X800PRO faster than X800XL

sweatlaserxp · Apr 13, 2005

I would be happy with either the X800XT or 6800U. I haven't seen any benchmarks that expose a serious performance disadvantage for either GPU.

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GAME · Apr 13, 2005

i pay not attentio to H's best playable settings. i hate them.

too much room there for them to draw conclusions for me, who are they to decide what playable is?

i require a lot higher than they do in certain games.

and in some games like warcraft, i require alot less than HL2 for instance.

i hate their reviews because of that, and their POS histograms. just one of the few reasons i stick to AT

in what games does "ATI shine in"? not much.
they have a SLIGHT and FAST CLOSING lead in HL2/Source. And all of this is the LACK of NV optimization at all, while its completely setup for ATI... considering such, NV does AMAZING in that engine. Its ATI, that even when optimized for it does not take a commanding lead.. its sad.

And before you say it, yes its not officially "optimized" for, but it caters to ATI in many areas like 24fp IIRC and not full precision. I dont remember all the details but i read them in the past.. basically its setup for radeons.

But you gotta look at reviews using 71.84 only or above. NV is taking major strides in closing the gap in games it does take 2nd place in. Even miniscule differences like that exist in HL2 (differences you wont notice w/o benching)

Overall, the DX performance between equivalent ATI/NV cards is too close to call without benching without doubt.
But OGL is a blowout.
Choice is easy.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 13, 2005

While it's funny watching some of this stuff, try and get the facts straight. I'll leave you to your op-onions about ATi vs nV, but do it based on fact not fiction.

"And all of this is the LACK of NV optimization at all, while its completely setup for ATI... considering such, NV does AMAZING in that engine. Its ATI, that even when optimized for it does not take a commanding lead.. its sad."

HL2 is no more 'optiomized' than D3 for this generation, and if anything BOTH are optimizaed for nV thanks to their FX series.

"And before you say it, yes its not officially "optimized" for, but it caters to ATI in many areas"

Same with nV and D3.

"like 24fp IIRC and not full precision. I dont remember all the details but i read them in the past.. basically its setup for radeons."

That just sounds like Anandtech forum BS there. Seriously check the details, and don't remember them like someone else told you them. HL2 IS full precision, full FP24 (ATi doesn't have a partial precision mode, everything is converted to FP24, unlike nV's partial precision modes/options) , which is the DX9 standard, and is what Valve originally expected the max of the cards in the market around it's launch. This isn't just setup for Radeons, but it does play best to their strengths, the problem is the nV cards can't use the partial precision benifits it usually enjoys without creating artifacts, so the usual FP16/32 benifit is gone.

"Overall, the DX performance between equivalent ATI/NV cards is too close to call without benching without doubt.
But OGL is a blowout."

Except for the fact that ATi is closing that gap too. In Call Of Duty, ATi is faster at max playable. And with D3 as much as you say the HL2 gap has closed so has the D3 gap. ATi's advantages in UT2K4 and FartCry are just as significant as nV's D3 advantage. So even the OGL advanatage isn't that big a deal anymore. The bigger advantage is the games that allow nV to use their partial precision calls so they don't have to do everything in FP32, and that's one of the nV-centric benifits, not that it's OGL.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

HL2 is no more 'optiomized' than D3 for this generation, and if anything BOTH are optimizaed for nV thanks to their FX series.

the simple fact is that doom3 was built around NV40 (or vice-versa depending on who you talk to), ATI just doesnt deliver the goods where D3 needs it.
X800 is not advanced enough.
Thats the problem, nothign was done to hurt ATI performance, it just doesnt offer what is needed.
Nvidia provides, ATI doesnt.

Same with nV and D3.

Wrong ape.
NV coudl do alot better in HL2 than it does. its default settings are best for older tech like X800.
Doom3 does better on NV because its more advanced stencil shaded shadows. No optimizations there, just better hardware.

HL2 IS full precision, full FP24

FP24 is not full precision, FP32 is. Thats the IEEE standard, not 24.
24 was a makeshift, go-between standard.

ATi's advantages in UT2K4 and FartCry are just as significant as nV's D3 advantage.

