X800PRO faster than X800XL

BigMac · Apr 8, 2005

BTW building and maintaining a high performance system has become my #1 Hobby[/cough addiction]

You need therapy :tongue:

BigMac

<A HREF="http://www.p3int.com/product_center_NWO_The_Story.asp" target="_new">New World Order</A>

BigMac · Apr 8, 2005

still not a good idea to upgrade this gen, this late.

but if you dont play games.... hmmmmmmmm

its your money

(kind of an expensive hobby esp if you dont play games)

[pinches arm]

Is this Kinney, the uber SLI protagonist, talking about wasting money? (not to mention expensive intel cpu's

)

<pre>btw, I've set my first steps on the SLI road as well :tongue: could not resist the upgrade possibilities</pre>

BigMac

<A HREF="http://www.p3int.com/product_center_NWO_The_Story.asp" target="_new">New World Order</A>

GAME · Apr 8, 2005

congrats on the SLI

im not talking about wasting money on SLI, but wasting money on by not going with DX9C hardware so that you can see games the way the developer intended

as well, it seems silly with ATI's real 2005 card coming out soon would be the better choice by far. than their cards with the 2003 feature set.
not a very good idea.
better off waiting or picking up a GF6.

then consider that if you pop in that 2nd 6800.. you have the fastest thing on the block.. and at least you have that option.

no one has a clue if NV50/R520 will be faster than NV40. No one has any idea.. and if someone has benchmarks I'd like to see them.
As far as we know next gen could be as fast as ATI Rage with ATI quality drivers. Wouldnt that be the shits?

Until we indeed do have confirmation, SLI is the best hands down.
And its great to be able to pick up a 6800GT or Ultra for a new rig today.. and maybe you change your mind and want alot more firepower?

Well, if you had gone with an ATI card.. you'd have to replace the cards and STILL not have a rig that compares to an SLI rig!

Its nice that PCIE 6800 users already have the DirectX 9C standard.. and also have the power to toss in another one at will, giving them the fastest setup possible!

Edited by game on 04/08/05 02:53 AM.

mozzartusm · Apr 8, 2005

Yes, I do! 😱

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georgebeee · Apr 9, 2005

you've talked me into it. I think I'm gonna rupture my bank account in the near future to get one of the next gen paper releases!!! I can just see it now!!!

this is gonna be great. prolly only double the MSRP, but hey, I'll get to see it the way the developer intended, and prolly only have to wait several months for the order to be filled when they do finally let me place the order to begin with.

I'm all for it.

Guest · Apr 9, 2005

Is there any cocaine in that bottle still? :evil:

Woohoo!! I am officially an Addict !! 
 One new Firefox fan 
<pre> Always remember to keep testicles away from live wiring </pre>

mozzartusm · Apr 9, 2005

LMFAO :lol:

Intel P4 550(3.4)@4.2 posted 4.8
ASUS P5AD2-E-Prem
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TT 680W PSU

cleeve · Apr 9, 2005

A 2003 feature set in 2005 doesnt make sense.

Once again, you're assuming everyone has an unlimited buget, and that gaming is worthless unless you're running 1600x1200 with 4xaa.

I bought an old 9700 PRO for $120 that lasted me a year, and gave me a fantastic gaming experience in Far Cry, battle for Middle Earth, and Half Life 2. Couldn't have made a better purchase.

If I went by your logic I would have been better off waiting 6 months for the 6600GT to come out so I could get marginally better performance in some games and slower framerates in Half Life 2 - and sit on my hands in the meantime.

Developers *intend* to make games compatible with hardware that's at least a year old on average. How long after the 9700 PRO arrived did HL2 and Doom3 arrive? Today's standards are made for yesterday's hardware, dude.

You're confusing the desire to have bragging rights with the desire to have hardware that can do the job. Not having the fastest framerates on the planet doesn't mean your hardware can't offer a good gaming experience. It's not about benchmarking, it's about gaming.

Unless you're in the 1% of folks to whom money is no object, or all you're after is bungholiomarks, the *best* time to buy is between gens.

________________
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GAME · Apr 11, 2005

Once again, you're assuming everyone has an unlimited buget, and that

*confuzed*
Unlimited budget? Its DX9C hardware we're talking about here, not SLI.

