why not mb support for 2-8 cpu`s?

Zoron · Mar 4, 2005

Read it damn you!!!

I'm putting a gun to your head right now... READ IT!!!!

YAAAAARHRHRHRR!!!

 If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it.

Rugger · Mar 4, 2005

dammit - I actually came back in and read it!

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arnold873 · Mar 4, 2005

its over i hope

your all just a bunch of slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around

arnold873 · Mar 4, 2005

yeah lets get some people banned
........... um hey wait

your all just a bunch of slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around

Guest · Mar 4, 2005

Lol

 Woohoo!! I am officially an Enthusiast !! 
 One new Firefox fan

slvr_phoenix · Mar 4, 2005

To those who dare attempt to read what will probably be my longest post ever, I salute you.

I THOUGHT YOU SAID IT COULDN`T BE DONE THAT WAY
HELLO

No, I said that your suggestion was a useless concept because the motherboard would cost a fortune, as would the RAM unless you killed the memory bandwidth by having all processors access the same RAM, and the performance gain using your method would be negligable at best and truly suck compared to a high-end single CPU at worst. I never said that it couldn't be done, just that you'd have to be dumber than a flatfish to do it your way. And I even went so far as to suggest that just paying the money for the already created solution of a server platform would be a much better idea. But then this is what I've been saying all along. You don't listen. And as long as you continue to ignore what people actually say, then you're not discussing anything.

AND LEARN WHAT THE WORD CREATIVE MEANS

**ROFL** I think you need a new dictionary. You seem to have bad definitions for a growing number of words.

PEOPLE SID THE SPUCE GOOSE WOULDN`T FLY AND IT DID
SO MAYBE HOWIE SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ALL THESE LOSERS THAT SAID "HEY IT CAN`T BE DONE THAT WAY"

And that was money and time well spent, wasn't it? Just because something works doesn't mean that there aren't other methods to get better results. Which is what I've been saying to you all along. Your original concept wasn't worth the effort. Better methods already exist.

WELL WHEN LETS SAY WHEN ATI PUTS OUT ITS VIDEO CARDS THEY HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS (DEPENDING ON PRICE POINTS) BUT THEY PUT THE SAME CHIP IN ALL THE CARDS AND ONLY ALLOW THE ACCESS TO PART OF THE PIPES DEPENDING ON WITH LEVEL YOU BOUGHT I THINK THATS AN ABUSE. WHEN INTEL STARTS CHARGING FOR HT TECHNOLOGY EVEN THOUGH IT WAS IN A LOT OF THE PRIOR CHIPS BUT NOT TURNED ON, THATS AN ABUSE

**ROFL** That's an abuse? So in your perfect world these companies should waste the money to have eight different production facilities to produce nearly identical products, that, because of the much higher cost to produce on these different production lines, would cost the end consumer considerably more. And because each production method is independant it also means that any bug fixes, improvements, etc. would all have to be applied to each and every different production line which again costs a lot more money and time, and again screws the end consumer.

Yeah. Your idea here is so much better than producing them all on one production line to save incredible costs and make product and process improvements much cheaper and faster to implement. Those evil corporations are abusing us by providing lower prices and faster fixes. Those bastards!

I DON`T CARE, U MUST BE ONE OF THOSE LAZY PROGRAMMERS

Why, you're right! I've never learned 16 and 32 bit assembly to conserve resourses by optimizing code at a low level. I've never even run a profiler in my life. And I always use random access for sequential operations whenever possible because I know just how much you hate that. Why, I'm just the laziest programmer to ever walk the face of the Earth. You've got me soooo pegged. I give up. You win. I'm giving up my high-paying job right this second and becoming a taxi driver. I've always wanted to annoy new people...

I`M NOT WRITING A BOOK I`M ANSWERING AN IDIOT AND I DO NOT CARE ABOUT SENTENCE STRUCTURE. ANY QUESTIONS?

Sure. Here's a question: Does your lack of care about little things like grammer also apply to important aspects of your life like your ability to pay attention and apply common sense?

AND THE CU FOR THE AI WOULD BE GENERAL THATS WHY I`M PROPOSING RUNNING IT ON A CPU, DUH!

You still haven't explained how you're going to fix the memory bandwidth problems and production costs of your eight-way P4 motherboard. Nor for that matter have you explained how this system of yours is going to run faster than a single high-end CPU.

HAD YOU THE ACTUAL ABILITY TO READ AND THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN THAT I HAVE CHANGED MY VIEWS ON MY ORIGINAL IDEA SEVERAL TIMES

Right. So far all that you've done is used the argument that multithreaded software must be common if multi-cored CPUs will one day exist to support your idea for a "CUMULATIVE ARRAY OF INEXPENSIVE CPU`S". So then show me where your view has changed "SEVERAL TIMES".

AND AS FAR AS THE SUPERIOR THING GOES, BLOW ME.

No thanks. Even if you were the most handsome bloke on Earth your personality alone would make me gag. Besides, I don't know your medical history. I don't take those kinds of chances. But thanks for the offer anyway.

FIRST OF ALL I AM GERMAN.

I'm not sure if that makes your misuse of the politically touchy word better or worse... :\ I mean you would think that if anyone should know better...

SECOND NOT ONLY GERMANS WERE FASCISTS THE ITALIANS WERE TOO, SO YOU FORGOT THEM.