No its not. There is no advantage across the ATI product line to back this up. The X850XT PE MIGHT put you as correct in this statement.
But the X850XT PE ALONE (versus a 6800U).
And thats without SLI, which is not unfair to include in a comparison jsut because ATI doesnt have it.

From top to bottom of the current ATI product line, which is what my statements are intended for you are way off.
Unless you are comparing the x850xt pe to a single 6800U, which is fine, but not good enough for you to say-

ATi's advantages in UT2K4 and FartCry are just as significant as nV's D3 advantage

that! Not even close!

And there is the underlying problem. You have ONE card to debate with, the x850. The rest of the lineup gets murdered (6200 compared to whatever junk ATI has out now for lowend) or ultimately defeated (x800xl compared to 6800gt) in performance.

Which is why I'm speaking in broad terms saying "NV is equal to ATI in DX and blowout in OGL"

BECAUSE IT IS. Esp overall.

You, on the other hand (and your cronies) have to pick and choose.. but you still made a huge mistake saying "ATI has the lead in DX"

ATI has no lead in DX at all. Maybe in a hand picked battle between x850 and 6800U.. and thats a big maybe because its not across the board by any means.

But if you want to get down to the bottom of this, ATI leads nothing when you look into SLI numbers.
So even that statement in reference to "ATI has the lead in DX" is totally false.
You cant pretend SLI doesnt exist. Theres no DX advantage there for sure.

And the lead that the X850 MIGHT still have over the single Ultra is not only closing, but its in hand picked games in hand picked scenarios.

Saying "ATI and NV are equal in DX performance" is MORE than fair, and that is what I said! Look at the rest of their lineup, and not just the x850 and this makes my comment very generous to ATI.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you guys are just wrong.
I know it pains you to see ATI in such condition and Nvidia in top fighting shape, but its reality.. face it.
Quit trying to prove that ATI is the king of performance. They arent.

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

jsut as much as 16 to 24 was.

yes you can tell

quit making excuses for ATI you zealot
its not up to 2005 standards set by Nvidia and Microsoft with DX9C

just face it instead of making excuses

You need DirectX9C/SM3/FP32 full precision to see games the way the developer intended.

RX8 · Apr 13, 2005

For speed ATI WINS out right.

For

QUALITY of graphics i def IMO give it to nvidia.

 MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON!

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

oh?
what beats SLI then from ATI?

as far as i knew, NV held the speed crown.
/awaiting typical, but its too expensive response

Well, gotta pay to play. But they do hold the speed crown hands down.

and you just said they hold the IQ crown. which is prob true considering ATI's AA or AF tricks.. forget which, dont really care about them this gen.

RX8 · Apr 13, 2005

SLI holds the speed crown but theres nothing to compare too because it is 2 cards versus one please remember that small but very sugnifcant number.

2 vs one is just bullying.

one on one the nv card just gets beaten in a straight line by infiere quality of graphics which i put it down to cutting corners by ATI, thats why i sit here with a x800xt in my second systems in my sisters room and a 6800 sitting in my main computer as the 6800 has betta quality over the xt and it doesent have major driver conflicts with some games like the xt has and it runs DX 9c games in DX9c not 9B it also has sm3.0 which makes a differece in quality.

 MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON!

cleeve · Apr 13, 2005

the simple fact is that doom3 was built around NV40 (or vice-versa depending on who you talk to), ATI just doesnt deliver the goods where D3 needs it.

Actually, Doom3 was built around the Geforce3. The D3 engine was running on the Geforce3 platform before the Geforce FX ever existed, maybe even before the Geforce4.

jsut as much as 16 to 24 was.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but have you ever seen a 16-bit vs 24-bit color screenshot? That's 65,000 vs ~2,000,000. I'm sure you've seen banding with 16-bit textures in the past. There's a reson 24-bit is called "true color"... When the debate was going on, there were tons of screenshots showing what 16-bit precision on the FX cards did to certain shaders. Banding like crazy.

the x800xl should be considered
i wouldnt fault a guy for choosing one. but i would the rest of the ati lineup vs Nvidia

6200, 6600s, 6800s pretty much a damn solid lineup hands down
its really nice to see this kind of lineup from NV

it reminds me of ATIs lineup in the 9100 (<- an EXCEPTIONAL PCI card)/9500/9700 and 9200 (<-blah on that one actually)/9600/9800 days.

