Question Which motherboard do I want to buy?

Ancipital

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I am building a new PC. The last one I built was 12 years ago :)

CPU
So, I opted for a Ryzen 7 7700X but with a plan to upgrade in 2 years to 9700X, as it will get cheaper.
So, the mainboard must be for 9700X.

Peripherals
I want:
  • 2 SATA HDD drives
  • one SSD (nvme?) External SATA would be nice but not mandatory.
  • Optical output for audio.
I will try to reuse the case and the PSU from my old computer. Same for the video card (asus nvidia gtx 760).
I don't care which WiFi it has. I live in Germany. Here the average Internet speed is way under 100MBps.

Purpose
I am NOT interested in gaming that much. I am not interested in its look. The computer will stay under my desk.
I am interested in single core intensive computing (my compiler is single core).

Options
Should I go for something like this?
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/ROG-B550-F-Motherboard-Ethernet-Coolers/dp/B0BHHVC3BS
I see it has 8000 reviews.

Update: it seems that board is only for Ryzen 3. Damn it!

Budget
200-300 euros.
 
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Aeacus

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So, the mainboard must be for 9700X.
Simple, any AM5 socket MoBo will do.
At current moment, you have a choice between AMD 600-series and 800-series chipsets.

Differences here:
LQ7u7zVitGfn58V5.jpg

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://www.techpowerup.com/img/LQ7u7zVitGfn58V5.jpg

Honestly I would even reuse my old RAM if possible (32GB).
Unless you have DDR5, doesn't happen. AM5 socket MoBos only use DDR5, while what you may have, is most likely DDR3.

Budget
200-300 euros.
If you want best compatibility to Ryzen 9000-series CPU, then better to get 800-series chipset.
Options within your budget are: https://de.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#s=41&X=0,30000&sort=price&c=166,167&E=1,7&K=2,13
 
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Ancipital

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Ancipital

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Ancipital

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I have made a color-coded map to help me see which is the best mobo.
The green areas show the card with more features.
colorcoded2.JPG


Items are sorted by price.
High resolution image here.
 
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Aeacus

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That's a nice chart. (y)

MSI Tomahawk, on average, seems the best. Also, it is within your budget of up to €300.

Since MoBos have so many features, it is difficult to suggest one, because i don't know which features you value the most. All MoBos have at least 2x SATA ports and at least 1x M.2 slot. Though, some doesn't have S-PDIF port.


But when to classify the features you listed out;

Price - Goes from reasonable price to costing a fortune. So, a wide bracket.

Boot time - Given it is from 17s to 23s, the 5s difference shouldn't matter between different MoBos.

DDR max frequency - This is the max RAM transfer speed MoBo supports. But the higher the transfer speed you go at, the less likely chance it actually holds. DDR5 JEDEC standard is from 4400-6400 MT/s. Anything over 6400 MT/s needs CUDIMM RAM. While current good middle ground is 6000 MT/s.
E.g in DDR4, JEDEC is 2133-3200 MT/s, while OC speeds go as high as 4800 MT/s. Sweet spot for DDR4 is 3000 MT/s.
If you want a high transfer rate RAM, do check MoBo memory QVL list beforehand. That list contains RAM modules that MoBo manufacturer has tested and confirmed to work at given speeds. If the RAM you buy isn't listed in memory QVL, it can still work, but it may not be able to hold faster speeds than JEDEC standard.

Operating frequency - 2% variance between MoBos, making this feature negligible within MoBo selection.

Cinebench - This score actually depends far more on the given CPU and cooling of the CPU, rather than on MoBo itself. But this shows on how much the MoBo itself limits the CPU's performance. From best to worst, there's 4.5% difference, which is minor.

Chipset - X870 is standard, while X870E is upgrade over X870. The "E" stands for Extreme.

vcore VRM - This is complex to describe in few words. Instead, further reading: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...ly-matter-50a-60a-105a.3851851/#post-23318625

VRM temp - How hot the MoBo VRMs get during sustained load. But PC case fans, which every PC should have, play a direct role on cooling the PC internals, including MoBo and it's VRMs. And while the temp bracket is wide, from 52C to 76C, the VRMs can sustain ~100C, making even the 76C VRMs nothing to worry about.