I didn't forget them. I just don't know of any that post here, where as I do know that a considerable number of Germans do. It was really just a matter of tailored concern for the target audience, not an intent to hurt anyone's feelings by leaving them out. But maybe you're right. If anyone was offended by my failure to mention all countries affected by fascism, then please accept my faux paus in the good intention that it was meant for.

AND LASTLY WHAT DOES THE FACT THAT I BRING UP FASCISM HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BE CARELESS.

It has nothing to do with bringing it up. Used in a proper context and thoughtful way there's nothing wrong. You however abused it carelessly. I'm sorry if you're not intelligent enough to undertsand the difference.

YOU ARE ONE SIGHTED AND SEEK TO PERSERVE YOUR PERCEIVED SUPERIORITY BY PUTTING OTHERS DOWN AND TRYING TO SUPPRESS THEM JUST LIKE THE FASCISTS. AS A MATTER OF FACT YOUR WORST THAN THE FASCISTS YOUR LIKE STALIN. OK COMRADE

Do you actually see me trying to suppress anyone? So far all that I've done is try to point out the failings of your concept. Elucidation is hardly fascism. Nor for that matter is the perception of superiority when it is actually supported by reality. I can't help it if you're this uneducated about computers, but so long as you are, I do have superior knowledge to you in that field. I've even offered you the sage advice to research and learn so that you can actually carry a decent-to-intelligent discussion about computers. It's not my fault that you can neither accept your own shortcomings nor work to overcome them. I've certainly done my best to help you with that.

Further, Communism is actually not a bad idea in and of itself. It's a bit too idealistic to work in the face of the human motivation of greed mind you, but the original intent certainly had its merits. That's why a nice balanced system is so often used today. There are elements of Communism in nearly every government model if you take the time to look. Even the supposed opposite of Capitalist America actually takes some resources from workers to distribute them to the those who need them. Mind you, national health care and more federally run services such as driver's licence, unemployment, and foster care would do a lot to improve things. Even still there are elements of Communism already at work helping the people of the United States.

Besides, if I'm anything I'm more Draconian, but that's another subject all together. 😉

MY AGE IS OF NO IMPORTANCE TO YOU
JUST KEEP IN MIND I`M OLD ENOUGH TO SPANK YOU LIKE ONE OF MY CHILDEN

Well I was going to cut you some slack if you were like eight or something, but so long as you continue to claim adult status, I see no reason to give you that leeway. Though I suppose that if you were old enough to be suffering mental deterioration or senility I might have reason to be a little nicer...

i agree slvr dldo thinks he`s clever but he`s not.

There's really a strong case going now that you suffer from extremely selective reading/hearing/whatever. P4man never said I wasn't clever. He said that I think I am, and "in this case, he is right.." Which is the point really. Were I wrong then I wouldn't really be all that clever, now would I?

Besides, you really should listen to people like P4man and Zoron, and well, hell, pretty much everyone here. (My appologies for not listing everyone by name. I don't mean to leave you out. I'm just too lazy to list you all. So please don't take offense.) They're all pretty smart. You could learn a lot from them ... if you stopped to actually listen and discuss.

i just don`t appreciate slvr dldo acting superior to myself.

Acting generally implies behavior contradictory to reality, where is in this case it really is the reality. So I wouldn't say that I'm acting superior. I simply am, at least to you, in the subjects of computers, English grammar, and probably style as well. What do you other folks think? Do I have more style?

In reply to:
------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to be clever and invent something new, find a way to make a game engine really benefit from multithreading. The hardware part of the solution is easy, and already done, just not usefull yet.

------------------------------------------------------------

i think this is more something for slvr dldo.

Actually, I've already fielded this one myself. I still think that an arbiter in a multi-cored CPU is really a better way to go than trying to multithread everything. I still consider the barrier a predominantly hardware issue. It's just too darn fiddly to multithread effectively. I don't think it will be done on a large scale until someone designs the hardware better for it. At the very least it likely won't be done on a large scale until multicored/multi-processor boxes become a noteworthy chunk of the SOHO market segment to make the considerable effort and cost to software engineers economicly feasable. Until then it'll remain reserved for niche applications and demented hobbyists.

what i`m saying is i think a lot of programmers are writing sloppy too extensive code.

Then what you're saying now is considerably different from what you were saying before. It's still generally insulting to many programmers, but perhaps not entirely unwarranted either. (Mostly, but not entirely.)

games are frequently sent out not completed
requiring numerous patches

Years ago I would have agreed with you there. However having seen things from the inside, I have to say that 99.99% of the time this isn't the programmer's fault. I've seen way too often where upper management takes a cue from marketing to release long before the engineers are ready, or for that matter even close to finished. If engineers ran companies things would be considerably different. But alas, people are more concerned about making money than they are about providing quality. Such is life.

lets get going slacker
do some free overtime

**ROFL** Just for the fun of it I actually counted my unpaid overtime hours over the past year. It's a shame that as a salary worker I don't get comp time. I could use the seventeen extra days of vacation. Unfortunately I don't have such a lazy excess of paid time off like some people do...

i`m on vacation so i have a lot of spare time
...
and i get 9 weeks a year

And you can call me a slacker? Wow.

must first start by saying that i received the private e-mail that you sent me. i feel bad that you have such a hard life. Being molested by your father now thats rough. and later on in life ending up in jail and again being molested. Your wife must be taking hard too, especially since that pussy is not tight enough for you now. I guess thats why she became a prostitute.

