Windows XP Comes Integrated into Windows 7

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scryer_360

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VERY Good idea. When I deal with business customers, the one thing keeping them from jumping to Vista has been software they use that they licensed at high cost that wouldn't work with Vista. By providing the XPM, they can upgrade to Windows Seven (indeed, they can upgrade at leisure as computers break) without having to worry about those licenses.
 
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I hope Direct3D/OpenGL will be hardware accelerated under the new XP VM (Maybe NVIDIA could come to rescue with some nifty driver tricks). (And DirectSound 3D too for all those EAX lovin gamers out there.)

That would allow the large number of older games that have compatibility/performance issues under Vista to be happily run in Win 7 compromising compat or HDD space.

I do remember seering something somewhere about virtualizing 3d GPUs under VMs... pretty sure t was NVIDIA or VMWare...
 

cletus_slackjawd

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Okay, so now I want windows 7 but I was a late adopter of Vista (POST SP1)
and won't buy it unless I can get a low price (upgrade) option. This is a repeat of history for me unfortunately as I was a sucker and purchased Windows ME shortly before the Windows XP release was announced.
 

Mathos

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This news makes me happy.... Especially considering the fact that my Phenom has the AMD Vitualization thingy. Now the question is, if you're running Windows 7 x64, is the WinXPM running as a 32bit install. One of the problems I've had with some of my semi older games is they will not run on a 64bit OS. Not to mention I'm an unfortunate Soundblaster X-Fi Fatality owner that has no working driver support under vista. Though the Support for Win7 does seem to be better.
 

starryman

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I've been bashing Microsoft for years but damn! Including XP with Win7 in a seamless format is sweet. I think this is my first compliment to the folks in Redmond, WA since the day they started in New Mexico. Now I'm excited about Win 7. Good move.
 

Darkk

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Fine for home users but for Enterprise environment I'd stay away from it. Sounds great in theory but I wonder how well can we lock down Windows 7 alongside XPM?

Sounds like another marketing ploy to convince businesses to embrace Windows 7 without revealing all the facts.
 

ta152h

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Microsoft is a weird position where they are competing with themselves. Really, Windows XP sucked too, and was received much like Windows Vista when it came out. Windows 2000 was faster, and used less memory, and had a better interface, but Microsoft had to do something to make people believe they needed XP. It's the same with their Office software. It's had all the functionality it needed for a long time, but Microsoft needs to make new products, and they need to convince people that these new products have something new. The problem is, they end up giving little of what anyone wants, and just end up bloated, buggy and slow.

Still, what choice does Microsoft have? Certainly, they have to put out new software, even if no one needs it. It's their business model. Windows XP is nothing but bloatware, and Vista is more modern bloatware. Windows 2000 had what we needed and was really fast, and reliable.

By the way, DOS could never be implemented in NT for the people that have mentioned it. DOS was a single task operating system, and since that application could safe assume it was the only one running, it had complete power (it couldn't blow anything else up, since there was nothing else). Windows NT does not allow this, so consequently the DOS emulation is not 100% compatible, and in fact it's just an emulator that runs on NT. There's no way to make an operating system protect itself from a bad application with pure PC-DOS compatibility. OS/2 was the closest at it, being much faster than NT, using less memory, and having excellent DOS compatibility.
 
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ta152h: "OS/2 was the closest at it, being much faster than NT, using less memory, and having excellent DOS compatibility. "

Then why didn't it succeed?
 
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By the way, is this included in the Release Candidate due release on May 5th? If not, what kind of release candidate is it with missing features?
 
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Guys I don't think this compatibility thing is going to work for Device Drivers. This is only for applications as far as I know.
 
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I don't know if it's a good idea for Microsoft. I mean, just think of that revenue stream they are going to loose from people paying to downgrade to XP. =P
 
Finally, a virtualized XP enviornment that's easy to recover from and hopefully simple for the user to use. I never did like the way Vista was patched to run old unsecured XP code rather than sandboxing it in it's own environment. Would have made compatibility easier, though the programs would have run slightly slower.
 

ta152h

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[citation][nom]nounamaa[/nom]ta152h: "OS/2 was the closest at it, being much faster than NT, using less memory, and having excellent DOS compatibility. "Then why didn't it succeed?[/citation]

OS/2 1.x was made for the 286, due to IBM's insistence on it, since they were selling a lot of 286 machines, and, felt the 386 wasn't going to be mainstream soon enough.

The 286 had two modes, Real and Protected. Real mode was really a super fast 8086, Protected Mode offered memory protection, virtual memory, 16 MB of memory, etc... OS/2 was written in 286 Protected mode, initially.

The 286 started in Real mode, but could be easily switched to Protected Mode. The problem is, you couldn't switch it back. This is why Bill Gates called it a brain-damaged processor, although in fairness to Intel, they had no idea when the 286 was being designed it would be so important. In fact, it as incredibly fast (there's never been a jump like it since), and did offer compatibility, enormous amounts of addressable memory, virtual memory, and ability to protect applications from each other. A very, very enhancement from the previous design.

OS/2 1.x did have DOS Compatibility Box, but it wasn't great, and you could only open one application up at a time. In fact, we called it the "Penalty Box". OS/2 1.3 was the last 286 release, and in my opinion, outside of MVS, the most stable operating system I have seen. We had servers run for years without being rebooted. But, it still could not run DOS well.