The whole Nvidia lineup from top to bottom is exceptional, and DX9C compliant.

f I went by your logic I would have been better off waiting 6 months for the 6600GT to come out s

I never said that. You buy for TODAY. If you felt a 9700 Pro was good enough for you, great.
I'm just saying a 2003 featureset in 2005 is unacceptable when the competition is as fast, or faster.

Developers *intend* to make games compatible with hardware that's at least a year old on average. How long after the 9700 PRO arrived did HL2 and Doom3 arrive? Today's standards are made for yesterday's hardware, dude.

No, todays standards are for TODAYS hardware.. whats MS's latest standard? DX9C. Whats NV's hardware? DX9C. Whats ATI's? DX9B.
Simple choice for todays standards.

It's not about benchmarking, it's about gaming.

Right!
And DX9C lets you see games the way the developer intended. DX9B hardware will never see Splinter Cell Chaos Theory the way the developer intended. Theres no way around that.

And there is a visual difference, the displacement mapping is very apparant.

cleeve · Apr 11, 2005

Unlimited budget? Its DX9C hardware we're talking about here, not SLI.

The whole Nvidia lineup from top to bottom is exceptional, and DX9C compliant.

LOL, do you even remember the point you were trying to make? Remember, you were telling everyone that now is a bad time to upgrade because next gen is coming.

Oh, wait. Now you've changed your story, existing Dx9c geforces are suddenly good enough, so Nvidia cards are OK to buy becuase Dx9c is so far superior to Dx9b. We don't have to wait for next gen anymore.

I never said that. You buy for TODAY.

No, what you said was "still not a good idea to upgrade this gen, this late.", suggesting that people shouldn't upgrade until new unnanounced cards arrive.(?) Keep track of your own nonsensical rationalizations, dude.

And DX9C lets you see games the way the developer intended. DX9B hardware will never see Splinter Cell Chaos Theory the way the developer intended. Theres no way around that.

Wow, I guess everyone who upgraded specifically for Splinter Cell Chaos theory will be mighty dissapointed if they bought an Ati, even if their Ati cards provide a good gaming experience!

What about the rest of people who play Far Cry, Half Life 2, Unreal tournament, etc. I guess buying a card for superior framerates in games that actually exist is a bad idea for them. (?)

The really funny part is, you are so obsessed with hating Ati that you turned a simple discussion about buying between gens into another anti Ati rant that follows no train of thought from point A to point B.

On one hand you're saying this is a stupid time to upgrade, then you change your argument to Nvidia cards are great to buy now, between gens! Ati-hating Nvidia-loving propeganda when no-one was talking about Ati vs Nvidia. Nice.

The fact is that until the day the X800XL showed up, you were perfectly fine with people upgrading to a 6800GT between gens. Then the X800XL arrives as a better bet in PCI-e, and you immediatly decide that this is a bad time to upgrade because new, unnanounced hardware is on the horizon.

Then when you realize how dumb that argument is, you change your rationalization to Dx9c vs. Dx9b. Laughable.

If you're going to fanboy it up, at least stick to the same story in the same thread. You aren't making yourself look too good.

________________
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GAME · Apr 11, 2005

You aren't making yourself look too good.

Actually, you are the one who doesnt look good or make sense. Let me explain.
You are straight up lying in your response, or being totally manipulative of what I've said in the past. Or very possibly, very foolish.

LOL, do you even remember the point you were trying to make? Remember, you were telling everyone that now is a bad time to upgrade because next gen is coming.

Oh, wait. Now you've changed your story, existing Dx9c geforces are suddenly good enough, so Nvidia cards are OK to buy becuase Dx9c is so far superior to Dx9b. We don't have to wait for next gen anymore.

I said "now is a bad time to upgrade to ATI hardware".
Soon, ATI will catch up to MS's DX standard. Then buy, if you insist on ATI that is.

Otherwise, if you buy now Nvidia does comply to the standard.

To keep it simple for you: now is a bad time to buy ATI's current lineup, with their DX9C/"SLI" parts right around the corner.

If you buy today, you get DX9C hardware and SLI capability out of GF6. Its simple, even for you.

No, what you said was "still not a good idea to upgrade this gen, this late.", suggesting that people shouldn't upgrade until new unnanounced cards arrive.(?) Keep track of your own nonsensical rationalizations, dude.

See above.
You dont read very well do you.

Wow, I guess everyone who upgraded specifically for Splinter Cell Chaos theory will be mighty dissapointed if they bought an Ati, even if their Ati cards provide a good gaming experience!

