X800PRO faster than X800XL

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

Just to clarify, you're saying that *before* when people were saying the 5900XT was bad because it couldn't handle Dx9, you fought hard to support it because it's price/performance ratio was so good...

...and *now* you're saying the entire X800 series is bad because it doesn't handle Dx9c, dismissing it's great price/performance ratio.

I'm glad you admitted you have an Nvidia bias, because I couldn't make sense of your inconsistancies otherwise... :tongue:

But whatever. You say Nvidia is dominating, I say it's a tie. In the end it doesn't matter what you and I think, the customers vote for the winners with their wallets. As long as they both make enough money to push each other to greater technological heights, I'm happy.

________________
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3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

LOL not a tie, thats for sure.

If its a tie. SLI was the tiebreaker.

SLI is undeniable, and a massive breakthrough success. Now, ATI is back to following Nvidia alot like the 8500 days and prior. The natural order of things.

you're saying that *before* when people were saying the 5900XT was bad because it couldn't handle Dx9, you fought hard to support it because it's price/performance ratio was so good...

...and *now* you're saying the entire X800 series is bad because it doesn't handle Dx9c, dismissing it's great price/performance ratio.

Not exactly. The 5900XT could handle DX9, as could the excellent 5700. Those revisions were worthy purchases. It was their predecessors that were not IMO. Though ppl will argue they were because there were not alot of DX9 games out at that time.

I'm not that much of a NV-defender (they ARE corporations with no loyalty to me, why in the hell would I be loyal to them???). I only defend NV because they hands down have the best driver support, best product most times and best driver quality. Simple.

Best of breed. They are indeed 8/10 the best choice.
You dont come out of NOWHERE in the early 90s and smash everyone in the market already into little itty bitty pieces for nothing. They are an exceptional corporation with a great track record overall. Even NV30 wasnt THAT bad, it just wasnt in league with the R300.

But an R300 thesedays like the X800s? Not cutting it slim.
No matter how you slice it. You can slice it from the side, slice from the top, hell you can put it in a bag and put it up your bum if you want.. but its still inferior in nearly every way.
2003 tech, in 2005. Says it all.
And proof of that is, its no longer showing us games the way the developers intended. No better way to prove that they are inferior than that.
They need an update, you and others make excuses for ATI all day to buy time. But the bottom line is: the jig is up on the R300 core period.

But the 5900XT did fine DX9, no it wasnt the fastest on the market, but was not the worst either.
The X800s, CAN'T even do DX9C IQ enhancing features.. thats the difference.

You have a slightly slower product (5900XT) that could do the same DX9 features, but todays x800s just cant do it.. no matter how hard they try. Here comes the rebuttal "BUT BUT BUT, certain games dont even enable DX9 for the NV30 cards!!! NARF NARF NARF!"

Irrelevant. It DOES play DX9 games ACCEPTABLY, its no 5200 64bit.. the 5900XT is not a POS.. sorry sam.

Neither is X800, I never said that. But it IS inferior to the NV40s. As was the 5900XT to the competing ATI solutions at the time.

Why you ATI cronies can't just admit that, and get on with your lives is a exercise in futility.
X800 can't top the NV40s. NV is just too far ahead with their hardware.
NV40 and its surrounding technologies (SM3/DX9C/SLI/Purevideo, which turned out to be a slight disappointment but not totally useless) was the only true innovation to come out of either of the corporations.

Admit it or die a slow, agonizing death at the hands of CS's chinese water torture

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

Not exactly. The 5900XT could handle DX9, as could the excellent 5700. Those revisions were worthy purchases. It was their predecessors that were not IMO. Though ppl will argue they were because there were not alot of DX9 games out at that time.

Have to agree to disagree. 5900 and 5700 can't run a serious Dx9 app like HL2 without backing up into Dx8 territory, still getting lower-than-average framerates - wheras the X800 series works just fine in Far Cry with Dx9b enhancements, and beats the NV solutions in raw framerates to boot...

Admit what? I think everybody here has said time and time again that, all things being equal, SM 3.0 is a tiebreaker. Nvidia solutions are preferable to their X800 counterparts of equal speed.

