Whatever happened to maps?

[nostromo]

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I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol days
of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*

--
No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again.
Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit?
I feel like the maid; "I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for... for ten minutes!"

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[Guest]

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Nostromo wrote:

> I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are
> getting closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they
> completely forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else
> remember the good ol days of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I
> vaguely recall it not having a map of any sort. Even Descent had a
> map & it was really 3d! *wistful sigh*

What are you talking about, all games have maps.

--
DalienX

 

[Andrew]

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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:28:22 +1100, Nostromo
<nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:

>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
>closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
>forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs!

"Photorealism" doesn't change the fact that all those quoted games are
pretty much linear and don't need maps.

> Anyone else remember the good ol days
>of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
>any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*

Quake was to blame when games went from 2.5D to 3D. You still get some
games with maps, but generally they are included in games where they
might be useful.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

 

[Guest]

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"Nostromo" <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in message
news:b3010116cji5hi3tr1l0t7c5ktfl2cibuo@4ax.com...
>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
> closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
> forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol
> days
> of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
> any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*

Quake I think was the first big FPS without one. As levels have become more
linear and a progression from set-piece to set-piece the need for a map has
gone.

I used to love being able to catch glimpses of secret areas on the map in
Doom and going mental trying to find how to get to them.

 

[Guest]

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One Punch Mickey wrote:
As levels have become more
> linear and a progression from set-piece to set-piece the need for a
map has
> gone.

True. Why would you need a map for HL2 (or HL1)? It's not like you have
a choice of directions.

As for Far Cry, why would your character have a map of the island?

I think a map is only useful on a game where you retrace your steps a
lot, or have a choice of directions. Thief springs to mind
(specifically Thief 2, coz that's the only one I've played). The levels
there were quite large and the map was a useful guide. Even then the
map didn't show everything and wasn't necessarily accurate.

 

[Guest]

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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:28:22 +1100, Nostromo
<nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:

>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
>closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
>forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol days
>of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
>any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*

Maps are needed only in old kind of corridor-shooter FPS games where
all the corridors look the same. Not needed in modern FPS games with
more variety and no maze-type levels.

 

[Guest]

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Walter Mitty wrote:
> Think of the map as the characters "memory". The map facility being
> there for oyu as a player to compensate for the "come & go" nature of

> gaming where its very easy to forget where the hell you got to after
a
> weeks absence from the game.
>
> One thing all games should have is a user journal where you can type
> notes which are saved with the games data.

Good point.
Although I still think a map is only useful if the game requires or
allows you to backtrack or take alternative routes. HL2 for example
didn't need a map.

I thought Deus Ex and Thief 2 implemented the map concept well, in that
the maps were just pictures (eg. a "satellite photo"). In both these
games, part of the gameplay was planning your route in advance, so they
helped. But because the maps were not based on the players experience,
there was plenty of stuff that wasn't on the map - which is where the
journal facility (which they both had) came in useful.
There was one level in Thief 2 where you did get a 100% accurate map,
but it was filled in as you explored - you started with a blank screen.

IGI had a good take on the map idea, with it's live satellite imaging.
You got real-time visibility of enemies at the cost of, well, it was
real time and they were probably shooting you while you were looking at
the map - the game didn't pause. Again, the map didn't show everything
because it couldn't see inside buildings. The final level was entirely
underground so you were mapless.

I think the recurring theme in the "map-games" I enjoyed (do I include
Civilization in that?) is that the map was not a complete guide. It
could work as an aide memoir (see Walter's point above) and it helped
you plan your route to a greater or lesser degree, but it could also
mislead you and lead you into danger/set piece action areas. In short,
an incomplete map makes for a better game experience.

 

[Guest]

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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, SpammersDie wrote:

> reasonably navigated and memorized without one. Especially since levels
> aren't planar like they were in the old Doom days - it's always a bit of a
> challenge to make a 2D automap of a 3D level that's both comprehensive and
> useable. The only ones I've seen that actually fit that description the ones

This is probable the main reason, why automaps died out at the movement
from 2.5D to real 3D FPS. The only ones that did it well IMHO were those
of Exhumed/Powerslave (by blending out levels above or below the actual)
and Jedi Knight (using a real 3D wire map, at least I think it did 😉.

