YANI - Date Effects

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rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably still
>worshipped. Maybe the Chinese gods, as well, outside China itself,
>perhaps even inside.)

Various other pantheons, most notably the Aesir, have been to some
greater or lesser extent adopted by various flavours of neopagan, not
all of whom are tiresome fluffy-bunny types.
--
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My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
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Martin Read wrote:
> Richard Bos wrote:
>
> >Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably
still
> >worshipped. Maybe the Chinese gods, as well, outside China itself,
> >perhaps even inside.)

I fairly regularly encounter folks who are only aware
of JCI family religions (and often not even many members
of that family). There are a lot more religions out there.

> Various other pantheons, most notably the Aesir, have been to some
> greater or lesser extent adopted by various flavours of neopagan, not
> all of whom are tiresome fluffy-bunny types.

In addition to Asatru following the Aesir there's Nova Roma
following the Roman pantheon, ADF following the Druidic
pantheon, bunches of aboriginal American traditions, Shinto,
Hindu and so on.

As to Chinese, when I read the Annalects of Confucious in
translation, I noticed that one of his issues were people
weren't properly doing offerings to the panethon of dieties
known in China at the time. Confucious was sort of a
heathen reformer like Buddha was sort of a Hindu reformer.

 

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quoting Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl>:
>Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably still
>worshipped.

Shinto is still a going concern, yes.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Leicesterday, March.

 

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Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> >Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably still
> >worshipped. Maybe the Chinese gods, as well, outside China itself,
> >perhaps even inside.)
>
> Various other pantheons, most notably the Aesir, have been to some
> greater or lesser extent adopted by various flavours of neopagan, not
> all of whom are tiresome fluffy-bunny types.

Well, yeah, but... let me try to be polite by expressing it this way: I
do not see _their_ Wodan as the same god as my great-to-the-hundreth-
grandfather's Wodan.

Richard

 

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David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> quoting Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl>:
> >Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably still
> >worshipped.
>
> Shinto is still a going concern, yes.

I was aware of that much (for example, and this may not mean much to
people outside The Netherlands and Japan, but I once spotted Hiroyasu
Shimizu bow to the track before he stepped on it to race), but it wasn't
clear to me whether modern Shinto involves gods named Raijin and
Susanowo, or is a more general worship of the Kami in general. Hence the
hedging.

Richard

 

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Richard Bos wrote:
> David Damerell wrote:
> > Richard Bos wrote:
>
> > >Exactly. (And yes, I realise that the Japanese gods are probably
still
> > >worshipped.
>
> > Shinto is still a going concern, yes.
>
> I was aware of that much (for example, and this may not mean much to
> people outside The Netherlands and Japan, but I once spotted Hiroyasu
> Shimizu bow to the track before he stepped on it to race), but it
wasn't
> clear to me whether modern Shinto involves gods named Raijin and
> Susanowo, or is a more general worship of the Kami in general. Hence
the
> hedging.

Think of it in terms of an enlistment in the military.
I will use the US military as an example but I suspect
most enlistments involve a similar principle.

The enlistment oath involves loyalty to ideas - nation,
form of law, chain of command. It is independent of who
is in charge as long as the folks in charge are also
loyal to the same ideas. There is an agreement to obey
the lawful orders of the officers in the chain of command.

So Shinto in general would be loyalty to a set of prinicples
laid out of their legends. Raijin and Susanowo would be
perhaps Colonels or Generals in that chain of command.
Some soldiers chose personal loyalty to a general over the
loyalty to the ideas, but that isn't the natural way
soldiers are supposed to be. And still soldiers will
obey the commands of those generals as long as the commands
remain within wide bounds.

Loyalty to a group does not exclude loyalty to one within
that group nor does it excluse paying little heed to that
one and focusing on the group. THis is not an idea taught
to monotheists so it takes examples outside of religion to
get the idea across.

 

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Richard Bos wrote:
> Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Various other pantheons, most notably the Aesir, have been to some
>>greater or lesser extent adopted by various flavours of neopagan, not
>>all of whom are tiresome fluffy-bunny types.

> Well, yeah, but... let me try to be polite by expressing it this way: I
> do not see _their_ Wodan as the same god as my great-to-the-hundreth-
> grandfather's Wodan.

And what about my dead 100th char's god? He was called according to the
modern English spelling, but still...