**ROFL** Wow. I'll give you kudos for trying to be creative, even if that is on such a pre-adolescent level of wit. However you've got pretty much every possible detail wrong. My father died in a car accident when I was six. It was my foster sister that molested me ... not that I really minded though. 😉 And while proudly serving my country in the US Air Force and earning an honorable discharge did at times feel like jail, it really wasn't. Though at that time I was molested again, by the 2nd degree Wiccan priestess that was my teacher, but again, I didn't mind that either.

And my wife, unfortunately, is so disinterested in physical romance that she's actually given me the okay to have an open relationship with other people, so long as she reserves the right to veto them should she not like them. Which, in general, works for me since I still love her, but I also still have needs. It's a shame though as I'd usually much rather spend the hours pleasuring her. But hey, we each have our own burdens to bear. At least when she is in the mood she's pretty tight. (Though sometimes maybe a little too much so.) And as for the prostitution, that's actually me. I mean when you're that good you might as well use your talent to make a little money, you know? But only a little money really, as I reserve pretty high prices and am rather selective, since I can afford to be.

what do u work for microsoft? xp is better but its still a piece of crap. 2 sp`s 50 downloads, how much more before we have a finished product?

Statistically, given the number of lines of code involved, I think M$ isn't doing too bad of a job. Granted, they could be doing better, especially with their support of Unicode. But really, if you don't like their software then just don't use it. The OpenOffice2 beta is looking pretty promising for a change. Though a lot slower, it's functionality and interface are almost as good as Word. And if you don't mind all the work involved in using Linux, it's really not a bad OS. Though it too has seen its share of bugs. It just gets a much faster update to fix them, thanks to being open source and all. Of course recompiling kernels is kind of annoying. The whole Windows Update system really is a lot more user-friendly. It's really a game of preferences. What are you willing to put up with to get as close as you can to having your needs met. Nothing is perfect.

However, I don't think that any software is ever truly finished. There is always room to better optimize or add more functionality even when there aren't bugs to fix. If anyone ever declaired their software absolutely finished, I'd probably laugh at them.

well thats certainly part of what you do when you judge a game. The fact that i left every factor out is an oversite, but then why are you such a picky f*ck?

I never said that it wasn't a part of what you should do when you judge software. I'm picky however because you're clearly making snap judgements without appreciating (or for that matter even noticing) the considerable ammounts of work involved in improving 95% of the software. (The non UI part.)

i don`t understand idiots. especially when they bang their heads against the wall, saying multi core cpu`s don`t exist
there will never be software for them. baka!

Interesting. I say that multicore CPUs are still months away from hitting the market and multithreaded software won't become predominant until the hardware to utilize multithreaded software is common and you read that as multicore CPUs don't exist and multithreading software never will? Do you have a reading disorder, or are you just naturally that oblivious to reality?

try reading the articles on toms jackass
intel is going almost exclusively multi-core in the future

1) I believe what you meant to refer to is Tom's Hardware Guide, not Tom's jackass. I'm not sure that he even owns a donkey.
2) Tom's Hardware Guide is hardly the end-all of informative journalism. In fact they've really been slipping the last couple of years. It's quite a shame really.
3) Just because Intel is going hardcore on multicore doesn't mean that the majority of software is going to be (or will gain from being) multithreaded anytime soon. It is highly debatable if multicored CPUs will be worth the investment for the majority of people. I can't help it if you're too uneducated to understand that.

real sensible! about all you have done was lob insults at me.
so i`ve replied

Actually, if you had paid attention, you'd have found a lot of useful information in my posts. Further, you would also have found that there are very few insults aimed directly at you. Your ideas, sure. Implication and inuendo, definately. Too bad you're not smart enough to tell the difference.

what r u an english teacher?
oh im` sorry i forgot your english teacher rufus molested you too. no wonder your fascination.

No, I'm an author and a programmer for a scientific company. As such I have standards. I am a professional after all.

well a discussion is when you have a give and take of ideas
and not just say no its not possible. especially since IT IS being done with multi-core cpu`s, jack ass

Actually, until the hardware is out and the software is written to take advantage of it, it isn't being done with multi-cored CPUs. Further, I already said that existing solutions were out there. The concept in general to distribute computing better is a good one. It was just your suggested implementation that was worthless. I gave you the explanation for why it was worthless and the better alternatives. It's not my fault that you're so uninterested in an actual discussion that you refused to run with that useful information and instead chose to repeat yourself and argue.

oh i`m sorry sorry i`ll be sure to remember that that next time i put you down, jackass

If you call what you've been doing putting me down, well, then you've been putting yourself down too, because that's pretty sad.

Please do try to do better. You're really not making this the challenge that it usually is. It's kind of depressing. But it's also kind of fun, so hey.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
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RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
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Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

slvr_phoenix · Mar 4, 2005

You forgot to mention that consoles also don't have to run their games at 1600 x 1200 with a 85Hz refresh rate.

Yeah, it's not hard to make your graphics run fast when they're on 640x480 @ 60Hz. **ROFL** And they look so stunning too. I'd still much rather have a real monitor than a TV screen for my games.