--
Werner Spahl (spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships

 

[Guest]

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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:29:22 +0100, Werner Spahl <spahl@cup.uni-muenchen.de>
wrote:

>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, SpammersDie wrote:
>
>> reasonably navigated and memorized without one. Especially since levels
>> aren't planar like they were in the old Doom days - it's always a bit of a
>> challenge to make a 2D automap of a 3D level that's both comprehensive and
>> useable. The only ones I've seen that actually fit that description the ones
>
>This is probable the main reason, why automaps died out at the movement
>from 2.5D to real 3D FPS. The only ones that did it well IMHO were those
>of Exhumed/Powerslave (by blending out levels above or below the actual)
>and Jedi Knight (using a real 3D wire map, at least I think it did 😉.

IIRC, Jedi Knight used a map in the same style as Doom - lines outline the
edges of the walls. Of course, Jedi Knight isn't really known for
"multi-story" areas - most of the action doesn't have any floors on-top of
other floors, even though the engine could handle it without problem.

 

[Guest]

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One Punch Mickey wrote:
> I used to love being able to catch glimpses of secret areas on the map in
> Doom and going mental trying to find how to get to them.
>

Yes I loved that as well, knowing that there is *something* in a certain
room but not knowing exactly how to get it.

I know this is a PC newsgroup, but I have to recommend the Metroid Prime
games. Their map and the secrets scattered all over game are an absolute
joy to discover. Sometimes I wish there were more "pure gameplay" titles
for the PC, or at least more stuff to discover off the "right" track.
Half Life 2 was fun, but there were precious little to discover in the
game. They could have at least let the player find background
information about the whole combine conflict in old newspapers or
computers and such. No necessary stuff for progress through the game,
just a little extra for those who like to search houses and discover things.

/Kars

 

[Guest]

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DalienX wrote:
> Nostromo wrote:
>
>
>>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are
>>getting closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they
>>completely forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else
>>remember the good ol days of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I
>>vaguely recall it not having a map of any sort. Even Descent had a
>>map & it was really 3d! *wistful sigh*
>
>
> What are you talking about, all games have maps.
>

Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?

 

[Guest]

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Chadwick wrote:
>
> As for Far Cry, why would your character have a map of the island?
>


Think of the map as the characters "memory". The map facility being
there for oyu as a player to compensate for the "come & go" nature of
gaming where its very easy to forget where the hell you got to after a
weeks absence from the game.

One thing all games should have is a user journal where you can type
notes which are saved with the games data.

 

[Guest]

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Chadwick wrote:
> Walter Mitty wrote:
>
>>Think of the map as the characters "memory". The map facility being
>>there for oyu as a player to compensate for the "come & go" nature of
>
> Good point.
> Although I still think a map is only useful if the game requires or
> allows you to backtrack or take alternative routes. HL2 for example
> didn't need a map.
>

True due to the linearity of the game : *but* as OPM pointed out, maps
are good regardless of linearity to hilite secret areas etc - I tend to
miss a lot fo secret areas as I'm a "push to the end" type of player.

 

[Guest]

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"One Punch Mickey" <fantantiddlyspan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HS0Md.46781$Z14.30590@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "Nostromo" <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in message
> news:b3010116cji5hi3tr1l0t7c5ktfl2cibuo@4ax.com...
>>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are
>>getting
>> closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
>> forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol
>> days
>> of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map
>> of
>> any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*
>
> Quake I think was the first big FPS without one. As levels have become
> more linear and a progression from set-piece to set-piece the need for a
> map has gone.
>
> I used to love being able to catch glimpses of secret areas on the map in
> Doom and going mental trying to find how to get to them.

You can do the "give the player a tantalizing glimpse" schtick in the
first-person view just as well.

I don't miss the automap. It takes away from the immersion of the game if
you're playing with your eye on the 2D automap half the time looking for
secret areas you might have missed. True, the existence of an automap
doesn't necessary mean that that's the only good way to find secrets in that
particular game but you can't know that ahead of time. I'm also a big fan of
the minimum HUD concept and there's no way an automap is going to not take
up a huge chunk of HUD real estate. I just think it makes far more sense to
not have the automap and make it a design goal to create levels with
sufficiently differentiated areas that fit a real-world logic so they can be
reasonably navigated and memorized without one. Especially since levels
aren't planar like they were in the old Doom days - it's always a bit of a
challenge to make a 2D automap of a 3D level that's both comprehensive and
useable. The only ones I've seen that actually fit that description the ones
that are manually generated like the ones in Thief (or partly manually
generated like the ones in SS2.) Doom could just let the computer generate
the automap automatically.