Of course its good smartguy.
But it aint up to the latest released MS standard. Why waste your time buying it when you'll need an upgrade sooner than the GF6 guy to see games the way developers intended?
If one wants to, more power to him. It just logically doesnt pan out.

What about the rest of people who play Far Cry, Half Life 2, Unreal tournament, etc. I guess buying a card for superior framerates in games that actually exist is a bad idea for them. (?)

I dont know, I have DX9C AND superior framerates to anything ATI can dish out. Even non-SLI GF6 cards pretty much match comparative ATI cards in DX, and stomp them in OGL/Doom3 engine (most advanced rendering engine on the market mind you). Easy choice.
Whats your point?

<snip rant>

The fact is that until the day the X800XL showed up, you were perfectly fine with people upgrading to a 6800GT between gens. Then the X800XL arrives as a better bet in PCI-e, and you immediatly decide that this is a bad time to upgrade because new, unnanounced hardware is on the horizon.

Then when you realize how dumb that argument is, you change your rationalization to Dx9c vs. Dx9b. Laughable.

<snip personal insult>
<snip Cleeves tiny ballsack off>

Its disappointing ATI's refresh (X800XL) didnt include DX9C or any form of SLI.
It just still doesnt stack up, its a great card for those willing to sacrifice DX9C and SLI.. (which is exactly why X800XL is a day-late, dollar-short to the party, then we hear all this great hype about R520 with WGF1/DX9C and somehow pretend DX9C and seeing games the way the developer intended doesn't matter??)

The point is, if you arent one of those people that upgrades every gen, and most are.. buying this ATI's really-fast 9700 Pro this late is not wise.
As soon, both ATI/NV will be up to 2005 standards.

So I would wait for their real 2005 card. Not the rehashed R300.

Buying a card with a 2003 feature set in 2005 is not the best investment for even short term. Most people would prefer to see games the way the developer intended.

On R520, dont get your hopes up. People are expecting ATI to launch R520 and expect it to do this: trump NV in DX9C performance (might be tough being their first retail silicon with DX9C.. and NV is on their 2nd time out with DX9C), they must deliver SLI that nears 100% performance increase in real-world gaming like NV's implementation, and they must deliver drivers for this new core that are up to at least the exceptional standard the new NV40 core had for drivers (not the original 9700 Pro standard :tongue: ).

Its going to execute all those things perfectly as well, or better than NV has.
NV's got a healthy lead on technology and I for one dont have total faith ATI can produce new drivers for a new core unless its a rehash of the R300.
See HDTV Blunder.

cleeve · Apr 11, 2005

See above.
You dont read very well do you.

LoL. And you don't remember very well, do you:

Kinney, Page 2:

who gives a damn.. shouldve waited for next gen and got something that really is an improvement

Page 4:

still not a good idea to upgrade this gen, this late.

Careful, buddy. It sounds like you're starting to forget your own BS.

Don't get my hopes up for R520? Why, because it's Ati? Dude, I have hopes for any hardware that raises the technology bar, it can come from XGI for all I care. I wonder why the idea of a better videocard from Ati scares you so much that you have to diss it before it's even here?

For someone who'se not an Nvidia fanboy, you sure do have some hardcore brand preferences!... I don't know why you think the term doesn't apply to yourself, I think you're confused. Maybe you don't understand what the word "fanboy" implies.

That's OK though. It's pretty clear to anybody who reads your corporate trash talk and conflicting rationalizations. :tongue:

________________
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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 12, 2005

Bad time to upgrade cuz...... XGI's got new gear on the Horizon!

WooHoo! XG-50! (DX9.0c and 90nm! 😎 )

Kickin-A$$ and trying to decipher what names are on our screnes so we can take 'em! :lol:

Be prepared for another wave of AwesomeGra! :evil:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

GAME · Apr 12, 2005

Careful, buddy. It sounds like you're starting to forget your own BS.

oh stfu

in that quote, i was referring to a x800 pro to a x800xl

"who gives a damn.. shouldve waited for next gen and got something that really is an improvement"
"still not a good idea to upgrade this gen, this late."

THIS GEN, THIS LATE
ie. this gen of ATI, and this late in the R300s lifecycle. if you must have a video card now, the easy choice is not the outdated 800xl. too little, too late.

pull your head out of your a$$ and quit pretending i said something i didnt

Edited by GAME on 04/11/05 10:05 PM.

