1080 ATI<->Philips LCD issue

[snow_master]

Hi,
I am using an HTPC system with the following spec
I5 750 / 4GB RAM / ATI HD4550 (running win7 32bits but also tried it with vista 32bit) Connected by HDMI to a Philips 47pfl7603D
When set to 720@60Hz I get great crisp picture, however when I change the resolution to 1080 (at any refresh rate tried them all in CCC) I have a problem especially when the content is moving (can see it clearly when moving the mouse) of tiny horizontal lines that makes the objects (like the mouse pointer) kind of jitter (kind of like a “lack of anti aliasing” for those of you that know 3D graphics).
The exact same LCD when connected to the PS3 is yielding an amazing picture in 1080.
Been investigating this issue for a while and tried almost every permutation of the CCC settings.
Needless to say latest version of drivers for the ATI and Philips have been installed.
If anyone can solve my issue I will be more than grateful!!!

 

[megamanx00]

A lowly 4550 shouldn't have any trouble with a 1080p set, but it seems as though it's behaving like it's not fast enough. Exactly which 4550 do you have?

 

[Ancient_1]

I wish I had an answer for you but my 47" Philips does a nice job with the 1080 display. Text on it look much better on it than the newer Samsung 120hz 52A750 even tho video does look better on the Sammy.

I do think I know what you mean tho. For a while I had a similar look to anything I played with Media Player Classic even tho Windows Media Player played everything fine. I don't know why but for some reason the problem with MPC solved itself. I don't know if it was a driver update a windows update or a settings change I made in W7 or MPC itself.

What I thought at thought at the time is that it had something to do with the interlacing/de-interlacing of the video and how it was handled.

I don't have a very good camera but here is a photo of my display (compressed) and a couple sections at native of the camera to show that no horizontal lines appear.

As far as the power of your vid card it is fine, I have used a HD2400, HD3870 and a HD4670 (current) and cannot tell the difference except in games

 

[snow_master]

Thanks for your responses.
megamanx00, I agree, it is as if the video card can’t handle the refresh rate however as you say, even a low end 4550 should be able to easily handle 1080p…I am using a Gigabyte GV-R455D3-512I.
Ancient_1, if I will take a pic of my display it will probably show the same as yours, the problem starts when movements occurs, so for example if you shake these windows do you still see a crisp sharp image? Because I don’t… When I will get back home later I will try to capture this using a camera (though I think it will be tricky) and post the images.

 

[Sups]

I'm also using a Philips but it's the smaller 42" 7603D model.
I've had the same problem since day one and I kinda live with it. Sadly I don't think there's anything you can do about it. It looks like 7 and 9 models of Philips LCD TVs can't handle the FullHD signal from the computer properly. I've read somewhere that the 5 models do the job fine.
I've also updated the firmware and am using the latest nVidia drivers for my Geforce 8800GT but no better results. I've also contacted Philips about this issue and the response was something like "this is a TV not a PC monitor").
Also the input lag is quite big so I have to delay the sound to aprox 120ms in my MPC if I want to have my movies in sync. You can sense it when moving the mouse, it's quite obvious.
The newer TV sets have this "game mode" which lowers the input lag and probably is a lot more PC friendly.
If anyone has any suggestions/solutions I also would like to know.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Input lag could be a problem and the signal being 60hz instead of 30hz could cause issues since TVs are targeting 25/30hz more than the higher 50/60, and that's despite the BS sub-field processing. It also depends on the panel itself as to how well it will react to fast motion.

After reading the specs, I would recommend turning off the "HD Natural Motion" feature and see if that helps, you don't want any additional processing, which may try to blur the image to make it appear smoother for movies and such, but may introduce artifacts, otherwise as Sups says you may just be stuck with a panel that's not good for the job.

 

[snow_master]

Sups - I hope you are wrong, I just love this set, it has the best image ever and the ambilight is what I call thinking out of the box, literally! it is weird that the 7 and 9 models wont deal with a signal that a lower series (the 5) will....
TheGreatGrapeApe - this panel spec states it supports:
Computer formats:
Resolution Refresh rate
640 x 480 60Hz
800 x 600 60Hz
1024 x 768 60Hz
1920 x 1080i 60Hz
1920 x 1080p 60Hz
Video formats:
Resolution Refresh rate
480i 60Hz
480p 60Hz
576i 50Hz
576p 50Hz
720p 50Hz, 60Hz
1080i 50Hz, 60Hz
1080p 24Hz, 25Hz, 30Hz
1080p 50Hz, 60Hz
As i said i tried them all with the same issue.
I turned off all the processors including the natural motion, still same issue.
BTW, the image from the PS3 is superb (also connected with HDMI) so it doesn’t make sense that the problem is with the panel….