Although, Ati has a few nifty features of their own; I miss temporal AA and right now I'd trade it for my almost-useless SM 3.0 capability (I dislike the Splinter Cell games, I'm more of an FPS guy) any day of the week. Hopefully that will change in 6 months, I'll assume it will and give the 6x00 architecture the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe in a year X800XL buyers will look back and wish they paid the extra bucks for a 6800GT - like 5900 buyers look back and wish they'd chosen the 9600XT. But remember, the 9600XT was the same price as the 5900XT...

The $100 price difference in the case of the X800XL and 4 extra pipes in the case of the X800, all things are not equal. Not by a long shot. 4 more pipes easily trumps unused SM 3.0 functionality in the 6600GT, and $100 trumps SM 3.0 functionality in the 6800GT. Just like the low price of the 5900XT coupled with it's 256-bit memory bus trumped the 9600XT's superior shaders.

We're not talking some obscure corner of the market, the $200 and $300 price points are the *cornerstone* of aftermarket graphics. You can't dismiss it out of hand like it doesn't exist.

Based on this reasoning I'll still call it a tie right now by my reckoning, but you call it an Nvidia win if it pleases you to do so. No skin off my nose, they make great hardware.

But like I said, the people vote with their wallets, and our bickering is nothing but a fart in the wind. Next year the guy with the best prediction can rub it in the other's face, but for now, bring on the water torture, homeboys - Bring it on.

________________
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pauldh · Apr 14, 2005

But the 5900XT did fine DX9, no it wasnt the fastest on the market, but was not the worst either.
The X800s, CAN'T even do DX9C IQ enhancing features.. thats the difference.

You have a slightly slower product (5900XT) that could do the same DX9 features, but todays x800s just cant do it.. no matter how hard they try. Here comes the rebuttal "BUT BUT BUT, certain games dont even enable DX9 for the NV30 cards!!! NARF NARF NARF!"

Irrelevant. It DOES play DX9 games ACCEPTABLY, its no 5200 64bit.. the 5900XT is not a POS.. sorry sam.

Holy cow, you should just stick to NV40 and ignore your FX5900XT mistakes of the past. It does DX9 well? How well does it do in the biggest hit DX9 game? A game called the best game ever. One fo the most anticipated and top games of all times? <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2281&p=3" target="_new">Quite simple, It flopps.</A> It has 1/3 the performance of a Radeon 9700 pro, roughly 1/2 the performance of a X300. Shoot, X300se and R9550 (ATI's slowest DX9 hardware) blow it away. I am sure anyone who bought the FX5900XT at yours and Cleeve's recomendation, was really happy when HL2 came out, there card defaulted to DX8, and they didn't get to see the game the way the developer meant us to see it. Or they could enjoy the nice water reflections, force DX9, and get that wopping 12 fps. Yeah, that's very acceptable, yet 2 fps less in crappy Doom 3 is a blowout. And even in DX8 mode, it doesn't outperform the competion, yet in PS1.1, the X800 series does outperform the GF6800 series in Splinter Cell, which of course means nothing to you because of the inability to use HDR and see the game the way the Developer meant it to be seen, which is PS3.0, HDR, and 1024x768 no AA and sub 30fps framerates. Whoo-hoo blowout, NV rules, slower SM3 capable hardware is the only way to go. Victory, rant rant rant. Death to ATI. etc. etc. etc.

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GAME · Apr 14, 2005

5900 and 5700 can't run a serious Dx9 app like HL2 without backing up into Dx8 territory, wheras the X800 series works just fine in Far Cry with Dx9b enhancements...

Hl2 is a bit advanced DX9 app. A DX9 app from the 5900XTs day would be more appropriate. But even still, it is playable, just best off in dX8 land. But it can do it, just lower the res.
I'm simply saying, its capable to some degree, the hardware is there. The extra vertex unit on the 5900XT did a good boost for it.

I'd like to see 5900XT benchies actually on HL2, i dont believe I've ever seen any come to think of it. I doubt it would make me puke.
But you know they didnt optimize too much for NV30 considering they just defaulted to DX8 mode. Kinda lame. Doesnt bother me tho. It is indeed capable, might require some additional coding for high res though.

But the 5900XT is at least capable of presenting the game as it was meant to be seen by the developers.
The X800 cannot do it at all, not even at 320x200 resolution. It just doenst have DX9C.

