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zak_mckraken

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@wildkitten and Cazalan : WoW has a tremendous amount of content. The problem is that it becomes obsolete as soon as an expansion comes out. What they need to do is find a way to keep old instances and raid compeling. One cool way was the adding of the dungeon finder tool. That way, people leveling toons could easily find a groupe for a low-level instance while grinding their xp. However, it isn't enough since leveling is faster than before.

Raids like AQ, SSC, BT, Kara and the like are solely run for achievements and people farming mounts or legendary weapons. They should find a way to compel players in doing them at least once in the leveling process. Or make them scale to the players level (bosses and items). Or, dare I say, make them mandatory in order for the player to move to a new zone? I know those ideas won't catch up, but you get my point : there is content, Blizzard just have to find a way to make it fresh.
 

wildkitten

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[citation][nom]Cazalan[/nom]WoW has roughly 150 instances of varying 5/10/25 man raid content. The later ones offer multiple difficulty levels which make the fights unique. A new game can't possibly have that level of content. Gear grindfest? That's every MMO. Collect new shiny bobbles to equip on your character.[/citation]
Only about 6 or 7 dungeons are relevant to max level players. And 5 person isn't a raid, only 10 and 25 are. As for multiple difficulty levels, there has only been two, normal and heroic. That started in Wrath. Initially, with Naxx, OS and Malygos, 10 mans were normal and 25's were considered heroic versions. With ToC they introduced normal and heroic within both 10 and 25 man modes.

And what I mean by gear grindfest is that is all there is. There is no immersion, no feeling like your character contributes to the world. Practically every boss that has been "killed" has returned. There is even talk of Illidan coming back. The whole "[blank] was merely a setback" has become a huge, tired joke within the game.
 

wildkitten

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[citation][nom]zak_mckraken[/nom]@wildkitten and Cazalan : WoW has a tremendous amount of content. The problem is that it becomes obsolete as soon as an expansion comes out. What they need to do is find a way to keep old instances and raid compeling. One cool way was the adding of the dungeon finder tool. That way, people leveling toons could easily find a groupe for a low-level instance while grinding their xp. However, it isn't enough since leveling is faster than before.Raids like AQ, SSC, BT, Kara and the like are solely run for achievements and people farming mounts or legendary weapons. They should find a way to compel players in doing them at least once in the leveling process. Or make them scale to the players level (bosses and items). Or, dare I say, make them mandatory in order for the player to move to a new zone? I know those ideas won't catch up, but you get my point : there is content, Blizzard just have to find a way to make it fresh.[/citation]
And once it's obsolete there is no point in running it unless you are someone who wants achievments and you need one or more from it. Even then it is so easy it's not even enjoyable.

They could keep older raids and dungeons compelling by taking a page out of Guild Wars book and not increasing the level cap, at least not every expansion. And they could stop making such huge gaps in gear's stats.

And the dungeon finder did not make a way to keep old instances compelling. For one thing you can not even use it to queue for dungeons past your XP level, not that you would anyway as there is no point. In all, the RDF has been a negative for the game because it destroyed the community. It used to be that once you got known for someone who put forward an effort in a dungeon you got groups. People who had trouble pre-RDF getting groups were ones who would not enchant or gem and didn't even try. Since RDF was introduced, it's a mess of players who just don't care about trying which of course frustrates players who do.

And I agree, older raids should be required for progression when someone levels, but the Farmville style player which Blizzard has cultivated would complain incessantly. Just look at what happened with simple attunements. The old attunements was part of telling the story, it explained why things were happening with the story and set the stage for the upcoming raid. But of course Blizzard catered to the "we hate the story, just give us purples" crowd.
 

sykozis

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RDF hasn't had a negative effect on the game at all. People that otherwise wouldn't be able to get into dungeons, can easily do so because of RDF. I do question the long-term effects that the Raid Finder will have on the game. I gave Raid Finder a shot lastnight. I joined the group at 2/4 bosses down. With no experience in Dragon Soul and absolutely no explanation of the fight, Yor'sahj was easily doable with no assistance other than the addon "Deadly Boss Mods" running. Hagara on the other hand, took my group 3 attempts to completely master....again, with no explanation or previous experience. If you have a group of players that actually pay attention to what's going on, the mechanics can easily be picked up as you work through the fight. It might take a few untimely deaths, but the mechanics are simple enough that they can be learned "on the fly"... All in all, I'm actually pretty disappointed with the content patch as the 3 dungeons combined only took my guild based group 45mins to run through. My guild's GM reported that the Raid Finder variation of Dragon Soul only took 45mins from time of entry until the achievement was awarded....even with multiple requeues to replace players that "rage-logged"....

