Someone Somewhere
Titan
- Sep 23, 2012
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- Mar 16, 2013
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I've been watching this thread from about 2 minutes after it was posted.
The general consensus as to 'why'...seems to be "because I want to, I can, and why should I pay money for a game that sucks".
Question - if it sucks, why are you spending time playing it?
Someone Somewhere
Titan
- Sep 23, 2012
- 22,291
- 8
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I can see myself pirating for 1 reason: when the company doesn't actually want my money, IE they region lock the country you are in so you can't even buy the game.
Square Enix is notorious in that department, so are the company behind Total War series and AFAIK Sega also does that kind of locking as well.
Which means that either the company doesn't want my money (most probable in the case of SE, since they sell some FF games, I have FF7 and FF13, but I cannot buy FF4 DS or FF8 for example), or the government doesn't want the game sold, which is unlikely in mine as I have never heard of any game that got banned here.
The problem I find with pirated games is that they have a very annoying tendency to disappear off the net once time has passed, making them hard to acquire. At least on distribution platforms (Steam, GoG etc) as long as the company is in business, the game should be available anytime I want them, hence they get my money. No legal issues and always available on demand.
Oh, and searching for pirated games both take effort and is bloody risky, hence I don't do it on practical grounds, or moral grounds, unless I have to.
Forcing the game to work using third party programs is another story
Square Enix is notorious in that department, so are the company behind Total War series and AFAIK Sega also does that kind of locking as well.
Which means that either the company doesn't want my money (most probable in the case of SE, since they sell some FF games, I have FF7 and FF13, but I cannot buy FF4 DS or FF8 for example), or the government doesn't want the game sold, which is unlikely in mine as I have never heard of any game that got banned here.
The problem I find with pirated games is that they have a very annoying tendency to disappear off the net once time has passed, making them hard to acquire. At least on distribution platforms (Steam, GoG etc) as long as the company is in business, the game should be available anytime I want them, hence they get my money. No legal issues and always available on demand.
Oh, and searching for pirated games both take effort and is bloody risky, hence I don't do it on practical grounds, or moral grounds, unless I have to.
Forcing the game to work using third party programs is another story
Agente Silva
Honorable
- Jun 17, 2013
- 92
- 0
- 10,660
"why would you not spend like 80 bucks on a legitimate game which would not only work perfectly but also allow you to play online?"
1. A high end PC rarely falls short on its promises.
2. You mean like Simcity? Or Evolve a DLC ripoff fest? Or NHL2015 with it´s monthly fees? Or Assassin´s Creed and it´s bug fest? Or CoD rinse and repeat?
1. A high end PC rarely falls short on its promises.
2. You mean like Simcity? Or Evolve a DLC ripoff fest? Or NHL2015 with it´s monthly fees? Or Assassin´s Creed and it´s bug fest? Or CoD rinse and repeat?
There are many reasons why people might pirate games.
I personally Have a problem with compatibility.
When a new windows comes out, ods are you will be left in the dark unless someone creates a fix. In case you didnt know, those are not considered pirating, and in terms of programming they are almost the same. Te only reason why companies dont pursue this, is because this happens in old games that are not getting sales anyway.
The key thing in terms of pirating is something that I think has never been addressed:
Pirating vs companies.
If we consider pirating alone, like a stand alone behavior, id agree its very bad not only from a legal point of view but also from a moral one: You are not paying for something everybody else pays.
The problem is, if we would apply the same rules to morally judging pirates to companies, they would both be found guilty.
Since the damage done by pirating is mostly to the companies, it is almost as if pirates are fighting companies. (now you might not agree with this part, but ive read a lot on this subject that strongly suggests that pirating actually increases sales if the product is good, but decreases if it is bad).
In the past, when pirating in Spain was considered ... normal, id play games like that and buy those I liked. I didnt buy those I didnt like, but then again, I didnt even finish them. Nowdays, I can afford games, but I dont play as much, so I can wait for 2 years for a game to drop its price to something im willing to pay.
So, today I watch youtube reviews and videos, and then decide If I want to buy a game. And let me tell you, I buy a lot less now than when I used to pirate games to try them out.