On the surface, consoles may seem like they can outperform a PC... but as P4 said... when you take into consideration how much more a PC is doing while playing a game. All a console does is play the game... nothing else going on in the background. If a console had to do half the work a PC does, it would choke big time.

Plus let us not forget that a PC can ugprade the RAM speed and size, the hard drive speed and size, the processor, the graphics, and even the sound. Consoles ... well, they just typically don't even have upgrades. In fact usually they can't have upgrades because the software wouldn't be written for them. (Though that N64 graphics memory upgrade was a cool, but again, only certain games supported it.)

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

Rugger · Mar 4, 2005

I have to say that is the LONGEST post I have read to date! I thought this thread was done, but there was a kicker thrown in at the end. Give him a little break on the grammar, it's a secondary language for him.

I kept picturing a couple of Cocks struttin around the chicken coop, trying to attract the most hens. :lol: To be honest Arnie has been a lot more open-minded in his posts since this thread - you two just got some ruffled feathers.
<pre>"Can't we all just get along?!" Rodney King in '91/92 </pre>__________________________________________________
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arnold873 · Mar 5, 2005

you know what rugger your right
i wish to get along with slvr pheonix from now
on. i think it was just a misunderstanding.
I came to these forums to learn and he taught me the hard way i should not have taken it personally i just wish he were a little nicer about it; i mean you wouldn`t put down a retard for not knowing something, right? And basically my knowledge of pc hardware and software is small, but i`m learning.

your all just a bunch of slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around

slvr_phoenix · Mar 7, 2005

I have to say that is the LONGEST post I have read to date!

It may be the longest that I've written to date. :O It's a good thing that I don't blog. I'd fill up the entire internet in a week. Governments would have to fund server ugprades just to support me constantly uploading all of that text. (And if people actually read it, the world itself might end.)

Give him a little break on the grammar, it's a secondary language for him.

Hey, mine has been far from perfect. I don't pick on people for little things. I usually don't even pick on them for moderately bad grammar. But some writing is just beyond "a little break". **LOL**

I kept picturing a couple of Cocks struttin around the chicken coop, trying to attract the most hens.

**ROFL** Except that I have no intention of attracting anyone/thing/whatever. I picture it more like the Fox TV show <A HREF="http://www.fox.com/house/" target="_new">House</A>. He's my latest role model. :O (Truth or humorous lie: You decide.)

To be honest Arnie has been a lot more open-minded in his posts since this thread - you two just got some ruffled feathers.

I know. The question in my mind is, was it just a matter of time, or did the 2x4 to the head help that along any? **ROFL** Either way, it's cool. That was all I was trying for in the first place.

If there's one thing I've observed in this life, it's that when people aren't responding to niceness, sometimes you just have to try something else. 😉

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

slvr_phoenix · Mar 7, 2005

i wish to get along with slvr pheonix from now
on.

That's cool. It actually doesn't take much.

I came to these forums to learn and he taught me the hard way i should not have taken it personally

I wouldn't necessarily say that it was the hard way. No actual blood was spilt. 😉

Seriously though, you're right. You shouldn't bother taking these things personally. There's no point in stressing out over someone that you don't even know. I mean, for all that you know, I'm just a well programmed AI.

i just wish he were a little nicer about it

Meh. I started off pretty neutral. And even then I only took a less-than-sunshine stance because you weren't listening to anyone.

mean you wouldn`t put down a retard for not knowing something, right?

I'm not sure where your analogy is going. Are you a retard? Do you need coddling and special attention?

And basically my knowledge of pc hardware and software is small, but i`m learning.

That was clear enough from the beginning. You obviously had potential. You just had no real knowledge to back it up, and you had a rather bad attitude towards the industry. However with a little learning and time, there was the possability that you'd get there. Hence why I said more than once to go out and research, learn a little, so on, and so forth.

Anywhy, such is life. Live, learn, and try not to get blown up if you can help it. No one likes cleaning up that mess.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

arnold873 · Mar 8, 2005

i`m glad you replied to my last post
first i must say you are a better man than i am
certainly i would have wanted to jump through the monitor screen if you had written me a message like that
so, i appologize.
and second you are correct, i`m just don`t understand why intel is making such a big deal about dual core if it is of no use right now. i assume they do it just to create a buzz and sell more cpu`s.
y intel doesn`t restructure their cpu to be more efficent and effective i`m not sure (i guess to "rebuild their tech would be too costly) the amd cpus are more effective at a lower clock speed. intel could have added more cache and more circuits but i also guess they would hit a performance threshold here too. y did they not, for instance, add the memory controllers on the die like amd did or include the other bridges on the die along with more gpu functions and the like?

you have cited my lack of pc knowledge and you are correct i know very little about pc`s except how to build them something a chimp can do , but something only a smart man can do well and I build them decent. i look at pc hardware in a theoretical way, and i guess in theory it would work (multi cpu`s) but in reality it is costly and would not add performance as far as my lack of software knowledge comes from the fact that my first "real" pc was an amiga 500 and as you might know the amiga was pretty advanced at the time and had a windows interface so i never really learned how to command the computer with keyboard inputs somethng taht would have given me some knowledge of programming.