[citation][nom]wildkitten[/nom]Only about 6 or 7 dungeons are relevant to max level players. And 5 person isn't a raid, only 10 and 25 are. As for multiple difficulty levels, there has only been two, normal and heroic. That started in Wrath. Initially, with Naxx, OS and Malygos, 10 mans were normal and 25's were considered heroic versions. With ToC they introduced normal and heroic within both 10 and 25 man modes.And what I mean by gear grindfest is that is all there is. There is no immersion, no feeling like your character contributes to the world. Practically every boss that has been "killed" has returned. There is even talk of Illidan coming back. The whole "[blank] was merely a setback" has become a huge, tired joke within the game.[/citation]

Raids and Dungeons are both considered "Instances"....so, yes, WoW does have roughly 150 instances.
 

wildkitten

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[citation][nom]sykozis[/nom]RDF hasn't had a negative effect on the game at all. People that otherwise wouldn't be able to get into dungeons, can easily do so because of RDF. I do question the long-term effects that the Raid Finder will have on the game. I gave Raid Finder a shot lastnight. I joined the group at 2/4 bosses down. With no experience in Dragon Soul and absolutely no explanation of the fight, Yor'sahj was easily doable with no assistance other than the addon "Deadly Boss Mods" running. Hagara on the other hand, took my group 3 attempts to completely master....again, with no explanation or previous experience. If you have a group of players that actually pay attention to what's going on, the mechanics can easily be picked up as you work through the fight. It might take a few untimely deaths, but the mechanics are simple enough that they can be learned "on the fly"... All in all, I'm actually pretty disappointed with the content patch as the 3 dungeons combined only took my guild based group 45mins to run through. My guild's GM reported that the Raid Finder variation of Dragon Soul only took 45mins from time of entry until the achievement was awarded....even with multiple requeues to replace players that "rage-logged"....
Raids and Dungeons are both considered "Instances"....so, yes, WoW does have roughly 150 instances.[/citation]
I didn't say anything about instances. I was responding to the person who made the comment about 5/10/25 RAID instances. 5 mans are not raids. I didn't say that dungeons were not instances.

And yes, RDF has had a negative effect. Running with people you will never run with again has led people who are inclined not to do their best to indeed not do their best. Back in vanilla and BC a player's reputation mattered. People who were known to enchant and gem their gear and actually pay attention in a dungeon and not stand in the fire never had a problem getting into groups. With RDF you get people who will not enchant or gem their gear, or do so improperly. I have seen mages with strength and agility gems (just one example of many) and when you try to be nice to help them, you get called an elitist and told that they will do what they want. And if you kick that person, they go whine on the forums about how the mean elitists kicked them for "no reason". In response to the whining Blizzard makes it harder to kick people. So players who want to play the game as it was intended can't so it makes things frustrating. I have little doubt that the RDF is one of the reasons that subscriptions are down. WoW never increased, except for the slight bump in China when Wrath was released, during the time RDF has been in the game. In fact WoW has never grown since Blizzard made it so easy.
 

Cazalan

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[citation][nom]wildkitten[/nom]
The old attunements was part of telling the story, it explained why things were happening with the story and set the stage for the upcoming raid. But of course Blizzard catered to the "we hate the story, just give us purples" crowd.[/citation]

That's a good point on the attunements. It used to take significant work just to get into an instance. AQ took months to open and the whole server needed to participate. The majority of people just don't have that level of time, and that's what they've been catering to.

Instead of catering to hardcore elitists now the majority of people can see all the content. I think it's a good thing overall. Compare that to vanilla when maybe 2 guilds per server got to see the later bosses in Naxx. Is it good when only 20,000 people out of millions get to complete an instance? If 99% of the customers can not complete a game they will be pissed.

People can still do the questing if they want the story.

 

wildkitten

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[citation][nom]Cazalan[/nom]That's a good point on the attunements. It used to take significant work just to get into an instance. AQ took months to open and the whole server needed to participate. The majority of people just don't have that level of time, and that's what they've been catering to. Instead of catering to hardcore elitists now the majority of people can see all the content. I think it's a good thing overall. Compare that to vanilla when maybe 2 guilds per server got to see the later bosses in Naxx. Is it good when only 20,000 people out of millions get to complete an instance? If 99% of the customers can not complete a game they will be pissed. People can still do the questing if they want the story.[/citation]

I have to disagree. I am casual, the casual which was defined in vanilla as not having a lot of time to be on, not the current casual definition which means doesn't care to be good regardless of how much time is spent on game, and I never missed anything. No, I didn't raid much in vanilla, but not much of the story was ever told in the actual raiding, it was told in the quests and the attunements, which EVERYONE had access to and usually did.