Solid lineup from top to bottom. I like to see that from anyone. Its just NV has that complete dominance now, and not ATI anylonger.

Holy shiznit, for once I am in total agreement with you as it pertains to AGP.

But in PCI-e, it's Ati that has the complete lineup:

$200 - The X800. 12 pipes trumps the 8-pipe 6600GT, even in Doom3 with AA! Slaughters the 6600GT in everything else. Not even a debate, SM 3.0 or no.

$300 - X800 XL. At less than $300, it matches the 6800GT at $100 less. Unused SM 3.0 functionality does not = $100 of value... No way.

As far as the X850XT, we both agree it'll go toe to toe against a 6800U.

Once again, SLI is obviously king of the PCI-e world, and kudos to Nvidia for stepping up to the plate with the drivers. But every other PCI-e segment is held by Ati.

Ati has the dominance in PCI-e, I can promise you there are more PCI-e X800 XL's than SLI setups out there.

________________
Geforce 6800 Ultra
AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

mozzartusm · Apr 13, 2005

what beats SLI then from ATI

Ive got an old 9600XT around here somewhere that will kick SLI's Butt :tongue:

Intel P4 550(3.4)@4.2 posted 4.8
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RX8 · Apr 13, 2005

Totally agree with ur last statement very strongly!!!!!!

\\\\\\\/////////

But in PCI-e, it's Ati that has the complete lineup:

$200 - The X800. 12 pipes trumps the 8-pipe 6600GT, even in Doom3 with AA! Slaughters the 6600GT in everything else. Not even a debate, SM 3.0 or no.

$300 - X800 XL. At less than $300, it matches the 6800GT at $100 less. Unused SM 3.0 functionality does not = $100 of value... No way.

As far as the X850XT, we both agree it'll go toe to toe against a 6800U.

Once again, SLI is obviously king of the PCI-e world, and kudos to Nvidia for stepping up to the plate with the drivers. But every other PCI-e segment is held by Ati.

Ati has the domenance in PCI-e, I can promise you there are more PCI-e X800 XL's than SLI setups out there.

/////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

 MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON!

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

Holy shiznit, for once I am in total agreement with you as it pertains to AGP.

But in PCI-e, it's Ati that has the complete lineup:

$200 - The X800. 12 pipes trumps the 8-pipe 6600GT, even in Doom3 with AA! Slaughters the 6600GT in everything else. Not even a debate, SM 3.0 or no.

$300 - X800 XL. At less than $300, it matches the 6800GT at $100 less. Unused SM 3.0 functionality does not = $100 of value... No way.

As far as the X850XT, we both agree it'll go toe to toe against a 6800U.

i still dont think that you have a "complete lineup" there tho.

look at that list. x800, x800xl, x850? its a patchwork quilt.

x800 plain is from "last gen" ATI.. this is CLEARLY a filler

.

and what about sub $200? if you dont dominate in sub $200 and $100, you can't claim a "total dominance"

But NV can get away with this with the 6200/6600/6800s. And its not on AGP, PCIE NV has complete dominance too. Its debatable in areas (6800gt vs x800xl)

BUT!
Its 10X closer to having complete dominance on PCIE than ATI is. The product lineup from ATI isnt full enough for that title on AGP or PCIE.

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

SLI holds the speed crown but theres nothing to compare too because it is 2 cards versus one please remember that small but very sugnifcant number.

2 vs one is just bullying.

WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! OK.
It doenst matter tho, the performance crown never comes "cheap". And the stakes have been raised for top-level performance by NV.. and soon by ATI.
Doesnt mean NV's crown is illegitimate, the game has been totally changed by Nvidia yet again.

And ATI was caught with their pants down.

From the recent Inq. article it sounds like ATI's "SLI" is really going to suck. I'd take NV's implementation anyday.
But it doenst matter, we'll see the benchmark differences wont we?!

LOL
All I can say for SLI is that it works perfectly, and that i get DAMN near 100% improvement in my games.