Rugger · Apr 12, 2005

If you don't want people to mistake your intent, then be sure what you're typing is what you mean. I took that statement the same way Cleeve did and I'm sure that I'm not the only other person that did.

__________________________________________________
You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!

GAME · Apr 12, 2005

if you read the whole thread, and all my posts in the thread it appears obvious to me

its about getting a x800xl.. and he mentions the x800pro being almost as fast... (at that point in the thread i was under the impression that he upgraded from a pro to XL.. hence my henious reaction)

cleeve · Apr 12, 2005

LoL. Whatever, Kinney. Well I'm sorry if I misunderstood but you've certainly made it quite clear you think the X800 XL is a bad buy at this stage in the game. Or are you saying it's a good buy now?

Let's face it, you're the biggest Nvidiot out there, constantly throwing anti-Ati propeganda around every chance you get. You'd garner more respect you more if you called a spade a spade and came to the table admitting you have a massive brand preference. At least then your comments could be taken in context.

Impartial people don't take every opportunity to diss a company. You don't see us doing it, that's why you're so transparent here.

As it stands, your claim of impartiality is the forum joke.

________________
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mozzartusm · Apr 12, 2005

Actually I said that the X800 Pro is the fastest. My point was that the X800PRO was around for a while before the X800XL was available and the X800PRO is kicking the XL's butt in benchmarks. So I was somewhat hacked off at the fact that the PRO had a core that could be clocked higher than the XL.

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GAME · Apr 12, 2005

yes my memory is off.. i've been busy with this stupid front port audio problem

you are right

GAME · Apr 12, 2005

Ya ya your blabbing on about me being some kind of NV fanboy gets rather old

i prefer to look at it like this: Nvidia is superior now, in just about every way. So if that makes me a fanboy of a superior product, so be it.

There is no incentive to buy a X800, besides MAYBE price. And its a small price ($70 difference, totally debatable).

Its just too late in this gen to be buying ATI's rushed out the door fix to fill the gaps where NV just smashed their product line.

It has no SLI capability, and no DX9C... AND its much newer than the entire GF6 lineup! Sad.

Nv didnt have to refresh anything, they know how well they stand technically.

But I'm not impartial, I'm best of breed.
Right now, there is a reason to CONSIDER the X800xl (I would) but i feel in the end, its too little too late.

If upgrading now, do yourself a favor, get SM3/DX9C support.. get a SLI capable card. Dont buy a 2003 card in 2005 like the X800s.

Besides, you wont possibly be able to run todays games the way the developers intended with them.

I'm not saying if you have a x800pro now, to drop it and buy a 6200. I'm saying if you are UPGRADING, then the NV merits are undeniable.

For instance, I see no place for the X850XT PE in the market.
You wont tell the difference from the 6800 Ultra (w/o benching) in most cases in DX. And in OGL, the Ultra hands the 850 its a$$.

I'd rather be ready for todays DX9C games, have great DX speed completely comparable to ATI's, and have blowout speed for OGL/D3 engine.. its been said by id software that Quake4 will be ready for Quakecon this summer.

People who ignore all this, and NV's huge advantage in stenciled shadows are just plain ATI fanboys. No way around it, or ignorant.

The doom3 engine is HUGE, its the most technically advanced rendering engine.... And its not important to perform in it because Doom3 as a game was simply Old Skool and not what people expect these days?
Dumb.

It is s simple Doom shooter. But the engine has no released equal.

I would think performing in this engine would be huge, because I'm sure multitudes of blockbuster titles will be using it.

Theres no doubt at all. This is id software's engine, not joe blows. Blockbuster titles always use Id's engines because they have no equal.

But whatever, buy your X800XLs and enjoy. But when that killer OGL/D3-engine powered game comes out, and as you watch more and more games being released to the DX9C standard.. it might come back to bite ya in the a$$.

Unless, of course.. you'd never be caught dead using Nvidia anyway!!!! bar har har! :tongue:

cleeve · Apr 12, 2005

Blah Blah fanboy rant, Ati Bad, Nvidia great. Repeat.

Well, I applaud you at least for admitting your bias. But your reasoning is retarded and one dimensional.

It's like saying "The fastest and most advanced american production car is the Chevrolet Corvette. Therefore, the Ford mustang is a crappy sports car, and all Ford products suck, too".