PCI-E x16 slots - How many full sized PCI-E slots MoBo has. Now, GPU does need x16 slot but is essentially only hardware that needs x16 slot. Other add-on cards use either x1 or x4 slots. Though, do note that while MoBo may have 3-4 PCI-E x16 slots physically, not all of them have 16x PCI-E lanes in them. Instead, it is usually where one has 16x lanes (where GPU goes in), while other slots have 4x or 1x PCI-E lane. PCI-E slot, physically, can still be x16 but it can have 8x, 4x or 1x PCI-E lane in it instead. So, to know for sure, look it from MoBo specs, on how the PCI-E lanes are divided within PCI-E slots.

M.2 PCI-E 5.0 (aka Gen5) - Current fastest M.2 slot there is. Also, there are some Gen5 M.2 drives, but they run hot and cost a lot. Instead, PCI-E 4.0 (Gen4) drives have better value, e.g Samsung 990 Pro. Even PCI-E 3.0 (Gen3) drives have good value, e.g Samsung 970 Evo Plus (which is my OS drive). PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slot is backwards compatible with older generation drives.

SATA 3 ports - How many SATA ports MoBo has. Looks like the 4x SATA ports is the norm today. Then again, many now move onwards with M.2 drives, making SATA drives obsolete. 8 years ago, norm was 6x SATA ports on MoBos. But back then, M.2 just came out and many still used SATA drives mainly.

USB4 ports - That's the current fastest USB port there is. 40 Gbps transfer speeds. Type-C connector.

USB 3.2 ports - Depending on which version it is, it can be 5 Gbps, 10 Gbps or 20 Gbps port. E.g 5 Gbps port is the old and true USB 3.0. Also, port can be type-C (oval) or type-A (rectangular).

M.2 Gen4/3 - How many older gen M.2 slots MoBo has. In a nutshell, Gen 4 is double the speed of Gen 3. And Gen 5 is double the speed of Gen 4. In real world application, you can not tell a difference between Gen3 and Gen5, since Gen3 is already very fast. Only in synthetic benchmarks (or when moving large files), you can tell a difference.

Sound - The quality of on-board audio. I'm not an audiophile and can't comment on the on-board audio quality. E.g i'm using USB headset for my sounds and the rear I/O ports are used with my 2.1 speakers, which have their own dedicated AMP and control unit (including bass, treble etc). So, whatever sound MoBo produces, i can adjust it when need be. So, i don't need good on-board audio to begin with.
With true audiophiles, they even don't use the inferior on-board audio. Instead, they are using dedicated PCI-E based sound card, for best audio.

LAN - What speed LAN port MoBo has. That depends on your internet speed. E.g when you only have 2.4 Ghz internet connection, the 5 Ghz port won't increase your download/upload speeds and would be waste of money.

USB 2.0 ports - How many 2.5 Gbps ports MoBo has. Even today, most USB peripherals use USB 2.0 connectors, so, having them plenty won't hurt. But you can use USB 2.0 device in USB 3.0 port and it works fine. Or when you do run out of USB ports (any kind), you can always add more via PCI-E x4 based add-on card.

Fan headers - How many fan headers MoBo has. Most people connect their case fans to the MoBo, whereby fans are then software (BIOS) controlled, based on the fan curve they defined. This is the easiest approach regarding PC cooling. And depending on how big of a PC case you have (how many fans), it is better to have more fan headers then less. But if you do run out of fan headers, you can easily connect 2x fans onto 1x header. Downside is that the two fans will run in sync then.
Since i, personally, don't like software control over my case fans, i've bought and installed dedicated fan controller instead. Where each fan has their own channel and i can manually control each and every case fan i have. I find this control method much better, compared to letting PC decide for myself how fast the fans should run.

Wi-fi - All MoBos have the latest wi-fi 7. So, no selection in that category.
 

Ancipital

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That's a nice chart. (y)
Thanks.
Now I see that the image cannot be zoomed. I apologize. I posted a link to a high resolution image AND to the original spreadsheet document.
_______

I am not picky. Personally, I am interested mostly in the frequency of the CPU (single core). It is needed by my compiler.