1KB

 

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Quoting Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl>:
>Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Various other pantheons, most notably the Aesir, have been to some
>>greater or lesser extent adopted by various flavours of neopagan, not
>>all of whom are tiresome fluffy-bunny types.
>Well, yeah, but... let me try to be polite by expressing it this way: I
>do not see _their_ Wodan as the same god as my great-to-the-hundreth-
>grandfather's Wodan.

Indeed, of course not - but then, we don't know which one NetHack's
Valkyries worship. The way that monks are kung-fu movie monks and samurai
are modern romanticised samurai suggests that it might be the modern
psuedopagan version.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Brieday, March.

 

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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
snip
>>>- on December 25th, a human with a red cloak, [...]
>
>
>>Or on 24th like here in Finland. And not through the chimney!

snip

> Cultural difference like the ones above are exactly why additions like
> this are very unlikely to be implemented by the Dev Team...
>
> I'm positive they've been considered by them before, and I'm also
> *almost* certain that they have, in general, rejected such ideas.

How about implementing them on a per-locale basis? That way each
culture could have their own holidays.

John

 

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John Gibson wrote:

> How about implementing them on a per-locale basis? That way each
> culture could have their own holidays.

Locale != culture. There are hundreds of identifiable cultures in the
United States alone.

Raisse, killed by a newt, while helpless

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.

 

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David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> I notice that, last year, the wall provided by Halloween and Guy Fawkes
> was breached in places to let Christmas into October. Bleah.

Not an entirely new observation:

http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/ffn/ffn080.htm
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Raisse the Thaumaturge <raisse@valdyas.org> wrote:

> John Gibson wrote:
>
> > How about implementing them on a per-locale basis? That way each
> > culture could have their own holidays.
>
> Locale != culture. There are hundreds of identifiable cultures in the
> United States alone.

....most of them in bacteriologists' fridges 😛

Richard

 

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In article <423b071e.11681546@news.individual.net>,
Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>Raisse the Thaumaturge <raisse@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
>> John Gibson wrote:
>>
>> > How about implementing them on a per-locale basis? That way each
>> > culture could have their own holidays.
>>
>> Locale != culture. There are hundreds of identifiable cultures in the
>> United States alone.
>
>...most of them in bacteriologists' fridges 😛

I can think of three on my kitchen counter (munich lager yeast, irish
ale yeast, and one that I've forgotten [probably english ale] but that's
gone bad) {gosh, I hope there's not another one in mynew cheese on the
counter!}, five or six in the upstairs refridgerator (frozen chunks of
mesophilic and thermophilic chese culture, a couple of jars of liquid
mesophilic that didn't set right, and two or three irish ale yeast) [oh,
and the guinness culture in the freezer door, 10 years old]), and a
couple more in the beer refridgerator in the basement . . .

hawk, quite a cultured guy
--
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In article <d0mmrv$80f$1@news2.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>,
Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>Manuel wrote:
>
>> What brings yet another -new or not- idea: Are priests and priestesses
>> allowed to meet incubi/succubi? Should they be disallowed to do it (or
>> penalized for doing it)? Perhaps depending on alignment?
>
>Certainly not a new idea. Rejected in the past for the simple reason
>that almost no religion imposes celebacy on its priests or priestesses.
>Even catholicism allowed it until about 1200, if I recall correctly.

Celibacy first spread from the monasteries, where it was always
required. It had become the norm, though not required, aparently by
about the fourth century in the western church. At some points and in
some regions, celibacy was required, and at others married clergy were
required to live separatly from their wives, or to refrain from conjugal
behavior. The final ban came at the First Lateran Council in 1123,
declaring marriage of higher clergy (priests, deacons, bishops)
invaalid.

But that's just the Roman Catholic Church. Most of the other Catholic
Churches ordain married men, but don't allow post-ordination marriage.
In the United States and Candada, these churches stopped ordaining
married men on a temporary basis after a Papal request (which originated
from the distress of bigotted irish catholic bishops in New York and
Chicago)--but it was a request, not an order [which he probably lacks
the authority to issue]. However, for about twenty years, some eastern
Catholic biships have been training married men and sending them abroad
to the mother church to be ordained, whereupon they are lent back
permanently. A couple have ordained married men outright, and the
Byzantine Catholics have at least two in their seminary at the moment.