I see that as a bigger downfall.

The end result is: both cards have to negate IQ to deliver acceptable performance.
In the 5900s case, it goes to DX8 mode in many games.
In the X800s case, it just is not capable of DX9C.. maybe because ATI couldnt get it to run fast enough so they left it off(?), maybe because they are lazy and trying to rip off the consumer? I dont know which.

The point missing from this discussion is that with the NV40 core based products from Nvidia, you have NONE of these sacrifices.
You get it all.
No IQ loss, great performance. And if you get the 6800GT or Ultra PCIE (the only way i personally would go, as I did).. toss in another one at any time and have the fastest PC gaming performance money can buy.

You just get it all with NV40. I consider DX9C a necessity, I wouldnt buy a card without it.. its ridiculous ATI didnt implement it on the X800s... since it IS just a meaningless, tacked on feature that results in a checkbox on the product manual... lol you guys try so hard and fail so miserably.

While DX9C is a requirement for a GPU in 2005, with the standard being set by Microsoft and the bar being set by Nvidia.. with no DX9C on ATI, the lack of a SLI opponent really leaves them in the dust.

First round knockout.
Thing is, ATI and its supporters are just now waking up from the shock. Their world was turned upside down as they were trying to peddle another R300 revision. Bad move.

pauldh · Apr 14, 2005

Dang it, not again Cleeve. You had to bring up HL2 before I got around to finishing my post. You suck as always. :tongue:

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cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

I am sure anyone who bought the FX5900XT at yours and Cleeve's recomendation, was really happy when HL2 came out, there card defaulted to DX8, and they didn't get to see the game the way the developer meant us to see it.

(Cleeve hangs his head in shame)

Well, on the bright side, Half-Life2 gave them a good excuse to upgrade...

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

Thing is, ATI and its supporters are just now waking up from the shock. Their world was turned upside down as they were trying to peddle another R300 revision. Bad move.

I don't think their shareholders would agree with you, mate... or the history books, either. The public is happy with their stuff, and they've made more moolah than NV the last quarter I checked.

Hold off R520 until Dx9c apps come in force... put a uberfast enhanced R3xx architecture in it's place for the time being. Save mountains of R&D and concentrate on one architecture instead of two. Put pressure on Nv by shrinking the X800 die to crank out cheap X800's and X800XLs. Make money hand over fist all the while.

I dunno, maybe I'm just a dumb old Canadian, but it seems like a damn good strategic plan to me, eh? What's worse, it seems to have worked...

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

You sound a bit bitter Paul?

LOL

As you rant on about the past NV30 blunders.. know that those days are over my friend. Nvidia has your number.

I've seen how important in the past years that "seeing games the way the developer intended" is very, oh so very important to you guys!
At least, when NV was using all kinds of tricks to get NV30 running up to speed.

But NOW, we have ATI doign BRILINEAR that you cannot disable. What a DISGRACE. THOSE TRICKSTERS
Thats NOT the way the dev intended for sure! And no DX9C? *smack!* Not the way the dev intended paul!

Then toss in another PCIE card on that NF4 (best motherboards for AMD, let me remind you.. and they are Nvidia products.. does that hurt a little or what) and ATIs slight gust of wind beneath their sails is all but gone.

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

I dunno, maybe I'm just a dumb old Canadian, but it seems like a damn good strategic move to me, eh?

you are not dumb. you are just a good trickster like those guys at ATI.. running south of the border to hire of bunch of Americans to reform and take over ATI.. note: this was ArtX from our beautiful California.

Americans running ATI? NO :evil:

But true.

don't think their shareholders would agree with you, mate... or the history books, either. The public is happy with their stuff, and they've made more moolah than NV the last quarter I checked.

LOL changing the subject when defeated.. you trickster you
in recent years ATI has done well.. but I didnt know that was our debate?

its just sad its a bunch of yanks that you guys cant stand that restructured ATI for you and now runs that sh*t.. you do know that their base of operations pretty much shifted from mapleleaf land to cali right?
not too far from the big green giant actually

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

Hey... you're the one who shifted gears with the "first round knockout" comment.

As for the Americans, Ati bought them. They own them now, and all the people in Cali who work for them. MUHAHA!

