AGP Platform Analysis, Part 1: New Cards, Old System

[qwertz82]

toms hardware should do a head-to-head comparison between agp and pci-express platforms with these cards.

 

[cripp]

I have an Athlon XP 3200+, would I see much of the difference between the that and say Athlon 64 3700+ with 2x512 PC3200 DDR dual channel memory?
Current computer configuration.

AMD Athlon XP 3200+
Abit nf7-sV2 motherboard
2x512mb PC3200 (400mhz) DDR memory
ATI Raedon 9600 Pro AGP video card
80g IDE HDD, 160g IDE HDD.
200g SATA HDD, 320g SATA HDD
2 DVD- RW's drive

 

[cleeve]

I do wish THG would stop ignoring the 7600GS AGP and start giving it the respect its market popularity warrants.

Stop ignoring it and give it respect?

WTF, I have put the 7600 GS in the 'Best cards for the Money' list for months (right along with the X1650 PRO AGP which performs slightly better on average for the same $$, BTW)... and that's me not giving it respect?

Jesus man, I don't have a zillion AGP video cards lying around, and I don't have the extra weeks to request/test every bloody card on the planet.

The review was targeted toward and old platform paired with the best cards available, I never claimed to offer a comparison of every viable AGP card on the market today.

You really have no clue, do you? try some constructive criticism/ suggestions instead of whining, you might find it garners you a bit more respect instead of mere dismissal.

 

[cleeve]

I have an Athlon XP 3200+, would I see much of the difference between the that and say Athlon 64 3700+ with 2x512 PC3200 DDR dual channel memory?

A big difference, probably. Stay tuned for the follow up article with the Athlon 64 3400+, it'll perform fairly closely to the 3700+.

 

[cleeve]

toms hardware should do a head-to-head comparison between agp and pci-express platforms with these cards.

That'll be in the next article, which is done on an Asrock dual-SATA2 mobo with both PCIe and AGP slots, both running at full speed (not like some mobos where one slot is crippled).

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Jesus man, I don't have a zillion AGP video cards lying around, and I don't have the extra weeks to request/test every bloody card on the planet.

Man you really need a lotto 6/49 win to get things straightened out! :twisted:

BTW, I demand to see the Volari DUO V8 in the next review too, c'mon what are you paid off by ATi and nV !?! :mrgreen:

That'll be in the next article, which is done on an Asrock dual-SATA2 mobo with both PCIe and AGP slots, both running at full speed (not like some mobos where one slot is crippled).

Oh I almost forgot, I also want AGP+PCIe Xfire runs! If you think you're up to the task. :tongue:

Hey you might wanna ask Paul to send you a few cards I think he has like 2 of every card ever sold.

And now for something completely different...

 

[msjason]

WOW Great article just what I was waiting for:

I use only 1280x1024 res on hl2/source engines, would be great to see the benchmark between the cards on hl2 engine.

My system is:
p-4 3ghz HT
2x512 ddr 400
9600xt – will be upgrading now, probably to the 1950pro because of the resolution differences.
Because of the updates of the source engine lately my fps has dropped drastically.
Giga-byte 8knxp 875 motherboard
2x160gb 7200 8mb WD HD
I wonder what the difference is between agp and pci-e with the 1950pro.
Looking forward for part 2

 

[Jaybot]

On this platform, I suspect that the x1650xt would perform with in a frame or two of the X1950pro's, in every test except Oblivion. But until (or unless) the prices become reasonable the whole issue is moot. Newegg was selling the HIS xt for $220, come on, thats almost a hundred dollars more than the pci-e version. And anything close to $300 for the x1950pro makes it an impractical purchase as well. The price of 7900GS's is hitting $150, sure it's a bit slower but at that price it's worth upgrading a motherboard ( and even a processor if you moving from an Athlon xp). I've been waiting for a good AGP card since my 6800U craped out on me a couple months ago and I've spent way too much time looking at the issue. If the retailers are going to try and take advantage of customers inability or reluctance to upgrade by charging outrageous markups on these cards, it's better to just bite the bullet and upgrade.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Newegg was selling the HIS xt for $220,

Actually they WERE selling it for $186 just last week.

come on, thats almost a hundred dollars more than the pci-e version.

Well they aren't the same models, the PCIe versions you're looking at are 256MB, the AGP is 512MB, so it's still not apples to apples.

The price of 7900GS's is hitting $150, sure it's a bit slower but at that price it's worth upgrading a motherboard ( and even a processor if you moving from an Athlon xp).