The real problem is that it seems to me as if companies "want" you to pirate. They introduce so many problems for anyone who buys the original games, that it becomes a nightmare to try to play them.
One of the things that was a easy way to keep my conscience clear in terms of pirating when I used to do it, was that everytime Id send a support question to a company trying to fix a problem, they would answer with nothing usefull at all. Hell, I even got more than once answers like: "We dont support this game anymore, sorry" or "The servers were closed due to the decline of the game's popularity".
You know what kind on answer youd get in a community of pirates? "Check page 1467" (they actually remember the page to help yo), or "here is a link to a youtube video so you see how to get it working" or even "I modified the patch, should work now".
Sure, some of those places were dangerous and full of viruses, but most of them were easy to spot and clean.
It is hard to blame those that try to help you, and support those who dont care about you at all, so long as you paid them.
I personally Have a problem with compatibility.
When a new windows comes out, ods are you will be left in the dark unless someone creates a fix. In case you didnt know, those are not considered pirating, and in terms of programming they are almost the same. Te only reason why companies dont pursue this, is because this happens in old games that are not getting sales anyway.
The key thing in terms of pirating is something that I think has never been addressed:
Pirating vs companies.
If we consider pirating alone, like a stand alone behavior, id agree its very bad not only from a legal point of view but also from a moral one: You are not paying for something everybody else pays.
The problem is, if we would apply the same rules to morally judging pirates to companies, they would both be found guilty.
Since the damage done by pirating is mostly to the companies, it is almost as if pirates are fighting companies. (now you might not agree with this part, but ive read a lot on this subject that strongly suggests that pirating actually increases sales if the product is good, but decreases if it is bad).
In the past, when pirating in Spain was considered ... normal, id play games like that and buy those I liked. I didnt buy those I didnt like, but then again, I didnt even finish them. Nowdays, I can afford games, but I dont play as much, so I can wait for 2 years for a game to drop its price to something im willing to pay.
So, today I watch youtube reviews and videos, and then decide If I want to buy a game. And let me tell you, I buy a lot less now than when I used to pirate games to try them out.
The real problem is that it seems to me as if companies "want" you to pirate. They introduce so many problems for anyone who buys the original games, that it becomes a nightmare to try to play them.
One of the things that was a easy way to keep my conscience clear in terms of pirating when I used to do it, was that everytime Id send a support question to a company trying to fix a problem, they would answer with nothing usefull at all. Hell, I even got more than once answers like: "We dont support this game anymore, sorry" or "The servers were closed due to the decline of the game's popularity".
You know what kind on answer youd get in a community of pirates? "Check page 1467" (they actually remember the page to help yo), or "here is a link to a youtube video so you see how to get it working" or even "I modified the patch, should work now".
Sure, some of those places were dangerous and full of viruses, but most of them were easy to spot and clean.
It is hard to blame those that try to help you, and support those who dont care about you at all, so long as you paid them.
If it's a fix then its a mod that is compatible with the game, kind of tosses out the whole lets steal a game theory. For example I can purchase KOTOR II and download the fan made mods.
Yes, it is the community that does the work, not the company.
Great link your business article (not some editorial from a thief) proving that fact otherwise you are posting opinion as fact which makes you look foolish.
Actually its easier for me to give you the opposite. Articles that claim the loss of money and economy due to piracy, and how foolish their calculations are (besides, most of the data I read was in Spanish, so it probably would not help you much):
http://bigthink.com/the-moral-sciences-club/does-internet-piracy-really-hurt-the-economy
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130727/02110623966/piracy-doesnt-create-loss-to-economy-to-particular-industry.shtml
You can compare those articles to something like this:
http://copyrightandtechnology.com/2013/01/27/yes-piracy-does-cause-economic-harm/
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511995
Key part here "For instance, Forrester Research (2002) and Jupiter Media Metrix (2002) find neutral or positive effects, whereas the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (2002), Edison Media Research (2003), and Forrester Research (2004) document a sales displacement. A general difficulty with these studies is that they compare the purchases of individuals who download files with the purchases of those who do not. While downloaders may in fact buy fewer records, this could simply reflect a selection effect. File sharing is attractive to those who are time‐rich but cash‐poor, and these individuals would purchase fewer CDs even in the absence of P2P networks."