as far as everything else in your reply i agree with you and i also feel sorry about your situation with yur wife i could not have made up anything worse than that if i tried. I would be very upset if my wife felt that way.
has she tried hormone therapy? some women find it beneficial.
the only thing i find offensive is the fascist thing
the point i was trying to make is
germans were fascist along with other countries and fascism was a type of political system like communism
but the germans in particular were nazis which is much different than being just a fascist. hell there are fascists right now, like castro.
technically speaking castro is a dictator/communist. I`m not too sure of the minor differences between fascists and dictators but i`m sure it is very little, even communists are sort of the same. well who cares, my point is i would never try to offend germans in fact i have utmost respect for germans since i am of german decent. and i was not throwing the term around loosely since a fascist is a person that try to control through intimidation and power wheras the germans were also fascists they were nazis in particular.

in any case i`m sorry for everything
and i hope everyting works out ok for you

your all just a bunch of slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around

ChipDeath · Mar 8, 2005

hey, don't stop now. All that flaming was saving on my central heating bill 😱

Seriously though, well done for lightening up.

Life's too short to get worked up by some anonymous stream of characters from the other side of the world.

---
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1Gb @ 209Mhz, 2T, 3-5-5-10
Voltmodded Sapphire 9800Pro @ 450/350 w/ modded VGA silencer 3.

slvr_phoenix · Mar 8, 2005

i`m just don`t understand why intel is making such a big deal about dual core if it is of no use right now. i assume they do it just to create a buzz and sell more cpu`s.

Exactly. Intel just wants to sell chips to make money. So they make it a big deal because some bloody tech reporter got it in their head that it is a big deal and now, like the usual tech lemmings, nearly everyone expects the same. Before dual core it was 64-bit CPUs. Before that it was Intel's Hyper Threading. Intel, AMD, Apple, etc. can't help it if the tech industry is so poorly understood that these buzzwords are hyped far more than their actual impact. All that they can do is take advantage of that misunderstanding to sell more products and keep their ignorant customers happy.

In an ideal world, spending the time to educate their customers should have an even better result. Unfortunately every time that's been tried it has failed miserably and usually just resulted in yet more misunderstanding instead of actually fixing anything. :\

So now no one bothers even trying. It's just not worth the money spend to educate the idiotic masses, especially when you can spend that same amount of money in marketing those misunderstood buzzwords and make a heck of a lot more money from it. **ROFL**

If you want you can consider that the big corps 'taking advantage' of us, but the reality is that only those who refuse to learn get taken advantage of, and of those being taken advantage of, they all brought it upon themselves in the first place.

y intel doesn`t restructure their cpu to be more efficent and effective i`m not sure (i guess to "rebuild their tech would be too costly) the amd cpus are more effective at a lower clock speed.

1) A lot of people just assume that Intel hasn't because they're either too set in their ways or not capable of doing it. But imagine if they did. What would happen to AMD then? Personally I think Intel is just making sure that they don't become such a giant market majority that they become a clear monopoly. Monopolies have to play by nasty rules, and no one wants that if they can help it. So it's better for Intel's business to not restructure their CPU.

2) Look at the Pentium M. Being based on the P3 core, it kicks the P4's arse on a clock-for-clock basis, and in general keeps up pretty well with AMD's CPUs on a clock-for-clock basis. I expect that eventually Intel will release a Pentium M based core for desktops, and hopefully with better FP performance when they do.

y did they not, for instance, add the memory controllers on the die like amd did

The research that I did indicated that AXPs were very strongly (as far as memory goes) affected by memory timings. The A64s were affected just as much so, but with their ondie memory controllers had reduced memory latency even more. The P4s on the other hand were much more affected by a lack of bandwidth than by faster memory timings. So P4s having an ondie controller would get this same lesser affect as they got from faster memory timings. Sure, they'd get some benefit, but not nearly as much as AMD was getting. So I guess Intel just didn't consider it worth the effort.

I'm fairly certain that the reasoning for this is that Intel's prefetching is better. If your prefetch misses (or your cache just runs out) then you have to hit the main memory banks. If your prefetch hits then you don't have to suffer from those memory latencies.

When Intel gave their CPUs more cache, it made a significant improvement. When AMD gave their CPUs more cache, it made a much smaller improvement. Why is this? Because Intel is filling the cache with more usable data than AMD is, AKA a better prefetch.

And so long as the prefetching and cache is better, you're not going to suffer from slow memory latencies or gain from an ondie memory controller the same as you would suffer if you had a crappy prefetch.

It's just a difference in architectures. Intel makes sure that they're handling the right data in cache to mitigate access of the main memory. AMD just makes sure that they can access the main memory as fast as possible. Intel gains more from a larger cache. AMD gains more from faster memory access.

or include the other bridges on the die along with more gpu functions and the like?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here...

as far as my lack of software knowledge comes from the fact that my first "real" pc was an amiga 500 and as you might know the amiga was pretty advanced at the time and had a windows interface so i never really learned how to command the computer with keyboard inputs somethng taht would have given me some knowledge of programming.

While it's true that I originally learned computers on Vic20s, Commodore 64's, and Apple IIes, this really didn't have any impact on understanding software better. (Though it did help my programming chops a bit.) To understand what software really does you just have to look. Marketing blurbs babble on about things like more realistic physics or better networking all the time.