Well that depends on what you have and what you're upgrading to and why. The point is that the PCIe versions are often cheaper enough to get a new mainboard, etc. But if you only have $200 dollars to spend you're limited to an AGP solution for now until you have more money.
Even the most pracical upgrade to an LGA775 DDR/DDR2 mainboard with a cheap proc means at least $100 ontop of the rest.

However with an AGP card now, then the user can upgrade later, with something like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813135196 keeping the old DDR and gettting the best proc they can afford, but still using the AGP card, the upgrading whatever they want after that, DDR2, PCIe or faster Proc depending on what the thing holding it back later.

I've been waiting for a good AGP card since my 6800U craped out on me a couple months ago and I've spent way too much time looking at the issue. If the retailers are going to try and take advantage of customers inability or reluctance to upgrade by charging outrageous markups on these cards, it's better to just bite the bullet and upgrade.

Well considering the cost of upgrade, it's really something to look into regardless of the way you go, something that was especially the case with the overprice GF7800GS.

 

[Barka]

Great artical, just up my street!

shame this artical wasnt done a while back it may of swayed my desicion to buy the one thing missing in this artical, the Gainward Bliss 7800GS+

I'd love to see this in the next artical as many have mentioned.

I've a pretty old system

amd 64 3000(newcastle) clocked to 2.2ghz
dfi lanparty nf3 ut250gb
1gb ddr3500
Gainward Bliss 7800GS+
200gb sata

and would love to see the diffrence between the X1950 PRO and the 7800gs+

 

[custommadename]

Hey, I noticed something interesting.

"The Sapphire card requires TWO Molex connectors for power, which is one more than any other AGP card I've ever tested." (From the article.)

The 6800 Ultra AGP also has 2 molex connectors, and that's for power. For this came around the PCI-E connector, which has an adapter that draws from two molex connectors regardless.

Whereas Sapphire's card takes 2 molex connectors directly, the Powercolor uses a PCI-E connector. It's likely that few AGP systems have the PCI-E connector, so they'll need to use the 2 molex -> PCI-E adapter anyway.

 

[msjason]

i ordered the gercube 1950pro 256mb for 200$ i could have got the 7600gt 256mb for 140$ which is 60$ less, but i hope the results in high res will make allot of deference will be worth it.

i am not intending to buy a new computer soon so i think it's worth the invesment.

 

[potoroo]

I do wish THG would stop ignoring the 7600GS AGP and start giving it the respect its market popularity warrants.

Stop ignoring it and give it respect?

WTF, I have put the 7600 GS in the 'Best cards for the Money' list for months (right along with the X1650 PRO AGP which performs slightly better on average for the same $$, BTW)... and that's me not giving it respect?

Jesus man, I don't have a zillion AGP video cards lying around, and I don't have the extra weeks to request/test every bloody card on the planet.

The review was targeted toward and old platform paired with the best cards available, I never claimed to offer a comparison of every viable AGP card on the market today.

You really have no clue, do you? try some constructive criticism/ suggestions instead of whining, you might find it garners you a bit more respect instead of mere dismissal.
I'm not the only person in this thread who noted the 7600GS's conspicuous absence and pointing that out is constructive criticism. The X1950 Pro is interesting but the 7600GS is a lot more relevant in the real world, so any "AGP Roundup" with a clue would include it. I'm helping a lot of people with older systems upgrade and they're not buying the high end, they're buying the 7600GS as being the best balance of performance and value for them. I'm seeing that a lot. If you got out of your lab for a while you might learn something useful. THG isn't the only review site that puts too much emphasis on the high end but that doesn't make it right, nor does abusing me change the fact you stuffed up.

If you think you've got an argument to put then fine but I assure you that you cannot bully me so give it up now.

 

[Dade_0182]

so would a 9700 pro be a significant boost in perofrmance for me?

my system now:
amd athlon 2600+
512mb pc2100 @266mhz
fx5500 128mb

i would just swap out the video card, not sure if it would be a big performance boost or not and if its worth the $60 upgrade (ebay).
and if it is a good boost, can i play half life 2, fear, and other newer games at low settings @ 1280x768??

I have a 9700pro and know that hl2 screams on it (it was the target hardware for that engine in the beginning) but with fear you are limited to 1024x769 w/ settings on low and 800x600 w/ any effects on. Newer games will get even worse. If you read the article, the 9700 was only included as a reference for an older system, not intended as an upgrade path.

it stomps on the fx series, but any of the other cards listed in the article are better options. Heck, I would imagine that even a 7600GS would do better in current games than a 9700pro. (maybe not, but 7600GS would have better quality)

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE that card, but only b/c I bought it at the top of it's game and stuck with it for years... if I were buying any card today for an old agp system, the 7600GS would be minimum IMO.Hey, I just bought the XFX version of it (7600GS) and I can play most games on high settings. You really underestimate the power of the 7600GS.