And, for the record, it's still a tie. If I had $300 to spend on a videocard, I'd pick a X800XL over a 12-pipe 6800 any day of the week. In a year, those pipes will still be cranking out polygons.

Time will tell, you mofo. Time will tell. In the meantime, where's my water torture?

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

wtf are you smoking? orton is from SGI, hes an american.. and hes the CEO.

how the hell did they buy him? they paid him to take the fk over that dump!
he and the rest of the yankees you cant stand fixed that failure into something competitive

nice try tho, this is like you saying how the CANADIANS ran out out and burned our capital building in 1812.. lol not quite.
but if it gives you a sense of national pride.. i think its healthy, you dont want to be like "shat! all canada is good for is hugging trees!!!"
you want to feel some pride, and i support that. my kind of canadian is Xeon. that good old boy is a real canadian

not some tree hugger liberal who needs a reality check.
cut taxes, release corporations from restrictions, and beat up french bastards. tell them to learn the language of the world, english.. or die.
there WAS a battle between cultures at one time for the domination of the western world... England won.
America is based in British law, canada is as far as I know.. time for the french to eat sh*t and die.
we could fight them again.. but I wonder who'd win.. hmm the Americans whose culture is based upon bloodshed and struggle, or the cheese eating moneys.

until you get more politicians like this sexy <A HREF="http://www.conservative.ca/media/ON/Stronach.htm" target="_new">b*tch</A> you'll never be anything.

she'll give you a country you can be proud of. not some p*ssy liberal pandering tree hugger society.
we have those assholes down here too, but President Bush lays it down on them pretty hard.

edit- these notes of her speaking is impressive <A HREF="http://www.belinda.ca/nm-articleshow.asp?story=112" target="_new">link</A>
she believes like I do, in a strong US-Canadian friendship. But the rest of canada would rather just sit around and hate us.

read <A HREF="http://www.belinda.ca/nm-articleshow.asp?story=111" target="_new">this</A>.. no [-peep-], this lady has her head on straight.
u guys really need a cleaning out up there it sounds likeEdited by GAME on 04/14/05 00:39 AM.

pauldh · Apr 14, 2005

Well, It fit in with your talks.

I too admitedly felt the FX5900XT to be a worthy buy at one time, priced just above a 9600XT and outperforming it in most games. :redface:

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pauldh · Apr 14, 2005

No, I wouldn't say bitter. Just deep inside I am trying to treat you like a non fanboy, so the lack of impartial logic throws me for a loop sometimes.

But, your picture of ATI and best buys seems off to me. I see great buys form both companies, depending on the price and wether PCI-e or AGP. I am one of those price/performance people, always looking for the best bang for the buck(whatever amount it is) as it pertains to each build. You sure didn't see me thinking about buying a X800 pro, when a 6800GT was the same price. And then the Ultra came along for the same price; bingo...must have.

But I will agree with you NV does have a solid lineup this generation. It's your time to gloat.

Not the best for every pricerange, but still very good top to bottom of the 6 series. There are still some ATI cards that provide more for the money IMO, but there is nothing wrong with buying any NV 6xxx product. For instance, Someone spending $280+ on a GF6800 would be better off buying a X800XL, but if priced right, the 6800 can still be a very nice deal. You wouldn't admit it if you saw it, but I see that R430 delt a huge blow to the 6600GT, 6800, and 6800GT. But ATI sure needed to do it, as they offered very little from 9800 pro up to X800XT; the X800 pro just wasn't nearly enough to cover $200-$400 pricing points, especially when 6800GT outperformed it.

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Edited by Pauldh on 04/14/05 08:13 AM.

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

orton is from SGI, hes an american.. and hes the CEO.

Yes, and Ati owns him. His ass belongs to my brethren now. Suck it long, and suck it hard. MUHAHA!

Yes, that polititian is a whoore, but I believe she's been sacked. Or at least I hope so. She doesn't speak for the country, that's for sure.

But stop deflecting the argument! The X800 and X800XL are rocking Nvidia's world right now, I bet they're taking it more seriously than you are...

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

$280+ on a GF6800 would be better off buying a X800XL, but if priced right, the 6800 can still be a very nice deal.

I'd agree there.