To understand how to code though, that's best spent in classrooms, with good books, or with experienced friends/coworkers/etc.

I would be very upset if my wife felt that way.
has she tried hormone therapy?

I get frustrated at times, but so long as we love each other so much, I doubt that I'll ever get so far as upset. That's just life really. If it's not one thing, it's another. There's always give and take. Nothing is ever perfect.

Our current leading suspect is actually 'the pill'. When she was on her Australian version she was very different. So we're suspecting that the American version has something to do with it. We've actually tried a couple of different hormone and even pheromone products, but to no avail. We'd consider trying a different pill, but right now we're a lot more concerned about not having kids until we move back to Asutralia than we are about that, so it's a weighing of priorities. Besides it's not like there aren't some advantages that help to offset the situation. **LOL**

the only thing i find offensive is the fascist thing
the point i was trying to make is
germans were fascist along with other countries and fascism was a type of political system like communism
but the germans in particular were nazis which is much different than being just a fascist.
...
my point is i would never try to offend germans in fact i have utmost respect for germans since i am of german decent. and i was not throwing the term around loosely since a fascist is a person that try to control through intimidation and power wheras the germans were also fascists they were nazis in particular.

While I understand what you are expressing, I don't think that you really realize that you were throwing the term around incorrectly and therefore loosely. Neither Intel nor AMD can hardly be called fascist. They aren't forcing anyone to do anything. They aren't even in control of anything. We, as the market, are in control. And we, as the market, can buy (or not buy) whatever we want. Acting in concert, we could even force changes on Intel or AMD. Fortunately for Intel and AMD however, we, as the market, are all dumber than <explitive never entered>.

Actually, it's the same reason that democracy works so well for the government in the US. In theory the people have the power. In reality there are far too many stupid people preventing the effective use of that power.

in any case i`m sorry for everything

No worries.

Besides, I'm far more interested in seeing people grow and benefit their community far more than I am in seeing people spin their wheels on things like apologies. Actions speak louder than words, you know? When you're sorry you do better, and to me that's the important part.

and i hope everyting works out ok for you

It always works out ok, just often times it works out differently from what I had expected.

Expectations are great for planning ahead, but horrible for living by.

Have a good one.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
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slvr_phoenix · Mar 8, 2005

hey, don't stop now. All that flaming was saving on my central heating bill

**ROFL**

AMD sucks! :evil:

<pre>Is that better?</pre>

Life's too short to get worked up by some anonymous stream of characters from the other side of the world.

Damn skippy.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

arnold873 · Mar 9, 2005

my original ideas for cpus was to add more fuctions to the chips but when dual core started to be discussed i figure multiple cpus was the way to go, i now understand why dual core is not the greatest idea.

however do you think cpu speed would benfit more from dual core or an expansion of cpu function?
that is to say dual core or single core with more added features such as rudimentary gpu, sound and AI functions?
I feel eventually (20-30 years) all the functions of the entire pc will be able to fit on one chip (albeit some external caps and resistors will still be needed).
my thought is can some rudimentary gpu functions be put on the cpu and be beneficial? My understanding is amd`s 3d now was along that lines. The sound functions of lets say the audigy 2 could be placed on the cpu die could they not?
i mean the process they use to shrink the die for dual core could be applied here - get rid of the other core and put the sound circuits here. I don`t think too many would complain. sound quality of the audigy 2 can`t be improved much can it? the thing is 7.1 with a sn ratio of 108
Or would this not improve anything?

as far as AI. Your correct you cannot set anything in stone here. But could you not impliment some rudimentary functions
that are scalable and tweakable. ie., wayfinding in a game
if object exists here then follow path closest to route in direction of waypoint. if enemys exist in path all combatants temporarily exit travel mode then join combat. these type of general commands (here in relation to a rts but many others could exist)
can be built into the cpu and the programmer just has to designate player units a, b, c to follow script 1a in situations 5, 6. (or something to that effect, i actually have no idea because i`m no programmer)
for instance in a fps
one can say player without weapon poses threat 0
with a bat poses threat 1
and so on (the weapon type actually doesn`t matter but the threat level does)
so enemy one can become more aggressive depending on the threat level as so
player 1 threat 0
enemy 1 aggression 10
aggresion would change depending on threat level

same as far as proximity, line of sight and objects, etc.

anotherwords the AI would be very very rudimentary and changeable anotherwords extra code sould of course be written if need and the existing funcions can be turned on or off as needed or altered
player 1 threat level o
enemy 1 agression 8
see here the enemy is still weary of player even though he is unarmed, this can also be tweaked across characters
anotherwords;
player 1 threat level 0
enemy 1 aggression 4
enemy 2 aggression 8
enemy 3 aggression 10

"your all just a bunch of fuc*ing slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around" -jim morrison

arnold873 · Mar 9, 2005

Our current leading suspect is actually 'the pill'. When she was on her Australian version she was very different. So we're suspecting that the American version has something to do with it. We've actually tried a couple of different hormone and even pheromone products, but to no avail. We'd consider trying a different pill, but right now we're a lot more concerned about not having kids until we move back to Asutralia than we are about that, so it's a weighing of priorities. Besides it's not like there aren't some advantages that help to offset the situation. **LOL**

i`m sure you have seen a doctor regarding this issue and if you haven`t i suggest you do because this sounds like a possibly major problem. (birth control is a hormone and hormones are know to stimulate tumors and these can put pressure on areas of the brain effecting behavior/ stimulation/pain/vision ect.) Not to mention things like diverticulitis which can cause painful intercourse and thus an aversion and dryness, localized infection, std`s, localized tumors (ovarian), cysts, and hosts of other things. most likely this is purely a hormonal issue so at least have her try a different pill to rule this reason out, in any case have her see a MD.