By now you're thinking, if you needed the processor to run in Real Mode for a DOS app, and you couldn't get the processor to switch to Real Mode, how was it possible to have the Penalty Box? Well, you'd basically have to reset the processor, and since it came back in Real Mode, you could do it. They actually used the keyboard processor to help it recover. So, it was really an ugly way to do it.

Microsoft had Windows then, which was really a joke, but it was designed for the 386. Keep in mind, almost every application was written for DOS back then, so even though Windows had none of OS/2's features, it did have better DOS compatibility by virtue of supporting the 386. The 386 had two additional modes, the 386 Protected, which was a 32-bit version (which allowed 32-bit segments as well, which was very welcome) of the Protected Mode, which was renamed "286 Protected Mode", and another very important mode called "Virtual 86". Virtual 86 allowed the 386 to have multiple Real Mode sessions open at once, so in effect you could have several DOS sessions open in different Windows. Because of the shortcomings of Windows, you could not really multitask them well, because it only supported "Cooperative multitasking", meaning it was up to the application to hand over control, as opposed to pre-emptive, where the operating system handles time slicing. So, if was far from perfect, but it still offered considerable advantages over the Penalty Box.

Because of this advantage, and since most people generally needed to run their DOS applications better, people bought Windows, even though it sucked. OS/2 was far more reliable and stable, and multitasked properly, but it didn't run DOS apps as well. So, with people first buying Windows to run DOS apps, they developed a large installed based, and then software companies started writing apps for Windows.

OS/2 2.x and later supported the 386, and offered excellent DOS compatibility. It was called "A better DOS than DOS, a better Windows than Windows", since it could run DOS and Windows apps. In fact the first claim was true, the second was not, but wasn't too far from the truth. But, by the time OS/2 2.x came out, it was too late, Windows had a dominant market share, and although OS/2 made some inroads, it was just too late.

By the way, Windows NT was originally called OS/2 3.0. It was supposed to be a platform independent version, and it was for a while, but since x86 is dominant now, there's only that version. Sadly, they couldn't copy the OS/2 interface, since that was proprietary IBM, and Microsoft and IBM had split up before OS/2 2.0 came out (IBM was annoyed at Microsoft for aggressively supporting Windows, since OS/2 was a joint project for the companies, and the agreed upon future operating system).

The OS/2 interface was remarkable; everything was an object, and was treated the same way. There was also a standard interface design, SAA, that was supposed to be followed for any applications developed for OS/2, and really other operating systems as well. And after you were ready to release the app, there was the SAA police to look it over and make sure it complied :p.

So, the reason OS/2 didn't succeed was the decision to make the early releases 286 based, and the consequent issues with DOS compatibility. It was a very good operating system, although it had a shared message que which was a big mistake.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but you asked ...
 

Herbert_HA

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It took too long for MS to use this solution...it's not GREAT idea, it's just a idea long overdue. They knew that Vista would be incompatible with many XP applications and did almost nothing to rectify this.

They should stop worrying of people saying they copy good ideas and do it already! So what? Make the damn best piece of software they can, period, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel every time.
 

michaelahess

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For those of you against this, think about Apple. OS X wouldn't exist right now if they hand't had a full OS 9 VM to support old software inside OS X. Nobody would have bought it if they had to upgrade all their apps at one time, which they would have needed to do.

Granted they were able to phase it out after a few versions, but that was more because they forced users to upgrade software to OS X capable versions. But they did it slowly at least.

Vista is about 10 billion times more compatible with old Windows software than OS X was with OS 9 software without the VM, so people bickering about Vista compatability are just bitching for the sake of bitching.

With XP VM'd in 7, it will be perfect (assuming it works as advertised) for anyone that still relies on XP only software.

Microsoft is starting to scare me with all these intelligent moves.
 

cablechewer

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BTW, some other things that hurt OS/2 were (all of these are subjective and based on my memory):
-version 2.0 was buggy. I remember it was rushed out the door to try and combat Windows 3.0. The price was that, for a while, OS/2 earned a poor reputation. Everything was fixed with 2.1, but by then the ship had sailed and IBM was still on the dock.

-I had several people comment that Windows 3.0 and 3.1 were prettier and easier than my OS/2 desktop. As long as you didn't have any problems that may have been true, but in my experience OS/2 was easier to work with.

-Once Microsoft had the installed base they got all the attention from the driver and hardware manufacturers. IBM was focused on business, but Microsoft had the consumer market sewn up. For a vendor looking to release a new sound or video card this made OS/2 a low priority and helped force OS/2 into a downward spiral where people wouldn't buy an OS with poor hardware support and vendors were slow to support it because the installed base was too small. I think this is part of why linux doesn't take over now.

-of course the DOJ case has other reasons for how this went, but that is a whole other can of worms that I won't come any closer to touching.


Oh well, water under the bridge now though I really miss the object based GUI. Microsoft has yet to design an interface I like half as much as the old one from OS/2.
 

blmage

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W7 is awesome already, beta is a little buggy but certainly very impressive (beta already beats Vista-SP1 Premium in my opinion). I could see the fit & finish version has the potential to really warrant an upgrade for many of my "non adopter" clients, if this proves to be true ABSOLUTELY AWESOME! I will whole-heartily recommend upgrades to EVERYONE I've built a system for in the past 2 yrs. Just wonder how they're going to handle Security of XPM, separate firewall? separate AV? I can see advantage for both options. Could definitely be a big loophole and security issue if common users don't know they need 2 av/firewalls if one doesn't cover both. I'd really like to see the same options and a bunch more for the XPM environment that VirtualPC has available. GREAT IDEA!
 
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