But thats the only place I'd agree on buying an ATI product. If between a 6800NU, and a X800XL.. if the same price for the X800xl, then I'd get that.

AND, the ONLY reason I say that, is because people have reported problems with 6800NU's in SLI mode (though I dont know if this is true, I think the issue ended up being the particular websites problem). And with no guarantee that it will unlock the additional pipes..

Otherwise, the lineup is a flop.
6800U > X850XT PE
6200 > Whatever crap ATI's peddling on teh low end
And thats on AGP, if the comparison is in PCIE.. its really bad for ATI and even more of a hands down win for the green giant

So there you go, you got an ATI recomendation out of me. But only those absolutely A) not willing to spend the extra $70 or less for the 6800GT or, B) Those who demand ATI, might as well use their X800XL for now

To narrow it down and be precise about it
I'd only go with one ATI product, the X800XL, and only on AGP.
If the X800XL was $70-100 cheaper than a 6800GT I would not have a problem with that. On PCIE, I dont think a measly $70 can negate the fact that the 6800GT has SLI capability, plus DX9C which is on the AGP version too.

Just too much icing on the cake in PCIE land.

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

Yes, and Ati owns him. His ass belongs to my brethren now.

LOL tell yourself whatever makes you feel good about it.
If there are any of your "brethren" running ATI still, they are most likely living in California anyway.

But I consider the CEO to be the guy who runs it, and hes an American so...
fine I'll drop it. If you dont feel national alligiance to ATI then your ATI cheerleading would lose its purpose.

She doesn't speak for the country, that's for sure.

thats cuz besides her, the rest of canadas politicians are idiots. If she spoke for the country, you guys would be something. She ran a corporation and never lost any money at anytime, she could make your economy like ours.. instead of like mediocre europes.
But whatever, if you cant educate your own people on how to make the nation better then I guess theres no hope.
Might as well climb a tree.

I bet they're taking it more seriously than you are...

Of course they are.
They came out the gate this time with SLI, DX9C support.. they knew what they had to do. Total domination. They are a complete generation ahead this time. ATI's stuck with a R300.

It will just take some time for the people to let it sink in how bad ATIs tech really is.

Thank God for that American takeover at ATI or they wouldnt have even had that! :evil:

cleeve · Apr 14, 2005

she could make your economy like ours

Not to turn this into a political debate, but I sure as f#@$ wouldn't want your economy right now, nor do I think your politicians are any better. Politicians are scum no matter which flag you're under.

Yep, Ati's stuck witn an R300, but it's still faster than your Nv40.

P.S. Ati rulez PCI-e

________________
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AthlonXP 3200+ (Barton 2500+ o/c 400 FSB)
3dMark05: 5,275

GAME · Apr 14, 2005

but I sure as f#@$ wouldn't want your economy right now

would you like to compare? we arent doing that bad, thats a perception that doesnt match up to reality
<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29" target="_new">link</A> no one is even close. the anti-american world hopes the EU will turn into something (a nation), but it never ever will.
Too much internal strife.
contrary to your belief, i believe if raising up the economy of canada and mexico to MUCH closer to our level. I'd like to see us peers, instead of the USA being your much bigger brother.

Then we can create our own EU and destroy the future China crisis or the EU.. whatever feels good at the moment.
But if my plan doenst happen, we'll be kicking everyones ass by ourselves. Fine by me! Someones gotta defend democracy and freedom across the globe.
I like Canadians, much more than the rest of the world. We are the hardy pioneers of the new world. Our blood and ancestors are clearly superior to the Europeans or rest of the world. We are just tougher period.
Right now we do you guys enough favors, just us sitting next to you with the worlds most advanced military stops ANYONE from daring attack canada or mexico.
Cuz it'd be on, and we'd own noobz.

Politicians are scum no matter which flag you're under.

wrong, lawyers are the scum. they dont even have a flag. they just fk you in the a$$

Yep, Ati's stuck witn an R300, but it's still faster than your Nv40.

P.S. Ati rulez PCI-e

lol now you are just being silly and trying to lead me on

Edited by GAME on 04/14/05 02:23 PM.

pauldh · Apr 15, 2005

LOL, Wow, do you still like to turn up the heat with every post or what! I'm not even going near that last one, but I am sure others will.