"your all just a bunch of fuc*ing slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around" -jim morrisonEdited by arnold873 on 03/09/05 01:30 AM.

arnold873 · Mar 9, 2005

oh, no prob bob
slvr pheonix ain`t so bad

"your all just a bunch of fuc*ing slaves
how long you gonna let them push you around" -jim morrison

juin · Mar 10, 2005

What make you think it easier to built a mothersboards with HTT over share bus.

i need to change useur name.

P4Man · Mar 10, 2005

>I feel eventually (20-30 years) all the functions of the
>entire pc will be able to fit on one chip

Look up Cyrix MediaGX on google. It had everything you mentioned, and its what, 10 years old ?

>Or would this not improve anything?

Not much. You'd save some bucks because you don't have to qualify, package, etc as many chips. You pay for it in decreased performance, higher thermal density and less flexibility. Its probably the future for low end devices though.

As for you proposed AI API.. ROFL. Its not going to be anywhere NEAR that high level, it would make zero sense. You are almost hardcoding an entire game engine in silicon here. No,such chips, if they ever materialize will give you some *far* lower level API's and libraries to speedup parts of the AI computing. Much more flexible and faster that way. I don't know enough about current AI routines to write anything on the subject, but I could imagine it would be closer to a dedicated processor that speeds up neural networking. If your algorithm consists of "If A then B" clauses, a CPU would be the best device to execute it on.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

P4Man · Mar 10, 2005

>What make you think it easier to built a mothersboards with
>HTT over share bus

Common sense.

And the fact that HTT is serial, very low pin count and uses LVDS signalling, whereas traditional FSB's are synchronous, parallel, very high pincount multidrop busses. A world of difference in design and manufacturing complexity.

Never wondered why Xeon MP is limited to just 400 MH FSB versus 1066 for Pentium 4, while 4 way Opteron 8xx systems use the exact same HTT speeds as bread and butter 1 CPU desktop chips ?

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

slvr_phoenix · Mar 11, 2005

however do you think cpu speed would benfit more from dual core or an expansion of cpu function?
that is to say dual core or single core with more added features such as rudimentary gpu, sound and AI functions?
I feel eventually (20-30 years) all the functions of the entire pc will be able to fit on one chip (albeit some external caps and resistors will still be needed).
my thought is can some rudimentary gpu functions be put on the cpu and be beneficial? My understanding is amd`s 3d now was along that lines. The sound functions of lets say the audigy 2 could be placed on the cpu die could they not?
i mean the process they use to shrink the die for dual core could be applied here - get rid of the other core and put the sound circuits here. I don`t think too many would complain.

Putting these kinds of things on the CPU core wouldn't gain you what you would imagine. The audio processing is done efficiently on a card over a PCI bus. It hardly needs CPU integration and probably wouldn't gain anything from it. Same with a useless GPU integration. If you want dinky graphics, there are some motherboards with that built in. Integrating that into the CPU wouldn't be any better.

In fact, if you really want to make a better integration, it'd be best to integrate audio and physics into a graphics card. A 3D graphics engine already defines one 3D space. 3D audio defines a second, and 3D physics defines a third. Why waste all of that effort to define the exact same 3D space in three different ways? It would be much more efficient if the graphics, the audio, and the physics were all integrated into one device, all running with a nice unified API. You'd save a ton of repeated processing and memory with something like that.

Another thing to think about is that the more specific units you put into a CPU, the longer the CPU's pipeline will have to be. Plus you'll eat up more of the CPU's cache for these specific units and likely lose general purpose throughput to pass data to and from these specific units. All of that together will make the rest of the 'normal' processing considerably slower. It might work fine for a console where your processing speed isn't all th at important, but no one is going to want that for a PC.

sound quality of the audigy 2 can`t be improved much can it? the thing is 7.1 with a sn ratio of 108

First, the electronic aspect of the quality can always be improved more. The more bits you throw at it, the better your resolution. Sure, you'll at some point exceed the hearing capabilities of a human, but that doesn't mean that it still isn't better. 😉

Second, the signal to noise ratios and channel counts have nothing to do with processing. Signal to noise ratios are created partly from the digital to analog conversions and partly from the actual quality of the analog lines and their insulation from picking up forms of electronic noise from other lines and components.

Third, the number of channels involved just depends on how many you want to bother with. Someone could easily design a hundred channel system and record (or synthesize) music for all one hundred channels. However storing all of that music data for that many channels would waste a huge amount of memory, would take one hell of an expensive card to fit that many channels on, would suck elecricity like the dickens, and likely no one would ever set up their system with 100 speakers to utilize it. Heck, as it is, most SOHO users only have two speakers. So 7.1 could easily be improved upon, but in reality so few people are using it that there'd be no point in going higher.

as far as AI. Your correct you cannot set anything in stone here. But could you not impliment some rudimentary functions
that are scalable and tweakable.

