance!

A few questions:

1) Will most 240mm rads have the same mounting holes? IE could I put a decent radiator with 1/2" connectors in place of the current Thermaltake 240mm rad, and still use the same hard drive cage that it attaches to, and fans?

2) The waterblock I like is: The Swiftech GTZ Extreme

http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info.php/cPath/33_54/products_id/3300

I understand, from a number of reviews, that this is roughly on par with the latest Fuzion block, and I choose the Swiftech due to its apparently excellent mounting system. It will cool an OCed Q9650.

3) A decent 5.25" bay reservoir with 1/2" connectors? Maybe this: http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info.php/cPath/33_61/products_id/3159

Not as nice looking as the TT, but better connectors; would this make much difference?

4) I'd like a front panel like on the Koolance, that can give me flow rate (most interested in this) and maybe some temps. Any suggestions?

 

[phreejak]

Any major dual-pass radiator will have the fitting holes in the same orientation. The X-flow single pass rads have one at the top and one at the bottom - in a diagonal position (although, this is not always the case). You will just be dealing with the dual-pass rads. That being said, I cannot vouch for whether or not the HDD fixture that the Thermaltake rad is mounted on will work for a commercial rad. It looks to be proprietary - the side mounted fittings indicate so. In this you may have to do some modding if you can't find a place internally (or externally with a radbox assembly).

Excellent block - good choice.

That reservoir looks to be nice. G1/4 screwholes make it very universal. It does not come with the fittings themselves so you will need to purchase them seperately. For precautionary measures, pick up some "Teflon Tape". It is very thin white colored tape that you wrap around the threading of screws and fittings to seal them. It is a good measure against leakage.

It's tough for us 1/2ID fans as there isn't as much custom products such as what you are seeking as there are for 3/8ID or 1/4ID loops. It's a tradeoff. Try as I might, I could not find what you were looking for in 1/2ID (13mm). I did find it in 3/8ID but not any higher.

 

[Katamarino]

Thanks yet again for all the advice so far? Is there such a thing as a 1/2" to 3/8" converter? I've looked all through the site I've been linking, but haven't found anything. I suppose it would be pointless to have a single 3/8" fitting in an otherwise 1/2" loop anyway...?

In other, flow meter and temp related news:

Found this: http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info.php/cPath/33_64/products_id/2804

I know Koolance is a dirty word, but it seems to support 1/2"..

Also: http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info.php/cPath/33_64/products_id/1845

The issue then is finding a panel to attach them to, of course

Oh dear, somebody stop me; I'm looking at extra 120mm radiators and NB and GPU blocks now!

 

[phreejak]

It would hinder the flowrate......

It is never really a productive thing to downsize in a loop.

I use some Koolance products - fittings and such. I use some Thermaltake products too. They work for me and you just have to decide what works for you.

That flow indicator looks like a good idea. I see that it connects to the MB but I don't know what software you would use for it.

NB waterblocks - The Northbridge, typically, controls memory functions like – a memory controller (for Intel Chipsets), a level 2 cache communicator and bridges the gap between the CPU and Ram – it also handles functions between the CPU and the graphics processor on the PCI, AGP and PCIe slots. Since this particular part is always busy it can generate quite a lot of heat.

Now, the short of it - unless you are going to aggressively o'clock your CPU, GPU and memory (that includes altering voltages and such) than it wouldn't be worth it to watercool the NB really. In most cases, a decent HSF combo will suffice.

I want to say that the Alphacool temperature thermosensor is meant for 1/4ID or 3/8ID loops (even though it accepts G1/4 fittings)

 

[Katamarino]

It looks like it plugs into this:

http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=351

An interesting bit of kit, uses a USB header! I rather like it, even if it doesnt output to a front panel.

Is it worth cooling the mosfets (voltage regulators...)? I suspect not but you never know.

 

[phreejak]

It's all about o'clocking.....

Generally, if you have good airflow in your case (very important) then that will take care of itself. Most of the mosfet waterblocks are for the smaller ID cooling loops like 1/4ID or 3/8ID. There are a few that will work with 1/2ID depending on the brand and board.