I played NFS Carbon on MAX with decent frames on (resolution: 1024x769). Fear on High and before that upgrade I couldn't play Neverwinter Nights 2. Now I play it on full as well.

 

[Datman]

I wonder what the difference is between agp and pci-e with the 1950pro.
Looking forward for part 2

PowerColor Radeon X1950 Pro AGP Review
.

 

[atp777]

Hey Dade_0182, what's the rest of your system specs?

 

[damikez]

That'll be in the next article, which is done on an Asrock dual-SATA2 mobo with both PCIe and AGP slots, both running at full speed (not like some mobos where one slot is crippled).

How about a Core 2 CPU on an AGP platform in the review? That's my current setup right now, Core 2 Duo E6400 + 7800GS on an Asus P5PE-VM. I've been hearing a lot of cr@p about AGP being dead and all (might be true for some people), but I don't think current and next gen (DX10) games can fully saturate the AGP bus. Having the option for a X1950 on AGP is great, any news about a DX10 on AGP??? 😉

 

[torque79]

great article. I really appreciate you doing this type of story, because I also am in this AGP boat.

I'd like to ask anyone (this seems a well informed AGP crowd), if they know of someplace that compares a 7600GS overclocked (I understand they overclock very well) vs an x1950pro overclocked? Just wondering what kind of % gain I'd have from 7600-x1950, and if it is roughly in line with the cost difference? I also read that the 1950pro is about at the height of its architecture and probably cannot be overclocked much, so I wonder how much difference there is in the end.

I have been quite happy with my x800gto overclocked to this point, but I have a number of PC's running now and could use it as a hand-me-down to one of the others.

thanks!
my specs:
Athlon64 3200+
1gb DDR1 Kingston valueRAM
Sapphire x800gto 256mb gddr3 oc'd about 15% with Zalman cooler
soundblaster audigy 2
1tb+ of hard drives

 

[BennyB]

Nice article and a much needed one since, as mentioned, the bottlenecking is a common topic of discussions. I´m already eager to read Part 2.

Me too, the XP2500 seemed to be the bottle neck on some tests, I have an XP3200 with a 850XT PE and I want to know if I'll have the same probel if I upgrade my GPU, roll on part 2

Like someone said, it's good to see reviews that are not high and most readers can relate to or have experiance with.

 

[cleeve]

THG isn't the only review site that puts too much emphasis on the high end but that doesn't make it right, nor does abusing me change the fact you stuffed up.

Lol. You just refuse to understand, don't you?

The article is about HIGH END CARDS FOR AGP. It is not about mid-end cards.

If you can't wrap your head around that, it is neither THG's fault, nor my own... :roll:

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The X1950 Pro is interesting but the 7600GS is a lot more relevant in the real world

'Relevant'? Culturally or Spiritually? :roll:

The Reality is that the GF7600GS is rarely now a good buy, and it's role has changed much from being the only mid-range nV card to now being the red-headed stepchild of the GF7600GT again. When the competition was the X1600Pro the argument was good for either or, now that the X1650Pro is out the GF7600GS has fallen by the wayside because for the same price price it's a lesser performer. So it's only of interest to those who are brand loyal. The GF7600GT is the card people have been waiting for, as it was better than the X1600Pro and X1650Pro. The inclusion or omission of the GF7600GS is no longer as important, it could be used as a reference poit, but there are many reviews showing that it's no longer worth consideration as when it was one of the only players in the segment.

so any "AGP Roundup" with a clue would include it. I'm helping a lot of people with older systems upgrade and they're not buying the high end, they're buying the 7600GS as being the best balance of performance and value for them.

Except for the fact that it's not a good balance of performance and value. The X1650P takes the under $150 performance, the GF7600GT takes the $150-$200 performance, the X1650XT takes the gap between the GF7600GT and the X1950Pro, and the X1950Pro as has been shown many times before takes the high end. Really there is no room left for the GF7600GS being in the 'best bang for the buck' segment. If nV had updated the GS with a similar refresh to the X1650Pro then that card might still be included, but instead they used the GF7600GT as the refresh, and it fits in well better than the X1600Pro and the rare APG X1600XTs and X1650Pro, the only issue for the GT is whenever the X1650XT goes on sale.

THG isn't the only review site that puts too much emphasis on the high end but that doesn't make it right, nor does abusing me change the fact you stuffed up.