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 15, 2005

Funny how you know so little about the example you use.

(Kinney Talking about Belinda Stronach of MAGNA) ...She ran a corporation and never lost any money at anytime,

She was handed the alredy booming company by her dad, who still controls the company and is a 'payed consultant'. Her position is figure-head. I wouldn't say that she has any abilities outside of running daddy's company.

she could make your economy like ours.. instead of like mediocre europes.

In the leadership campaign and even during the election she had nothing more than sound bites to offer. She has no magic bullet or else she would've won handily, in every interviewed she seemed far out of her league, and as for economics, she doesn't seem to have a clue, just like most 'managers'. And the current PM has far more Business and Economic experience than she does, so nothing would change there. And there's little these guys can do anyways, for any good leader knows that you don't me$$ with Bay/Wall street. So what else do you think she could do that the Liberals haven't so far? Deficits have been eliminated, debt slashed, trade increased, and taxes reduced (not as much as some would like but it's wouldn't have near the influence as any shift in global markets so it's a moot point).

But whatever, if you cant educate your own people on how to make the nation better then I guess theres no hope.

Definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black there.

would you like to compare? we arent doing that bad, thats a perception that doesnt match up to reality
link no one is even close.

LOL! Yes unadjusted GDP will show overall the economy is large, but you're not picking the right figure as the Chinese economy doesn't have the same metrics, looking on that site you chose and see their properly wighted/adjusted figures which will give you a better picture.
An you forget that your current account and trade deficits (unhampered by a lower dollar even) plus federal deficit financing are probably going to kill the goose that layed the golden egg.

You are in the waining years of US dominance, the US will always be a huge economic force, but China is growing in leaps and bounds, and that's largely thanks to you guys. You may even be #1 for a long long time, but there will be so many countries in the same league right behind you that the overall power and influence will be far less. The US becoming a source for others to do business (owned by the Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Euros, Saudis, and yes even Canucks) will probably always keep your figures high, but the actual ownership and flow of capital out of the country will mean the nations actual wealth will be far lower than it's nominal figures.

Of course for someone only wanting to show the US as #1 you may still get your top figure only it won't all belong to you.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 15, 2005

Now back to the Graphics part of all this (obviously losing your grip if you keep having to resort to attacking the country).

My Quote:

ATi's advantages in UT2K4 and FartCry are just as significant as nV's D3 advantage.

**

No its not. There is no advantage across the ATI product line to back this up. The X850XT PE MIGHT put you as correct in this statement.
But the X850XT PE ALONE (versus a 6800U).
And thats without SLI, which is not unfair to include in a comparison jsut because ATI doesnt have it.

From top to bottom of the current ATI product line, which is what my statements are intended for you are way off.
Unless you are comparing the x850xt pe to a single 6800U, which is fine, but not good enough for you to say-

That the X800XL beats the GF6800GT as well as the X800 and even X700PRO beat the GF6600GT at playable for both of those games says they're tops too, not just the X850XTPE, which along with the X800XTPE and the X850XT and X800XT all beat the GF6800U in those games. Geez even the <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/0305/itogi-video-fc1-wxp-aaa-1600.html" target="_new">X800XL beats the GF6800U</A> in FartCry, OIE!

Like Cleeve said, AGP's a different story, but ATi dominate the PCIe range except for at the very bottom (and you were moaning about the very top, jeez!).

FP24 is not full precision, FP32 is. Thats the IEEE standard, not 24.

But we weren't talking about IEE standards, we were talking about HL2, which conforms to M$' standards. And for HL2 and M$ it's full precision, and IEE talks about output, and that's 32bit with ATI anyways since it's only 24bit internal.

the simple fact is that doom3 was built around NV40 (or vice-versa depending on who you talk to), ATI just doesnt deliver the goods where D3 needs it.
X800 is not advanced enough.

Well as has been pointed out already the above is just plain false, second, considering the parity between output and the close speed, sound like they are advanaced enough.

NV coudl do alot better in HL2 than it does.

Then why aren't they? You explain it. I'm certain I know what you think you can use as a defence, but it's not going to equalize the playing field so much as bring back floptimizations.

Doom3 does better on NV because its more advanced stencil shaded shadows.