If the Roman Catholic church ordained married men, I would be a priest.
If I'd found out about the eastern Catholic churches sooner (younger
children), I'd probably have been ordained.

hawk
--
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In article <423380a2.17570140@news.individual.net>,
Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>wcristalle@hotmail.com (Artemis the Ranger) wrote:

>> On Easter, all new eggs generated that day should be either chocolate
>> eggs ("This chocolate egg is delicious!") or brightly-painted
>> hard-boiled eggs. There should also be a new monster, the rabbit (r)
>
>Hare, please. The main problem here is: how do you (easily) compute the
>day of Easter? There is a formula, but it's too complicated to bother
>with for such small gain.

You would need, of course, to first choose between eastern and western
calendars. Then it's easy:

slytherin ttyp4:hawk>ncal -e
March 27 2005
slytherin ttyp4:hawk>ncal -o
May 1 2005



hawk
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In article <42337f0a.17161765@news.individual.net>,
Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>john_p_darcy@yahoo.com.au (JPD) wrote:

>> - on January 1st, upon starting or restoring a game the player gets
>> "You feel like someone is helping you" and one random cursed item
>> carried in the main inventory is thereby uncursed.
>
>Whatever for? Since when is New Year's Day considered lucky or blessed?

I had alwasy assumed that "New Year's Resolutions" were near universal .
.. .

hawk
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hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:

> In article <42337f0a.17161765@news.individual.net>,
> Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
> >john_p_darcy@yahoo.com.au (JPD) wrote:
>
> >> - on January 1st, upon starting or restoring a game the player gets
> >> "You feel like someone is helping you" and one random cursed item
> >> carried in the main inventory is thereby uncursed.
> >
> >Whatever for? Since when is New Year's Day considered lucky or blessed?
>
> I had alwasy assumed that "New Year's Resolutions" were near universal .

They are, AFAIK, at least in the Western world, but I've never seen them
as lucky. If fact, given how much grief they cause some people, and how
little of them are actually kept for any length of time, they seem to be
unlucky.

Richard

 

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In article <4240aa76.4791859@news.individual.net>,
Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>

>> >> "You feel like someone is helping you" and one random cursed item
>> >> carried in the main inventory is thereby uncursed.
>> >
>> >Whatever for? Since when is New Year's Day considered lucky or blessed?
>>
>> I had alwasy assumed that "New Year's Resolutions" were near universal .
>
>They are, AFAIK, at least in the Western world, but I've never seen them
>as lucky. If fact, given how much grief they cause some people, and how
>little of them are actually kept for any length of time, they seem to be
>unlucky.

The extra luck, therefore, is game balance

hawk
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rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos) wrote in news:423380a2.17570140
@news.individual.net:

>> On Easter, all new eggs generated that day should be either chocolate
>> eggs ("This chocolate egg is delicious!") or brightly-painted
>> hard-boiled eggs. There should also be a new monster, the rabbit (r)
>
> Hare, please. The main problem here is: how do you (easily) compute the
> day of Easter? There is a formula, but it's too complicated to bother
> with for such small gain.

Why would it be complicated? The game already figures out the phase of
the moon. The vernal equinox has a well defined date, and it is pretty
easy to figure out what day of the week a day falls on.

 

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Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote:

> If the Roman Catholic church ordained married men, I would be a
> priest. If I'd found out about the eastern Catholic churches sooner
> (younger children), I'd probably have been ordained.

I am almost certain that the Roman catholic church accepts converted
protestant clergy into its ranks, even if they are married.

So get married, become a vicar, then convert to catholicism. You will be
allowed to stay married, since when the church has to choose between
ordaining a convert and divorce, it chooses the first.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

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"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> was moved to say:

>Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote:
>
>> If the Roman Catholic church ordained married men, I would be a
>> priest. If I'd found out about the eastern Catholic churches sooner
>> (younger children), I'd probably have been ordained.
>
>I am almost certain that the Roman catholic church accepts converted
>protestant clergy into its ranks, even if they are married.

Be certain. You are correct.

--

JPD


SGFN

 

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Seraphim <gme6@cornell.edu> was moved to say:

>> Hare, please. The main problem here is: how do you (easily) compute the
>> day of Easter?
>
>Why would it be complicated? The game already figures out the phase of
>the moon. The vernal equinox has a well defined date,

The possibility would remain of an error of up to 28 days, because
AFAIK the game does not calculate the precise date and time of the
full moon. If the full moon occurs at one minute past midnight on
March 22 (at the longitude of either Jerusalem or Alexandria, can't
remember which), then Easter Sunday will be the Sudnay next
thereafter. However, if the full moon occurs at one minute *before*
midnight on March 21, then Easter Sunday will be 5 Sundays thereafter.