As already said, your examples are things that a general CPU could perform quite efficiently. AI is just one of those things that everyone tailors to suit their uses. Defining a general purpose AI interface wouldn't get anyone anywhere. It's not like light (graphics) or physics where there are set rules that define how it should work. AI is just too free to restrict into an interface. It's just best left to the CPU.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
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NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

slvr_phoenix · Mar 11, 2005

i`m sure you have seen a doctor regarding this issue

We have, allopathic, psychological, and homeopathic. There's nothing physically wrong. She's perfectly healthy. She even enjoys it. She's just not interested. It's either hormonal or just her personality. Most likely it's just the specific prescription. And we have plans of changing that, just not for another two years. We'd rather move to Australia without accidental kids than try a lighter prescription and hope it does its job. Once we're settled in however she may even go off it entirely, at least until we have a family.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre>

arnold873 · Mar 13, 2005

edited ;
i didn`t realize you said allopathic medicine
well thats good

people are strange and when your a stranger faces seem ugly when your aloneEdited by arnold873 on 03/13/05 02:44 AM.

arnold873 · Mar 13, 2005

Putting these kinds of things on the CPU core wouldn't gain you what you would imagine. The audio processing is done efficiently on a card over a PCI bus. It hardly needs CPU integration and probably wouldn't gain anything from it. Same with a useless GPU integration. If you want dinky graphics, there are some motherboards with that built in. Integrating that into the CPU wouldn't be any better.

i don`t mean to improve it this way, that is the point i don`t think sound can get much better that audigy 2zs quality (albeit extra channels) but rather to decrease the parts count, in the same way you said multi cpus couldn`t work because of high costs, intergration into the cpu would decrease the parts count and also the price.

In fact, if you really want to make a better integration, it'd be best to integrate audio and physics into a graphics card. A 3D graphics engine already defines one 3D space. 3D audio defines a second, and 3D physics defines a third. Why waste all of that effort to define the exact same 3D space in three different ways? It would be much more efficient if the graphics, the audio, and the physics were all integrated into one device, all running with a nice unified API. You'd save a ton of repeated processing and memory with something like that.

its funny that you mention that because a company just announced a physics chip, which the article alluded to becoming intergrated into the cpu sometime in the future and i imagine it could also be intergrated into the video card as you suggested.

Another thing to think about is that the more specific units you put into a CPU, the longer the CPU's pipeline will have to be. Plus you'll eat up more of the CPU's cache for these specific units and likely lose general purpose throughput to pass data to and from these specific units. All of that together will make the rest of the 'normal' processing considerably slower. It might work fine for a console where your processing speed isn't all th at important, but no one is going to want that for a PC.

is this why amd`s are faster?

As already said, your examples are things that a general CPU could perform quite efficiently. AI is just one of those things that everyone tailors to suit their uses. Defining a general purpose AI interface wouldn't get anyone anywhere. It's not like light (graphics) or physics where there are set rules that define how it should work. AI is just too free to restrict into an interface. It's just best left to the CPU.

you don`t think certain albeit possibly limiting functions could be set in hardware? that is to say possibly not AI but rather if you look at a human for instance we have intellegence (thing we "believe" to know and critical thinking) automatic reponses (pull your hand away from a flame) and unconscious/conscious reponses usually from learning (fear of dogs since you`ve been bitten, fear of a certain object like a belt, the belt your parents beat you with, unknown fear of clowns, a clown molested you, and so on) Where i`m going here is a small base can be made and built upon maybe first gen AI can be automatic responses such as when you hit another character he could either fight back harder or flee (fight or flight) he would "feel" the pain, that is he will "actually" respond to it in a very basic way (the programmer can decide how the character behaves in a more complex way, what weapon he will draw and so on)
The first AI would have the intellegence of a say an earth worm. One thing characters wouldn`t do is act the same evertime; like in the above example the character might be so fearful that he might go to a part of the level he wasn`t scripted to go and thus the game becomes unpredictable much the same way it does when you play a real person. In the future, the characters could learn how to set ambushes and work in groups they could learn and adapt to situations and so on.
i guess this can all be written in the software, i guess this is as bad as my idea i had for video cards; to have textures built into rom - another words have many megabytes of textures loaded into roms on the video card and have the programmers raytrace the scene and like paint by numbers have the video card apply the textures the programmer designated into those spots. Any textures not on the card can be added by the software. I realized this was a stupid idea and i guess the same would apply with AI.
One good idea i had years ago was to put music on chips and i wrote to a company online with this idea. My idea came about because i was annoyed with cd`s and that they skipped even though people said this wouldn`t happen that cd`s were perfect. at the time i had an amiga and i was always impressed with the sound this thing put out and i used to get floppy disks with techno music on them about 20-30 songs on 1 disk around what like 1.44mb per floppy so i though why don`t the cd companies put this music out on chips and i wrote to diamond multimedia at the time and gave them this idea later they came out with what i think had to be the first mp3 player. I`m not sure if they used my idea or someone else had come up with it, i`m sure mp3`s were probably out at the time so they just applied my idea to those. (the mp3 part i had not come up with even though i assumed some kind of compression had to be applied) well tell me what you think i had to have written to them around 1991-92

people are strange and when your a stranger faces seem ugly when your alone

why not mb support for 2-8 cpu`s?

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