You assume he's stuffed it because you haven't taken your head out of your A$$, you accuse him of being stuck in the lab, yet by the same token it's obvious by his other discussions here that he's fully aware of the fate of the now out of place GF7600GS. As for the mid-range segment think about WHY people are uprading, it's not to buy a GF7300GS or X1300 in AGP, it's to move from their GF6600-6800GT or X700-800 to something worthwhile, and the GF7600GS doesn't fit that option anymore, not because it's gotten worse, but because the other options are now better.

If you think you've got an argument to put then fine but I assure you that you cannot bully me so give it up now.

OOOoh a throw down. Well I can assure you that I can pummel you with my big ginormic glowing brain

, but if you think you have an argument, then put it forth but don't whine about a product not getting respect as if it's some being with feelings. You statements make you look out of touch and more like someone defending their own personal card than someone who deserves respect themselves. Prove me wrong, otherwise go away and stop bothering the nice people! :roll:

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I'd like to ask anyone (this seems a well informed AGP crowd), if they know of someplace that compares a 7600GS overclocked (I understand they overclock very well) vs an x1950pro overclocked?

Nothing in a vs article but Xbit did some volt-moding withextreme cooling of the GSs and GTs with some good results, but remember they are extreme cooled and even some rarified GDDR3 cards, and I haven't seen a single AGP variant with good memory on it, and the PCIe versions cost as much as the cards their trying to match with the extreme OC. However even with the GDDR3 and extreme volt mod OC'ing it still falls in line with an OC'ed GF7600GT, more at the level of the X1650XT or X1950GT performance than the X1950Pro performance.

I also read that the 1950pro is about at the height of its architecture and probably cannot be overclocked much, so I wonder how much difference there is in the end.

Well it's not that the X1950P can't be OC'ed itself because it's at the end of the architecture so much as it can't be OC'ed much because it very well locked-up and volt regulated by ATi. Some forum member (like GW) have tried pretty hard to get huge jumps, and have managed solid boosts but nothing spectacular like in the past.

 

[torque79]

I was not aware of the existence of 7600GT until your last post, they are not yet available in my local PC stores. The x1950 is not either for that matter, but the x1650 is.

sounds like the 1950pro is probably the best value, but I'll have to save up more pennies.

 

[Parge]

I do wish THG would stop ignoring the 7600GS AGP and start giving it the respect its market popularity warrants.

Stop ignoring it and give it respect?

WTF, I have put the 7600 GS in the 'Best cards for the Money' list for months (right along with the X1650 PRO AGP which performs slightly better on average for the same $$, BTW)... and that's me not giving it respect?

Jesus man, I don't have a zillion AGP video cards lying around, and I don't have the extra weeks to request/test every bloody card on the planet.

The review was targeted toward and old platform paired with the best cards available, I never claimed to offer a comparison of every viable AGP card on the market today.

You really have no clue, do you? try some constructive criticism/ suggestions instead of whining, you might find it garners you a bit more respect instead of mere dismissal.

Here here, there's no pleasing some people, the article was great! If you get a chance, I would like to see how a p4 3ghz works out in part 2!

 

[msjason]

hey thanks datman 😀
this cards rocks in OPENGL except quake it vlearly takes everyone else by a mile.

any way didint see much deference between pci-e and agp which is cool.

the cpu was a strong cpu in the benchmark and 2gb memory, so i hope no bottle neck here.

The debate is, should you upgrade to a new card like the Radeon X1950 Pro AGP, or just junk the idea of a midlife upgrade and swap out your motherboard, graphics, and other components and make the move to PCI Express.

Hopefully this article shed a little light on what kind of performance you could expect from going down the midlife upgrade path (via the PowerColor X1950 Pro AGP), or for the all-out replacement with the PCI Express system.

As you just saw in our benchmarks, in many cases the AGP rig is quite a capable performer. In Quake 4 and Oblivion for instance, the difference in performance was nearly indistinguishable. Company of Heroes, and to a slightly lesser extent F.E.A.R. were the only applications where the PCI Express X1950 Pro card really pulled ahead of its AGP counterpart, with the PCIe board running up to 9% faster in CoH at 1600x1200 with 2xAA/8xAF.

In comparison to the other AGP cards, the Radeon X1950 Pro is clearly in a class of its own right now. With the exception of Quake 4 (where the GeForce 7800 GS quite handily outperformed the X1950 Pro), the X1950 Pro swept all of our benchmarks, sometimes delivering over 1.5 times the performance of the GeForce 7800 GS AGP. Unless you’re a heavy Quake player, the Radeon X1950 Pro is definitely the fastest GPU out there on the AGP platform. It really isn’t all that close either.