For instance in WoW, I get ~60fps on one GT with the settings i use, and with two I get ~100fps.
NOT bad at all. I was frankly shocked.

Just wait RX8, people that said "SLI IS TOO SLOW, TOO LOUD AND TOO EXPENSIVE" will suddenly embrace a WORSE version of SLI from ATI.

Its goign to be fun!

RichPLS · Apr 13, 2005

ONE OF THE HUGE advantages of ATI Multi VPU might be its ability to let you use two different ATI based cards. As we said before, ATI Multi VPU don't use any card interconnector although Nvidia does.
In Nvidia's case you cannot even use two 6600GT or 6800 GT cards from two companies since there may be incompatibilities. It is a problem even if you use different BIOSes on the cards. Two different cards simply won't work in this case.

ATI will let you use two different cards as its Multi VPU works in a different way. It tiles your screen like a chess board and each board can take care of different "chess fields". You will literally be able to take an R520 and plug it side by side with R423, X800 or R480, X850 board and make them render simultaneously. Faster boards could, for example, take on more tasks than slower board, rending more fields.

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

The NV interconnector is a very good thing.

I suspect if its able to use two differnet ATI based cards, use the PCIE bus and ATI's writing the drivers it wont be very efficient compared to NV's implementation.

One of the biggest downfalls to ATIs method is that you will prob need their stupid motherboard. Which no one wants.

ATIs method sounds "so-so" in theory, but NVs works in practice.

The way ATI is supposedly doing theirs is NOT the way I'd build SLI from the ground up. I think its clear they found a halfass way to do it quickly to catch up to NV.

cleeve · Apr 13, 2005

It can be patchwork or made out of paper mache, but the fact is Ati dominates PCI-e.

Sub $200? How about:

$140 - the X700LE, a slightly underclocked X700 PRO. Beats the vanilla 6600 up against it at that price...

$89 - The X600 PRO, which totally destroys the 6200 it's up against.

That's a pretty complete lineup, and it's covering the board better than NV's PCI-E lineup...

________________
Geforce 6800 Ultra
AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

you cant pick and choose like that.

just because a GF4 might be the best sub $100 card doesnt mean that NV dominates in todays product cycle

heck things would look a lot different if you want to look at it that way

im talking the latest full released ati product line (as i illustrated earlier 9200/9600/9800).. not HAND PICKED BATTLES in a vain attempt to win the war

your lineup looks a helluva lot different than the way ATI looks at their own lineup. I assure you.

I'm not saying its wrong, I'm saying if you want to play that way then we could get into a whole DIFFERENT argument.
But I'm speaking of the current released lineups from top to bottom by NV/ATI.

And NV wins there hands down. As fast or faster, SM3, DX9C, full 32FP. You get a video as fast or faster than the ATI equivalent and you get to see game the way the developer intended.

Seeing games the way the devs intended is a huge issue.

RX8 · Apr 13, 2005

well i cant wait for atis version of sli, and it will be really funny if it is [-peep-], but if it beats nvidia well we just have to see because that is hoping for a lot from ati.

 MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON!

RX8 · Apr 13, 2005

still no sli on that x700. the 6600gt has sli. betta upgradability.

 MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON!

cleeve · Apr 13, 2005

Seeing games the way the devs intended is a huge issue.

It sure is, and in a year or so when it's used it might have a strong bearing on whether or not you buy an X800.

But in a year or so, why wouldn't you be buying the next gen cards?

SM 3.0 is nice... but let's face it, it isn't used yet. Where it's used now (and for the forseeable future until the next Unreal engine is released) is in tiny effects that could be done just as well in SM2, but the devs want the checkbox feature on the packaging.

The only *real* SM 3.0 feature implemented in any game right now is HDR in Far Cry. Now, that is beautiful... but if the HDR capability in Far Cry is any indication how capable the 6x00 series is at performing intensive SM3 calculations, then the point is moot. HDR brings my 6800 Ultra to a crawl, what the hell good is it for 6600 and lower cards?

It's like saying the FX5200 is DirectX 9 compatible and has 32-bit precision, when in reality it's too slow to do Dx9 and calculates everything in 16-bit so it doesn't look like a slide show.