It is fairly easy to find a drop in sales in a popular record after week one and blame it on piracy becasue "The record just started to get pirated, so people are not buying it anymore", but it might also be becasue in week one everyone who really wanted to buy that record already bought it.
It is too easy for any study to be biased in one way or another, but I can tell you from my experience that If I did not pirate back in Spain, Id never buy over HALF of the games I bought, because I did not even know they existed.
Now tell me, how many of the records mentioned in the quote did you know existed?
Ah the root of the the reason you steal, you don't want to spend the money. 99.9% of the reason anyone steal entertainment goods.
Sure, if you want to use that simple view to make your point, go ahead. I doubt however that you will convince many to change their mind if the way you make an argument is like this.
Yes companies want you steal, it's a fantastic business practice.
Again, not useful. If you take it out of context, and write down a cynical ironical etc comeback it might make you feel better, but you are not adding to the conversation anything that might help with the problem.
Yes, it is the community that does the work, not the company.
Great link your business article (not some editorial from a thief) proving that fact otherwise you are posting opinion as fact which makes you look foolish.
Actually its easier for me to give you the opposite. Articles that claim the loss of money and economy due to piracy, and how foolish their calculations are (besides, most of the data I read was in Spanish, so it probably would not help you much):
http://bigthink.com/the-moral-sciences-club/does-internet-piracy-really-hurt-the-economy
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130727/02110623966/piracy-doesnt-create-loss-to-economy-to-particular-industry.shtml
You can compare those articles to something like this:
http://copyrightandtechnology.com/2013/01/27/yes-piracy-does-cause-economic-harm/
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511995
Key part here "For instance, Forrester Research (2002) and Jupiter Media Metrix (2002) find neutral or positive effects, whereas the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (2002), Edison Media Research (2003), and Forrester Research (2004) document a sales displacement. A general difficulty with these studies is that they compare the purchases of individuals who download files with the purchases of those who do not. While downloaders may in fact buy fewer records, this could simply reflect a selection effect. File sharing is attractive to those who are time‐rich but cash‐poor, and these individuals would purchase fewer CDs even in the absence of P2P networks."
It is fairly easy to find a drop in sales in a popular record after week one and blame it on piracy becasue "The record just started to get pirated, so people are not buying it anymore", but it might also be becasue in week one everyone who really wanted to buy that record already bought it.
It is too easy for any study to be biased in one way or another, but I can tell you from my experience that If I did not pirate back in Spain, Id never buy over HALF of the games I bought, because I did not even know they existed.
Now tell me, how many of the records mentioned in the quote did you know existed?
Ah the root of the the reason you steal, you don't want to spend the money. 99.9% of the reason anyone steal entertainment goods.
Sure, if you want to use that simple view to make your point, go ahead. I doubt however that you will convince many to change their mind if the way you make an argument is like this.
Yes companies want you steal, it's a fantastic business practice.
Again, not useful. If you take it out of context, and write down a cynical ironical etc comeback it might make you feel better, but you are not adding to the conversation anything that might help with the problem.
I always see that justification thrown around. How many people actually go back and buy a legit version of the game when they are already running a stolen one though? Probably a few but my guess is that would be a very small percentage. Even then that doesn't change the fact that these people are stealing and then possibly going back to pay if they decide it's good enough. It would be like going into a steakhouse and eating and then leaving without paying because the food didn't blow your mind. With reviews, youtube, and everything else available on the internet it's easy to see how well a game will run without stealing it.
I have never needed to do this but downloading a cracked version of a game you already own because Steam, uPlay, or Origin is preventing it from working is a different situation. If you paid for a game up front you should be able to play it. Stealing something because you wanted to try it out first is still stealing though.
I am one of those who buys the legit version.
Nowdays with youtube and similar I agree that pirating is simply not needed. This was not the case some years ago however.
Also, your analogy of the steakhouse is slightly off.
If I go to a steakhouse and they bring me something that you cant eat, im not gonna pay for it. Thats what happened with sim city, diablo 3, battlefield... But you cant return it, and you already paid for it.