_______

About the sound quality: with today's technology it is easy to achieve professional quality levels, cheaply, EVEN in mainboards. I mean, the audio works at only KHz level, not GHz. And it is all digitalized.
When about audio, MSI lacks behind at absolutely ALL chapters. However, I think their quality is still enough.

> So, i don't need good on-board audio to begin with.
If you send an analog signal to your amplifier, then, whatever crap your mobo sends to the amplifier, it is amplified (get even crappier) by your analog amplifier.
Even worst, if the input of your onboard sound chip is crappy (noisy, cross over, THD), the fact that you send a digital signal to your digital amplifier becomes irrelevant. The noise creep in into the digital signal. It propagates through the final amplifier.
 

Ancipital

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Hi
I changed my mind.
As they are now (double compared to x670) x870 is not worth it.
I can wait 1 month to see if the prices will drop. Or I could try to buy the parts from an EU country (Romania?) where the prices are smaller.
I could use the $ difference to replace my old GPU (asus nvidia gtx 760).
 

Aeacus

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Now I see that the image cannot be zoomed. I apologize. I posted a link to a high resolution image AND to the original spreadsheet document.
I managed. I downloaded the small image and made zoom of it to barely readable size. :)

As they are now (double compared to x670) x870 is not worth it.
Here's roundup of X670E MoBos,
link: https://www.techspot.com/bestof/amd-x670-motherboards/

Latest hardware is always more expensive than older hardware. And with MoBos, that also includes the features they have. Just look the chipset comparison i posted above.
 

Eximo

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Chipset - X870 is standard, while X870E is upgrade over X870. The "E" stands for Extreme.

With true audiophiles, they even don't use the inferior on-board audio. Instead, they are using dedicated PCI-E based sound card, for best audio.
It is to be noted that E also means that those boards have dual chipsets. Two X870 chipsets or two 650 chipsets. Basically they are daisy chained to create a lot more I/O but are still limited by the bandwidth between the CPU and the first chipset. When you set one of these up you have to be aware of which chipset is connected directly to the CPU and which onboard features are connected to each chipset. Not a huge deal, but for best latency you want to populate the first chipset if at all possible.

True audiophiles use external DACs. I would call a dedicated sound card mostly obsolete, unless you are upgrading poor quality onboard audio. But consuming a PCIe slot to do so is often space prohibitive with today's large GPUs.

Audio chipsets can be looked up and their features compared. My usual rule of thumb is to look for the isolation between the mainboard and the audio chipset. If it is significant with some dedicated electrolytic capacitors it is likely fine. (A big problem with onboard sound in the past was interference from other motherboard components)
 
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Aeacus

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It is to be noted that E also means that those boards have dual chipsets. Two X870 chipsets or two 650 chipsets. Basically they are daisy chained to create a lot more I/O but are still limited by the bandwidth between the CPU and the first chipset. When you set one of these up you have to be aware of which chipset is connected directly to the CPU and which onboard features are connected to each chipset. Not a huge deal, but for best latency you want to populate the first chipset if at all possible.
That's nice to know. :)

True audiophiles use external DACs. I would call a dedicated sound card mostly obsolete, unless you are upgrading poor quality onboard audio. But consuming a PCIe slot to do so is often space prohibitive with today's large GPUs.
I'm happy with 128 kbps MP3, so, can't comment much in the realm of audiophiles. :cheese:

Anyone who has ATX MoBo, has space for at least one PCI-E add-on card. And unless one plugs something else in the free slot (USB card, M.2 card), the space remains empty, even when using 4 slot GPU.

Audio chipsets can be looked up and their features compared. My usual rule of thumb is to look for the isolation between the mainboard and the audio chipset. If it is significant with some dedicated electrolytic capacitors it is likely fine. (A big problem with onboard sound in the past was interference from other motherboard components)
My MoBo: MSI Z170A Gaming M5 has isolated PCB for audio, among other things:

Caracteristicas-MSI-Z170A-GAMING-M5-3.jpg

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://www.hd-tecnologia.com/imagenes/articulos/2015/11/Caracteristicas-MSI-Z170A-GAMING-M5-3.jpg

So... i guess mine is better than the average? :unsure::)
Then again, i have nothing to compare against.
 