The Mustang is a great car for the price, regardless of whether or not the Corvette could beat it. Just like the X800 XL is a great card even though an SLI setup could beat it.

I don't have to put down Ford because I like the Corvette, just like I don't have to put down Ati because SLI is king.

P.S. The HL2 engine is better than the D3 engine. :tongue:
________________
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pauldh · Apr 13, 2005

For instance, I see no place for the X850XT PE in the market.
You wont tell the difference from the 6800 Ultra (w/o benching) in most cases in DX. And in OGL, the Ultra hands the 850 its a$$.

Comeon, if that isn't a biased opinion, what is. The X850XTpe allows for higher playable resolution/eye candy levels in almost every game compared to the 6800U. Besides Doom3 and Riddick, it's the single best performing card period. It would take hundreds of dollars more to buy 2 6800GT's in SLI, which is finally beating it out in most(not all) games now for sure. SLI would still have more buggies though.

Anyway, even in Doom 3, the X850XTpe is above a 6800GT and only a little below the 6800U. But yes, the 6800 series does own Doom3 and quite possible all games based on that engine.

But the fact is that if you can overlook the 6800U losing almost every other game, why do you feel that <A HREF="http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x850xt_agp/page9.asp" target="_new">the X850XTpe gets demolished in Doom 3</A>? This makes no sense. You can't have it both ways if you are being honest or impartial. NV wins OGL, ATI wins DX, but neither are slouches in either.

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GAME · Apr 13, 2005

yet the margin is MUCH closer in DX. and much larger in OGL

look at the 6600GT in Doom3, or the 6800GT

maybe im referring more to the x800xt and the x800pro, but the x850 is still not enough to not get a 6800ultra on the highend for my taste

esp when you consider its too little, too late this gen.
no sli, no dx9c. just not enough to make it a wiser purcahse than the 6800s

GAME · Apr 13, 2005

No, but if you could put had a mustang now, and could put your second mustang together with the first and blow away the vette.. you'd have alot more appealing product

=sli.

i never said their entire product lineup sucked

the x800xl should be considered
i wouldnt fault a guy for choosing one. but i would the rest of the ati lineup vs Nvidia

6200, 6600s, 6800s pretty much a damn solid lineup hands down
its really nice to see this kind of lineup from NV

it reminds me of ATIs lineup in the 9100 (<- an EXCEPTIONAL PCI card)/9500/9700 and 9200 (<-blah on that one actually)/9600/9800 days.

Solid lineup from top to bottom. I like to see that from anyone. Its just NV has that complete dominance now, and not ATI anylonger.

Just admit it.

pauldh · Apr 13, 2005

yet the margin is MUCH closer in DX. and much larger in OGL

Well, I just couldn't sleep on this one.

It seems close or even the opposite to me. Besides Firingsquad, <A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Njk3LDk=" target="_new">look at [H]'s X850XTpe review</A>. You'll see higher playable settings for the X850XTpe in all games but Doom 3 (lower) and HL2 (same).

In D3, the 6800U manages 1600x1200 2XAA/8XAF, while the X850XTpe manages 1600x1200 0XAA/8XAF. Yet, if you look at the Apples to apples, at the 1600x1200 2X/8X setting that was playable on the 6800U, the X850XTpe is only 2 fps lower in the low and average framterates.

Now do the same for farcry. Farcry is the exact opposite settings, where the X850XTpe is the one allowing 2XAA. Yet, then look at apples to apples and see how the 6800U handles that 1600x1200 2XAA/8XAF setting, and the 6800U drops a low of 8fps lower than the X850XTpe, and an average of 11 fps lower. To me, the X850XTpe seems to outshine the 6800U more in farcry, than the 6800U outshines it in D3. I don't know what would happen with Ultra settings in D3. And yes, unlike the X850XTpe, the X800 pro seems to dog in D3, especially compared to it's original rival, the 6800GT. In that Firingsquad review, high res, it's framerates dropped considerably.

Unfortuneately for me, the ATI's seem to shine in the games I play. There is no question in my mind a X800XTpe would have been a better card for me so far, yet as I have said, the 6800U was the best performance for the price at the time. The X800XTpe would not have been worth $100+ more, so I am happy with the decision/purchase.

I bought Riddick, but have not installed it yet. And Doom 3, is totally not a game for me. I hope that the engine is used half as much as you suggest, because I'd like to have some great performance down the road with this 6800U.

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X800PRO faster than X800XL

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