 

[Sups]

Well I haven't found any proper solution in a year and a half since I own this set. I've also been searching through other forums and no luck there either. I was hoping Philips would resolve this issue in one of the firmware upgrades but no luck thus far.
I also have all imaging processes disabled, but the "interlaced" image when moving object around won't go away...

 

[Ancient_1]

I think the problem you are talking about is how LCD's deal with motion blur and it is a problem with all LCD displays and not just your Philips TV. Here is a link to look at and go down to the motion blur section and run the animation.

I took a couple pics of a scene from this weeks Community that shows the problem quite vividly on both my Philips TV and Samsung LCD monitor for comparison (got as close to the same scene I could). Maybe in the next week I can get a shot of it on the Samsung 52A750 which is a 120hz set and does a better job with motion blur but it is still a problem just not quite as bad. The only thing that look to be in focus is the NBC logo because it is the only stationary image on the screen. The source is a cap of the 1080i Transport Stream played on MPC-HC.

And if this is what you are referring to no amount of firmware updates or software will cure the problem since it is a common problem with all LCD's even tho the newer higher hz sets are doing a better job of coping with it.

As far as input lag I have not seen that but I do have mouse lag sometimes but it is a problem with my puter I am sure since it is only evident when I am at very high cpu usage such as encoding x264 or running stress tests like p95 and LinX.

Philips TV

Samsung monitor

 

[Sups]

@Ancient: noup...montion blur is another thing...like snow_master put it...no such thing at 720p 60Hz. Only in FullHD.

 

[Sups]

OK. I did a short demo of the problem moving the recycle bin window around a bit both in 720p and 1080p.
Please note that motion blur can be seen in both modes, but be aware of the lines that occur and look like an interlacing problem in the 1080p.

Video LINK


Edited to fix link. - TGGA

 

[snow_master]

Ancient, like Sups say it is not motion blur that will show regardless of the resolution.
Sups, Exactly!
i tried taking stills images but couldn’t get a frame that shows the problem as your video demonstrate it.
Have you tried connecting other 1080 devices (Blue-Ray? PS3?) as I said, I can’t understand if it’s a panel issue why it doesn’t happen with the PS3 as well…

 

[Ancient_1]

Ok I see in the video what you are talking about. I can not reproduce that on my set in either XP or W7 RC at any resolution. Have you tried it in XP to see if it is a problem with W7/Vista? Like I said earlier I did have a problem with how video on MPC-HC looked in W7 that I can only describe as a problem with interlacing.

 

[snow_master]

Ancient, what is your philips 47 set exact model?

 

[Ancient_1]

47PFL7422D/37

 

[Sups]

@snow_master: I have posted this problem (including the video link) to some other forums. If I get some feedback, I'll let U know.

 

[snow_master]

Ancient, very weird....looking at our set specs they are almost identical...are you using the perfect pixel processor?
Sups, great - i must admit finding i am not alone with this issue do give me some comfort...as they say The trouble of many - the consolation of fools (kind of lost in translation (-

 

[Ancient_1]

Here are all my video settings. They are setup for viewing on my computer and are a bit bright for viewing from the Tuner or cable box, but since 90%+ of my viewing is from my computer I set it that way.

Contrast 88
Brightness 67
Color 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 5
Color Temp Cool
Perfect Pixel on
Dynamic Contrast Maximum
Noise Reduction Off
MPEG Artifact Reduction On
Color Enhancement Maximum
Active Control Off
Light Sensor Off

 

[snow_master]

Ancient, if you set perfect pixel to off, do you get a similar problem like Sups and mine?

 

[Ancient_1]

I can't try it right now. I have a bunch of shows to record and I am in XP which is fine both with and without it enabled. I will try it in W7 in the morning and let you know.

 

[Ancient_1]

Here is a shot of me shaking a window in W7 with PP off and 1080p. It is tougher than you might think to shake a window with the mouse and take a pic at the same time.

 

[snow_master]

Ancient, Yea i know i gave up on it myself (-:
As you can see from Sups video, our problem is different and is causing the "Interlace" horizontal lines visual phenomena.
BTW, have you tried turning the perfect pixel off?

 

[Ancient_1]

That last pic was with Perfect Pixel off.

 

[ales13]

hallo

I have the same LCD and W7 laptop connected over HDMI... I have the same problem with picture at the moment I use mouse. The whole picture is "shaking"... do you guys know the problem or have you solved it?
please answer me to ales13@gmail.com!

regards
aleš