 

[Guest]

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Walter Mitty wrote:

> Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?

Doom 1, 2, and Final Doom.

 

[jlc]

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"Kars" <nobody@nothing.com> wrote in message
news:4200b988$1@griseus.its.uu.se...
> One Punch Mickey wrote:
>> I used to love being able to catch glimpses of secret areas on the map in
>> Doom and going mental trying to find how to get to them.
>
> Yes I loved that as well, knowing that there is *something* in a certain
> room but not knowing exactly how to get it.
>
> I know this is a PC newsgroup, but I have to recommend the Metroid Prime
> games. Their map and the secrets scattered all over game are an absolute
> joy to discover. Sometimes I wish there were more "pure gameplay" titles
> for the PC, or at least more stuff to discover off the "right" track. Half
> Life 2 was fun, but there were precious little to discover in the game.
> They could have at least let the player find background information about
> the whole combine conflict in old newspapers or computers and such. No
> necessary stuff for progress through the game, just a little extra for
> those who like to search houses and discover things.
>
> /Kars

Try Riddick. It has you looking for side mission items as well as "smokes"
that un lock artwork and movies. It was a lot of fun hunting for all this
stuff. JLC

 

[Pluvious]

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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:04:53 +0100, Walter Mitty
<mitticus@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>DalienX wrote:
>> Nostromo wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are
>>>getting closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they
>>>completely forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else
>>>remember the good ol days of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I
>>>vaguely recall it not having a map of any sort. Even Descent had a
>>>map & it was really 3d! *wistful sigh*
>>
>>
>> What are you talking about, all games have maps.
>>
>
>Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?

Riddick



Pluvious

 

[Guest]

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Pluvious wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:04:53 +0100, Walter Mitty
> <mitticus@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?
>
> Riddick
>

Yeah, kind of....

Maybe it was just me and my lack of trying , but I found the map in
Riddick to be useless.

Great game though, I just completed it 2 days ago. Thinking about
going through again with the directors dialog on and a printout of where
the smokes I didn't find are.

Kevin

 

[Guest]

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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:33:00 -0700, "Hank the Rapper"
<xflopgoon@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote:

>Walter Mitty wrote:
>
>> Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?
>
>Doom 1, 2, and Final Doom.
>

No, that FPS had the map utilities seperate from the official distribution.
Most of these tools available were generally a bit difficult to use, or
were shareware restricted in one way or another. In addition, some of them
were a bit more limited then the Doom enging and failed to load some large
levels.

Serious Sam, on the other hand, fully qualifies - it has a map editor
released along with the game, along with a quick tutorial to produce a
simple map and various examples to show some common tricks.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

JLC wrote:
> "Kars" <nobody@nothing.com> wrote in message
> news:4200b988$1@griseus.its.uu.se...
>
>>One Punch Mickey wrote:
>>
>>>I used to love being able to catch glimpses of secret areas on the map in
>>>Doom and going mental trying to find how to get to them.
>>
>>Yes I loved that as well, knowing that there is *something* in a certain
>>room but not knowing exactly how to get it.
>>
>>I know this is a PC newsgroup, but I have to recommend the Metroid Prime
>>games. Their map and the secrets scattered all over game are an absolute
>>joy to discover. Sometimes I wish there were more "pure gameplay" titles
>>for the PC, or at least more stuff to discover off the "right" track. Half
>>Life 2 was fun, but there were precious little to discover in the game.
>>They could have at least let the player find background information about
>>the whole combine conflict in old newspapers or computers and such. No
>>necessary stuff for progress through the game, just a little extra for
>>those who like to search houses and discover things.
>>
>>/Kars
>
>
> Try Riddick. It has you looking for side mission items as well as "smokes"
> that un lock artwork and movies. It was a lot of fun hunting for all this
> stuff. JLC
>
>

Unfortunately my computer is a bit slow for Riddick, but I'm since I'm
in the middle of Metroid Prime2, I'm not complaining (best game of
2004 for me)

/Kars

 

[Steph]

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"Hank the Rapper" <xflopgoon@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in
news:tpCdnckzZ754e53fRVn-og@giganews.com:

> Walter Mitty wrote:
>
>> Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?
>
> Doom 1, 2, and Final Doom.