In your example, Id have to go to a steakhouse, pay up from and then HOPE that I will get my steak at all. And if i dont get it, well, we will give it to you... somewhere in the future. That is the correct analogy.
I have never needed to do this but downloading a cracked version of a game you already own because Steam, uPlay, or Origin is preventing it from working is a different situation. If you paid for a game up front you should be able to play it. Stealing something because you wanted to try it out first is still stealing though.
I am one of those who buys the legit version.
Nowdays with youtube and similar I agree that pirating is simply not needed. This was not the case some years ago however.
Also, your analogy of the steakhouse is slightly off.
If I go to a steakhouse and they bring me something that you cant eat, im not gonna pay for it. Thats what happened with sim city, diablo 3, battlefield... But you cant return it, and you already paid for it.
In your example, Id have to go to a steakhouse, pay up from and then HOPE that I will get my steak at all. And if i dont get it, well, we will give it to you... somewhere in the future. That is the correct analogy.
If a demo sucks, you dont usually waste your time pirating the full version of the game 😀. I mean, I dont know about others, but If i dont want to play something, why bother downloading it in the first place?
I got a lot of games in Steam that came with a 40 game package that I never installed...
Ive been reading some of the posts here and Im unsure about something:
If a company creates a false advertisement, or changes unilaterally the terms of agreement of a software you bought, you dont get any chance except a law suit to get your money back, but this is something acceptable. Did you know that companies deliberately add illegal rules in the terms of agreement that are flat out dismissed in any court, just to make consumers think that there is nothing they can do? (for example, If you sell in Europe, and I dont want to sign the terms of agreement I can BY LAW return the game to the store, and say that I do not agree to the terms of agreement of the software and take my money back. Why? Because I had to buy BEFORE i could read the terms of agreement. Well, at least that was 3 years ago, no idea how it is today.
And yet, if you go to every store and ask, they will all tell you that you cannot return the game once the box has been opened.
On the flip side, if you pirate a game to see if it is any good or even working (assuming you WILL buy the game), you are still the bad guy.
Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.
To that I say BS. It is the same BS as the double standard of feminism, the same BS as go to war for your country, the same BS as the fact that the economy needs inflation.
Now I agree that you can read reviews to find out all you need to know before you buy, but did you realize how much time you will need to do that?
How many reviews are full of crap and rate every major title at 10/10?
Personally, I dont like piracy as well (even thou I defend those who pirate because I can understand them), but I sure as hell dont buy any games anymore in the first months (hell, steam even has days when you can play some games for free and see if you like them).
I never bought any game that uses Origin or Uplay, or something like that that I dont know about.
Ive been trying to get mass effect with DLCs, but nope, you need to buy bioware points for that... well, I wont buy mass effect then.
You need origin for battlefield 3-4, well no battlefield for me.
You need Uplay for assasins creed? OK, another title ill miss.
If a company creates a false advertisement, or changes unilaterally the terms of agreement of a software you bought, you dont get any chance except a law suit to get your money back, but this is something acceptable. Did you know that companies deliberately add illegal rules in the terms of agreement that are flat out dismissed in any court, just to make consumers think that there is nothing they can do? (for example, If you sell in Europe, and I dont want to sign the terms of agreement I can BY LAW return the game to the store, and say that I do not agree to the terms of agreement of the software and take my money back. Why? Because I had to buy BEFORE i could read the terms of agreement. Well, at least that was 3 years ago, no idea how it is today.
And yet, if you go to every store and ask, they will all tell you that you cannot return the game once the box has been opened.
On the flip side, if you pirate a game to see if it is any good or even working (assuming you WILL buy the game), you are still the bad guy.
Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.
To that I say BS. It is the same BS as the double standard of feminism, the same BS as go to war for your country, the same BS as the fact that the economy needs inflation.
Now I agree that you can read reviews to find out all you need to know before you buy, but did you realize how much time you will need to do that?
How many reviews are full of crap and rate every major title at 10/10?
Personally, I dont like piracy as well (even thou I defend those who pirate because I can understand them), but I sure as hell dont buy any games anymore in the first months (hell, steam even has days when you can play some games for free and see if you like them).
I never bought any game that uses Origin or Uplay, or something like that that I dont know about.