So advanaced that Carmack may drop them when going to Quake4, so it's not a question of advanced to much as different, just like HL2 and FP24.

No optimizations there, just better hardware.

If you think there's no optimizations then you really don't know how nV and ATi approach D3, both optimize and do shader replacement. As for Id optimizing for nV, like I said, no more so than Valve did for HL2, oth just play to each design's strengths. But I guess reality doesn't help the 'more advanced' argument you're trying to push here.

You have ONE card to debate with, the x850. The rest of the lineup gets murdered (6200 compared to whatever junk ATI has out now for lowend) or ultimately defeated (x800xl compared to 6800gt) in performance.

Like I mentioned, your figures are off. The 6200 does best the X300 in many areas, that's a gimme. But the X800XL does as well and often better than the GF6800GT for less, and if you try and bring the price close to each other with a 128mb GF6800GT, then it get shredded. And the X800 beats the GF6600GT, but that's to be expected considering it's role, just like the GF6200 versus the X300. As for the top, well the X800XT/X800XT/X850XT/X850XTPE beats anything in their surrounding clase in all but the select few titles where the GF6800U does well.

But if you want to get down to the bottom of this, ATI leads nothing when you look into SLI numbers.

Except of course the myriad of situations where SLI doesn't give any additional benifit. And for twice the price for now gain, why bother? You falsely accuse me of only comparing the very extreme end of the scale, yet that's exactly what you do there. So if someone's looking for a good shitty card or wanting to spend as much as possible then nV's your option, for everything else it's ATi then. Or at least that seems to be your defence.

Personally I still stick with the, "pick the best card you can afford that plays the games YOU play best", of course that may be too logical for some. :tongue:

Anywhoo, now off to the Pied Pickle, work's done! 😎

EDIT: Now I'm off, had to wait for co-workers! 😡

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 04/14/05 07:02 PM.

pauldh · Apr 15, 2005

I can't speak for the ATI X series, but the BFG 6800Ultra OC is a 1280x1024 2XAA/8XAF card in Farcry. And that is with a 2.2GHz A64 and 1GB of RAM. The majority of levels play ok at 4XAA/8XAF, but the more demanding ones need AA to be dropped to 2X, with still an occasional small dip under 30fps. From my reading in reviews, the X800XT can handle 4X AA as well as the 6800U does 2X AA. So, I'd believ that in Farcry, the X800XT and above > a single 6800U.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>

pauldh · Apr 15, 2005

Anyone could have done this, but for fun I took the current cheapest pricewatch prices. Use these to compare what you get for the money as opposed to what the intended competion is. Prices is US$

AGP:
X850XTpe $546
X850XT $509
X800XTpe $468
GF6800U $429
X800XT $426
X800pro $357
GF6800GT 256MB $339
GF6800 256MB $321
X800XL 256MB $319
X800se 256MB $311
GF6800GT 128MB $310
GF6800 128MB $235
X700pro 256MB $229
GF6800LE 128MB $205
GF6600GT 128MB $171
R9800 pro 256-bit 128MB $149
GF6600 128MB $135
X850pro - no show
X800 128MB & 256MB - no show
X700 pro 128MB - no show

PCI-e:
2-GF6800U SLI $978
2-GF6800GT 256MB SLI $762
X800XTpe $640
2-GF6800 256MB SLI $590
X850XTpe $587
X800XT $511
GF6800U $489
X850XT $444
X850pro $388
GF6800GT 256MB $381
2-GF6600GT SLI $342
GF6800 256MB $295
X800XL 256MB $289
X800Pro 256MB $272
X800 256MB $254
X800 128MB $199
X700pro 256MB $182
GF6600GT 128MB $171
X700pro 128MB $146
GF6600 128MB $135
X800se - no show
GF6800GT 128MB - no show
GF6800 128MB - no show
GF6800le - no show

Anyway, just thought this would come in handy for comparison sake. SOme can be ruled out immediately as good buys. other price ranges, the decision isn't easy.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>

eden · Apr 15, 2005

Yall don't forget AMR coming soon too. I could quite easily pair another X850XT PE with my current one. Hmm, might be quite a funny sight against the Ultra now wouldn't it? :evil:

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X800PRO faster than X800XL

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