Duke Nukem 3D

Shadow Warrior (aka Duke Ninja 3D)


stePH
--
If it cannot break the egg's shell, a chick will die without being born.
We are the chick. The world is our egg.
If we cannot break the world's shell, we will die without being born.
Smash the world's shell! For the revolution of the world!

 

[Guest]

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Nostromo wrote:
> I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
> closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
> forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol days
> of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
> any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*
>

I think you've hit at the core of the problem: as the games become more
architecturely advanced in a 3D space they become more complex to
auto-map. If you've ever browsed the strategy guides for Quake or Quake
2 at the local game shop those levels aren't too difficult to represent
in a 2D space. Morrowind got around the problem too by depicting areas
with prerendered maps that were undercovered from a black fog of war as
the player explored the area. That's one solution. Another could be
like how Descent or Daggerfall simply displayed the level but with more
advanced games like Doom 3, displaying the entire level in all its
detail probably won't work well with current systems. Others have
already pointed out how there really isn't much need for maps in the
current crop of linear FPS games. I used to miss the auto-map too until
I realized that it was just fluff!


--
best regards, mat
np: [winamp not running]

www.pdxshows.net

 

[Guest]

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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:15:18 -0000, "One Punch Mickey"
<fantantiddlyspan@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Quake I think was the first big FPS without one. As levels have become more
>linear and a progression from set-piece to set-piece the need for a map has
>gone.

It's not only linearity, but the level design has also gotten more
sophisticated (for example, clever placement of landmarks can greatly
aid the player in orientation).

 

[Pluvious]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:38:17 -0600, Kevin Kramer <kak1@sgi.com> wrote:

>Pluvious wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:04:53 +0100, Walter Mitty
>> <mitticus@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Could you name one single FPS that comes with a map utility/feature?
>>
>> Riddick
>>
>
>Yeah, kind of....
>
>Maybe it was just me and my lack of trying , but I found the map in
>Riddick to be useless.
>

You could see lines coming from zones that let you know you missed a
'area'.

>Great game though, I just completed it 2 days ago. Thinking about
>going through again with the directors dialog on and a printout of where
>the smokes I didn't find are.
>
>Kevin

From listening half way through the commentary, they've mentioned that
there is a special bonus for finding all the cigs. Sounds like
something good.. After I finished with the 2nd play with commentary I
was going to use the 'give all' cheat and see what finding all the
cigs would unlock, but if you know of some "printout" I'm all for
going that route.

Pluvious

 

[Pluvious]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:04:54 -0800, Vader des Vaderlands
<vader@vaderlands.nl> wrote:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> I mean, we have FarCry, Doom3, HL2 & a myriad of fps games that are getting
>> closer to photorealistic, but somewhere along the line they completely
>> forgot to add the f#$king maps in ffs! Anyone else remember the good ol days
>> of Doom & DN3D? Is Quake to blame? I vaguely recall it not having a map of
>> any sort. Even Descent had a map & it was *really* 3d! *wistful sigh*
>>
>
>I think you've hit at the core of the problem: as the games become more
>architecturely advanced in a 3D space they become more complex to
>auto-map. If you've ever browsed the strategy guides for Quake or Quake
>2 at the local game shop those levels aren't too difficult to represent
>in a 2D space. Morrowind got around the problem too by depicting areas
>with prerendered maps that were undercovered from a black fog of war as
>the player explored the area. That's one solution. Another could be
>like how Descent or Daggerfall simply displayed the level but with more
>advanced games like Doom 3, displaying the entire level in all its
>detail probably won't work well with current systems. Others have
>already pointed out how there really isn't much need for maps in the
>current crop of linear FPS games. I used to miss the auto-map too until
>I realized that it was just fluff!


Hurmph.. back in my day we had to use graph paper and make our own
maps! Wizardry and Bard's Tale come to mind. Ahh.. those were the
days. >sniff<

Pluvious