Eximo

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Even some ATX boards don't come with very many slots. And 1x slots often compete for bandwidth with other hardware in the system. Should always be able to find room for a sound card though.

That isolation is key. Even some premium boards in the early 2010s had issues and I did end up using a sound card for a while. I could hear my GPUs VRMs through my headphones with my Z87 board. And on my X58 board I had cross talk between mic in and out, which caused a weird echo problem.

If I remember correctly ALC1150 from Realtek was their mid-range offering which that board has, but coupled with the isolation and a decent onboard amplifier they are still quite good. It was replaced with the ALC1200 a little later and I have had a few of those. I have no complaints.

I think the rule of thumb is to avoid the Realtek chipsets with only three digits. These are typically the lower end models and have inferior amplifiers.

Apparently the new ALC 4080 is to be avoided because, weirdly, it uses USB. And people report cracking through the audio. So the go to today is the ALC1220.

However it is to be noted that the configuration used for the chipset matters a lot more than the chip itself. So sticking with motherboards that advertise audio like Audio Boost, or Supreme FX and the like are actually worth it.
 
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Ancipital

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And on my X58 board I had cross talk between mic in and out, which caused a weird echo problem.
I never owned such a cheap board BUT I heard that in other computer.
The round up (https://www.techspot.com/review/2907-amd-x870-motherboards/) shows impressive values for all boards.
Again, today is so easy to achieve pro-level audio quality, for only few dollars (literary).

For example, the cross-talk for:
  • Consumer audio: -60 dB or lower is acceptable.
  • Professional audio (studio grade): -80 dB or better is typical.
The roundup article above show values over 80db. The THS is also ridiculous small. Compared with your "classic" analog amplifier (1 to 10%), you can simply say they are net zero!

Again, today is ridiculously easy to obtain high quality for audio. You can buy 5 class D amplifier chips (like PAM8xxx) from ebay for 2.5 euros (this includes shipping over the ocean). Preamplifiers are only a few cents. If you buy at bulk, the price goes under 1c.

Any board that has low quality sound, shows how little they care about quality or how willing they are to sacrifice quality in order to save under $1.
 
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Eximo

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X58 board I had at the time was very expensive. over $300 in 2010, which would be more like $450 today. Just wasn't a good audio implementation. Onboard audio was just taking over from popular discrete sound cards. Onboard sound up to that point had pretty much only been on cheap OEM boards, and the features were lacking. People were still using Sound Blaster Audigy and Live cards. I ended up getting an ASUS sound card and running third party drivers.

On the Z87 board it was either very noisy GPUs or they didn't anticipate SLI very well. On some games if I ran above 60 FPS you could hear the GPUs screaming over the audio input. Never really solved that one, just had to turn on V-sync for certain titles. It really did scale with FPS output.
 

Ancipital

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On some games if I ran above 60 FPS you could hear the GPUs screaming over the audio input.
The connection (wires) between the input jack and the sound IC was supposed to use shielded/coaxial cable. I have never seen that (ever) in a PC, though even the cheapest tape players in the 70s were using that.
How is that possible?
I guess maybe because the audio devices were manually soldered, so they could handle the coaxial cable manually, while the main boards are assembled FULLY automatic?
Such a joke.... :(
 
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Eximo

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Not sure I have seen true coaxial cable inside a PC outside of modern WiFi antennae wires. I would say the vast majority of front panel audio cables are not all that well shielded. I suspect it was more something in the PCB layers or a poor RF mitigation design in the GPUs themselves. Could easily have been the SLI bridge for all I know.
 

Ancipital

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> Not sure I have seen true coaxial cable inside a PC
I was talking about general electronics. Shielded cables are everywhere, except PCs.

> I would say the vast majority of front panel audio cables are not all that well shielded.
YES. That's the problem.
They should convert the analog signal to digital right there into the front panel!!!!!!!!
Once you have the input audio signal as digital, you cannot introduce anymore noise in it!