Most years, nothing like this precision is required. One year, it
will be - 2008, perhaps.


--

JPD


SGFN

 

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john_p_darcy@yahoo.com.au (JPD) writes:
> Seraphim <gme6@cornell.edu> was moved to say:
>
> >> Hare, please. The main problem here is: how do you (easily) compute the
> >> day of Easter?

The subject of a superb piece of obfuscated dc:

#!/bin/sh
#
# eas.sh - find the date of Easter for a given year.
#
# Usage: eas.sh <year>

echo $* '[ddsf[lfp[too early
]Pq]s@1583>@ddd19%1+sg100/1+d3*4/12-sx8*5+25/5-sz5*4/lx-10-sdlg11*20+lz
+lx-30%d[30+]s@0>@d[[1+]s@lg11<@]s@25=@d[1+]s@24=@se44le-d[30+]s@21>@dld
+7%-7+[March ]smd[31-[April ]sm]s@31<@psnlmPpsn1z>p]splpx' | dc | sed 'N
y/\n/ /'

> >Why would it be complicated? The game already figures out the phase of
> >the moon. The vernal equinox has a well defined date,
>
> The possibility would remain of an error of up to 28 days, because
> AFAIK the game does not calculate the precise date and time of the
> full moon. If the full moon occurs at one minute past midnight on
> March 22 (at the longitude of either Jerusalem or Alexandria, can't
> remember which), then Easter Sunday will be the Sudnay next
> thereafter. However, if the full moon occurs at one minute *before*
> midnight on March 21, then Easter Sunday will be 5 Sundays thereafter.

The rules for Easter (in both the Western and Eastern churches, though
they differ somewhat on the implementation) use a computed moon, _not_
the real one. As, indeed, (naturally) does NetHack, which uses the
same moon presumably because algorithms for it are easily available;
you'll see references to the golden number and to the epact in
phase_of_the_moon() (though not the dominical letter, since NetHack
currently doesn't have to worry about weekdays in its lunar
calculations). Adding a rule for Easter would be trivial; making it
acceptable to both West and East, less so.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Nothing matters very much, and few things matter at all." :
: -- A.J. Balfour :

 

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In article <d1qcni$na7$1@news3.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>,
Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote:
>
>> If the Roman Catholic church ordained married men, I would be a
>> priest. If I'd found out about the eastern Catholic churches sooner
>> (younger children), I'd probably have been ordained.
>
>I am almost certain that the Roman catholic church accepts converted
>protestant clergy into its ranks, even if they are married.

Lutherans and Episcopalians are generally able to be ordained. I
believe Orothodox are even easier, though I've never heard of it
happening. I've heard of a few Methodists, though I think that takes
longer or more training.

Oh, and then there were the Episcipol parishes that seceded over the
ordination of women in the U.S. There are five anglican-catholic
parishes, whose serice is primarily from the Book of Common Prayer, but
with the Roman Canon for the consecration . . . one is back home in Las
Vegas.

>So get married, become a vicar, then convert to catholicism. You will be
>allowed to stay married, since when the church has to choose between
>ordaining a convert and divorce, it chooses the first.

The divorce would generally be a bar to ordination anyway . . . for that
matter, if a deacon or married priest divorces, he isn't allowed to
continue as active clergy.

But aside from the moral issues (lying, false conversion, etc. , that
path would actually be longer than the Byzantine path, and doesn't sovle
any of the problems with the ages of my children. (But then, the only
times I've been to the Roman Catholic Mass rather than the Byzantine
Catholic Divine Liturgy since I found them have been the weeks [most of
them ] that I've gone with family [sick children happen a lot in
winter]).

hawk

hawk
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David Tillotson wrote:

> Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
>> Adding a rule for Easter would be trivial; making it
>> acceptable to both West and East, less so.
>
> Easy, just designate the left half of each level as the West and the
> right half as the East and apply Easter effects only in the half where
> Easter currently applies.

Heh. I kind of like that idea, although I'm strongly opposed to adding any
religious holiday code to NetHack, except perhaps in hallucinations.

--
Benjamin Lewis

A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they
are held by most to be the lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.