I hate this argument that Blizzard only cated to the "hardcore elitists". The entire point of the a game like World of Warcraft is to immerse yourself into it. Guess what, that takes some time. If anything, Blizzard's big mistake was upping the level cap, at least it was with every expansion. If the cap was no higher than 70, all content would still be relevant.

Remember, WoW saw it's greatest growth during vanilla, a time when the game was considered it's hardest (not that WoW has ever been hard). Vanilla ended with 8.5 million subs. BC ended with 11.5 million subs. A year into Wrath, Kotaku had an article about how WoW was still at 11.5 million, it had not grown at all since it began supposedly catering to 'everyone'. Wrath only saw it adding to WoW's subscriber base by 500,000 only after it's late summer 2010 release in China, a region we now know aboslutely hated that expansion. With Cataclysm, subs have dropped 1.7 million in the first 9 months of it's release. Because of the fact that Blizzard supposedly catered to everyone as you put it, these "casuals" complain how hard Cataclysm has been. Problem is Cataclysm was NEVER hard, even pre nerf. All Blizzard did was make it so it was an AOE faceroll which hurt Wrath and made mechanics such as crowd control relevant. In the beginning Cata raids, if you knew not to stand in the bad stuff, you had no problems, but of course the people who claim to be the majority just want a tank and spank.

Let's also be honest about something else. These people who complained that the game was to hard and that they wanted to see "the content" really don't want to see the content. They care nothing of the story, which is the true content, they just want epic gear. And no matter how Blizzard has dumbed WoW down to the farmville level, they have never stopped complaining.

The fact is WoW is not some simple game that was ever intended to reach a player base of 50 million like Angry Birds or any other game someone could pick up and play for 5 minutes and put down. It was intended for people who wanted to spend time immersing themselves into a story, specifically the Warcraft story. The problem is, Blizzard by catering to the "casuals" have pushed away the true Warcraft fan because the story is no longer presented in the game.

The game didn't break EQ's subscriptions records the first day it was out because of casual players. It did so because there are millions of Warcraft fans, or at least were. Casuals aren't gonna line up for hours to get a brand new game they know nothing about. and if the so called "casuals" who just want to see content are so plentiful, why hasn't the game grown during the time Blizzard has catered to them? Rather, since they begun catering to this player type, the game has lost a substantial amount.

They also have the problem since they begun catering to this type of player that outside merchandise has been hurting. The comics and magazine have both been cancelled due to low sales, The Shattering had very low sales and the second pre Cataclysm novel was delayed and who knows if the third will ever be released. Associated merchandise is just not something the type of player you are celebrating will get. That's the type of thing a story fan will buy and it's weak sales show that the main Warcraft fan is leaving.

And yes, maybe not many saw Naxx, but people who constantly bring up numbers about only 5% or so seeing raids are just false. Every WoW census site shows about 67% of guilds finishing normal mode Firelands. Keep in mind too, a lot of people do not like to raid and or even do PvE. So just about anyone who wants in can get in. If they can't finish, that is not Blizzard holding them back.

And the LFR is showing a weakness with this "get it done fast" mentality. Some pugs through LFR have finished the raid after just 3 days. You really think these players will pay for WoW for another year when they just finished the expansion? No. So I think this next year will be even worse for Blizzard for catering to this player type.
 
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When you sell your soul to the Devil...you are tainted.
Bobby Kotick is the Devil and Cancer for WoW...and he WILL kill it.
 

wildkitten

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[citation][nom]Nubis[/nom]When you sell your soul to the Devil...you are tainted.Bobby Kotick is the Devil and Cancer for WoW...and he WILL kill it.[/citation]
He's a cancer for gaming in general, but people have to be careful not to blame Blizzard for his involvement.

Vivendi already owned Blizzard. Vivendi then bought Activision and Vivendi merged the two and placed Kotick as the CEO. Why they didn't make Morhaime the CEO, I will never know, but this insanity was all Vivendi and it's placed Blizzard between a rock and a hard place. They saw what Kotick did to the Infinity Ward people, and I doubt the Blizzard people want to cross him too much or you will end up with Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo done by people who had nothing to do with their creation like Call of Duty no longer has any of it's creators doing it.
 
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