If you are going to aggressively o'clock than it might be worth looking into. I have one rig where I do that. I have two seperate cooling loops powered by two different pumps. The mosfets on my Abit board are cooled by waterblocks that I made myself but are 3/8ID. With them I cool my NB. So, I have two loops running in one particular computer - one is 1/2ID that cools the major components (CPU - via 226watt thermoelectric module and a single GPU - both o'clocked) and another loop that is 3/8ID that cools the mosfets around my CPU and my NB.

 

[Katamarino]

Here is my latest crazy idea: as much for the enjoyment of just *having* this stuff WCed as for the performance. Overclocks will be moderate, and probably just on the CPU. Maybe very small OC on the GPUs.

What do you think of the set up so far? All 1/2" I/D.

I'm thinking about maybe XSPC GPU blocks instead of Koolance. Also about just sticking all the rads together after the GPU blocks; that way they'd be most efficient as the temp difference between the fluid and the ambient would be highest.

 

[phreejak]

Ok rule of the thumb:

Pump comes after the reservoir and the reservoir MUST be higher than the pump. The reason being is that pumps were designed to "push" water through a cooling loop and must be initialized (and fed) via gravity. Ideally, the portion with the best flow characteristics is after the pump. That is where you will find the path of least resistance. Here some people put the rad, I am not a believer in this philosophy because I feel that the waterblock of greatest importance should receive the best flow characteristics. That is why I always recommend that the CPU waterblock follow the pump. If you do intend on watercooling the NB than coming after the CPU is alright. In as much as I and the people here will help you, you should also begin to develop your own cooling philosophy as you learn about things.

After the NB I would put a rad then the GPU waterblocks in succession - after which another rad. The reservoir should follow the rad. SO, the loop would look like this:

Reservoir - pump - CPU Waterblock - NB waterblock - rad - GPU waterblock - GPU waterblock - rad - back to reservoir

In this configuration, the rad interrupt the heat cycle after each major section by helping to cool the liquid before it reaches the subsequent section of waterblocks.

Oh, I missed the mosfet waterblocks. Now if you only intend on doing moderate o'clocking - than you could take both the NB waterblock and the mosfet waterblocks and just cool them with proper airflow. However, if you do want to watercool them than if a second loop is out of the question - having the mosfets follow the NB is one way to do it. I will say that the inclusion of both the NB and the mosfets in the loop are going to play havoc on your flowrate.

 

[faster3200]

Well, I missed most of this conversation but I just wanted to say a few things.

First, the MCP355 with an XSPC top will have better head pressure and better flow rates. You don't just replace the top for the G1/4 threads.
Link 1
Link 2

Second, a lot of rads have different 120mm spacing.
BI has 15mm spacing
Fesser has 17mm spacing
PA has 24.5mm spacing
Swiftech has 17mm spacing (not sure on this one as they have changed it)
So, this is something to consider.

Third, the res doesn't have to be mounted above the pump but it is recommended since it make bleeding easier. My last comp had the res below the pump. All you have to do is tilt the case around while you are bleeding, it is kind of a hassle though. You can get the XSPC res top which has the best flow and makes bleeding and all of that really easy. It also doesn't take up much space.

Forth, I have an XSPC gpu block and I don't think I would buy it again. It works great cooling wise and isn't too harsh on the flow but the plexi has been known to crack. I think the newer versions come with delrin/acetal tops so those versions are ok. If you want a plexi gpu block go with an EK.

Fifth, I would avoid those Koolance temp sensors. Koolance has a nasty habit of using aluminum. Bitspower makes a temp sensor that most people recommend. It is basically just a plug but it has a thermal sensor at the end. I am using one right now and I think it works great. I have it plugged in to my Kaze Master fan controller.

Sixth, don't forget to talk about tubing, fittings, and coolant. These won't impact performance that much but are important things to consider.

Also, good job with the advice so far.

 

[Katamarino]

Ok - I think I'll forget about the NB and mosfets; the side fan I intend to get here should keep a good airflow onto them!

As for radiators; I will have at least one 240mm, and could fit one, maaaaybe 2 further 120s. What kind of acreage would be needed for the CPU and 2 4870s? From my reading so far I suspect that a 240 and a 120 will give me decent performance, would you concur? I'd like to get away with a minimum, as I'm trying to keep as tidy a case as possible.