(On a side note, HDR in Far Cry is currently run at 16-bit precision, because the 32-bit precision would cause even more of a huge performance hit!)

When intense SM 3.0 games come out, we'll be forced to upgrade our 6x00 series cards anyway, unless *maybe* we all have dual 6800U setups like you... and believe me, you're the exception Kinney, not the rule.

But I digress. This is the most common ground we've had in months, I applaud your enlightened attitude not to begrudge any X800 XL buyer. Remember, I'm not saying Nvidia cards are bad or that SLI isn't the strongest kid on the block, I'm just saying that Ati has a very compelling PCI-e line up base on price/performance.

Just like the 5900XT was a very compelling Nvidia card in it's day, despite the FX series failings. Remember, it couldn't perform Dx9 stuff well when the first Dx9 Games were coming out, but as I recall you were a proponent of the 5900XL based on price/performance anyway, regardless of what the developers intended for Dx9 games in the future...

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

It sure is, and in a year or so when it's used it might have a strong bearing on whether or not you buy an X800.

No, it is a strong bearing now. Its a card with 2003 features in 2005.

DX9C has been long released Cleeve. And games use it.

Look at Splinter Cell CT, w/o SM3 you see the game much differently as far as textures (due to displacement mapping) and lighting due to SM3/HDR.

Its the way the developers intended the game to be seen.
I'm sorry but X800s do not deliver the goods, TODAY.

But in a year or so, why wouldn't you be buying the next gen cards?

The 2005 card is the GF6. The 2003 card is the X800s. I buy for today.
Take your pick.

Edited by GAME on 04/13/05 04:59 PM.

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

well, its wellknown that ATI SLI is rushed.
it will more than likely be crap. NV took years to think through their method. I think 3 or 4 years from what I've read.
Of course its going to be better.

or at least, ATI "SLI" will not be as fast and not nearly as efficient (though the former depends on a single R520's prowess more than anything)

pauldh · Apr 14, 2005

I don't think he was refering to <A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22485" target="_new">that article</A>. He was probably refering to <A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22471" target="_new">this earlier article</A>. Probably should have used quotes or a link. :tongue:

I have to say, the quote you gave there paints a very nice picture of AMR. Especially for folks who bought a X800XL and later add a X850XT or higher. I am embarassed to admit I never considered the faster card would/could handle more tiles. Now the advantage of two different cards sinks in to me on the performance front and not just lack of combatibility front. What I mean is, I thought ATI's advantage would be that you don't need two exact cards, so no sweat finding a match later compared to the SLI fiasco. But To find out that the stronger card may render more tiles, wow, IF they can pull that off in the drivers, I'd be impressed. Big if though.

But that other article looks almost like Kinney(Game) wrote it himself.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

Like I said... you were an advocate of the FX5900XT when it's forward looking features were grim, based on price/performance.

The X800 series is no different.

Price/Performance is king, dude. Always is, always was, always will be. Unless you're saying we were *both* wrong to support the 5900XT back in the day...

________________
Geforce 6800 Ultra
AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

ya, and price/performance does NOT mean one writes off seeing games the way the developer intended.

that was a big issue for you when NV was running all kinds of optimizations on the NV30. it was *gasp!* NOT ALLOWING THE END USER TO SEE THE GAME THE WAY THE DEV INTENDED!
/end gasp

lol
If you cant see games the way the dev intended, performance/price means nothing.. well, if your willing to settle for less than what the dev intended then thats fine.

In that case, you just have bad taste. I'd rather see games the way the developer meant for me to see them.
I'm sorry you'd say and do anything to avoid seeing games the way the developer intended.. but I prefer that, thanks.

There sure as hell aint no blowout by ATI this gen anyway, they dont even lead performance.. SLI does hands down. And price performance NV wins as well unless you hand pick the battles as you enjoy doing.

Straight up the ATI lineup vs the NV lineup, its a slaughter.

SM3/DX9C/FP32/SLI with the same DX speed (w/o benching) and blowout in D3 engine speed. They are the better cards by far. Get over it.

X800PRO faster than X800XL

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