Ive been trying to get mass effect with DLCs, but nope, you need to buy bioware points for that... well, I wont buy mass effect then.
You need origin for battlefield 3-4, well no battlefield for me.
You need Uplay for assasins creed? OK, another title ill miss.
Yes, but here is the problem I have with that statement: Its backed by nothing. If I said that 0% find harm in stolen digital goods, you say: Give me proof. If an article says, 85%+ find harm, you accept it at face value.
Sure, I might not have the same reputation as a site and article you never even read, but that is waht I meant by double standard.
If I could read all those 40 studies, see how they were done, see their data and their conclusions, then Id cosinder that information valid. Till then, it can be simple propaganda from companies that want to blame piracy for all their problems.
I am not saying it is propaganda, I am saying I cant know. But the thing that bothers me is that you defend that with no proff, and yet you want proof for everything said differently.
As a curious fact, did you know that when a scientist tries to prove a theory, the tries to prove it wrong?
But in this case, seems like everybody puts the idea first, then looks for the data that supports it.
Of course you will find it in the internet. Hell, look for data on the internet on how an elephant can play the piano.... im sure you will find something.
Well, im exaggerating, but you get my point.
I was not breaking the law (please note that I was doing this about 8 years ago, not at the current day, yet you still talk like it is something I keep doing and I dont.).
In Spain it was legal. I am not sure if it still is, as I no longer live there. So I did not need to prove anything.
You can argue about the morality of this act or not, but not the law, as in Spain, it was on my side. Therefore, If i need proof, you need proof.
So far the trend has been to slowly make it illegal in most countries to make it illegal, but then I wonder what the future will hold for services like youtube, filled with free content that use copyrighted material. I would argue that it is also illegal in this instance.
So far, I have been able to link at least something and argue about it. your claims are without any support at all except your own words. I dont think I am the one beeing foolish here, but the one beein fair and showing both sides of the story.
You say you work in media, so you have a clear incentive to defend it (as it is your income).
In this case, it will be hard to get anything non-biased from your posts.
Neur0nauT
Admirable
- Dec 1, 2014
- 1,526
- 1
- 6,460
Guys, guys.....lets just agree to disagree.
I think piracy is bad, however I also think corporate business practises are bad also. When the small developers lose out it's the worst. It's this that just promotes, and enables the monopolising corporate machine to extort more money from the consumer, be it via DLC or Premium pricing models. Then we all lose out.
Someone Somewhere
Titan
- Sep 23, 2012
- 22,291
- 8
- 84,965
Again, making sensational claims and generalizations.
you wanted a link:
http://computerhoy.com/noticias/internet/ley-propiedad-intelectual-aprobada-como-me-afecta-20337
https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2014-11404
You will have to translate it. Basically it says users will not be penalized for pirating for personal use. Only those who want to spread the intellectual property or get income from its distribution will be fined. Also, there will be no fines unless there is a formal law suit from the Inteletcual property owner against the transgressor, and even then the transgressor will have 10 days to take down the contentment without being fined.
In terms of the articles you link: The first one I cannot open, probably due to adblock.
The second is an opinion of a person writing a column. There is no data, just subjective opinions and comparisons (very similary how you have till now tried to prove your point).
Id love to debate with you on this subject forever, but my time is better spent doing other things.
Besides, everytime you write, you use other peoples and articles words. There is a benefit for thinking for yourself, rather than repeating what others say.
And please, stop calling piracy stealing. If it was the same thing, we would not have two words for it. If Piracy is stealing, then when you pirate, you would be acused of stealing, and you are not in countries where piracy is illegal.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s074.htm
Please learn the definition of a word before you try to acuse others.
For something to be stolen, it has to represent a clear an tangible loss for the victim. It has never been proven, it has only been assumed.
Sure, its not perfect and I dont think its fair, but there is a large difference from a person stealing your watch, where you lose the item, lose its value, lose the time and money you spent to acuire the watch than copying a digital game.
So is piracy ok? No.
Is it stealing? No.
I rest my case.
Oh and, as a side note, if someone in the internet like you calls me a fool, and says that piracy hurts the company they work for... im not inclined to want to help you, but rather not to.
You mgiht want to rethink your strategy to convince others.
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