AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[esrever]

Also AMD has been very quiet on the technical side. Everything is about their financial troubles right now and they have not announced anything in more than a month. No revised roadmaps yet, not even talks of the next generation for gpu. Things are really quiet.

 

[mayankleoboy1]

the ram were great as far as I know.

Thats not the point. Every RAM out there is good. The point is : Will they be able to distinguish themselves amongst other brands ?

 

[Chad Boga]

Heres the problem with X86 in mobile: How many apps are written for Android/iOS for the ARM architecture? Its going to be REALLY hard for X86 to break in now. X86 in mobile is now basically reliant on Windows 8 for its success.

Since ARM processors were in mobile devices before Intel's, a substantial software base for ARM's processors was built up.

However, due to the way that the Google (GOOG) Android operating system and its programs are designed, instruction set is not relevant to
the majority of applications since almost every Android application is written in Java. Java programs are written in a high level language and
then compiled down into an intermediate form called bytecode. This bytecode is then, at execution time, translated into the actual machine
instructions by a virtual machine. This means that the only barrier to compatibility is having a virtual machine built into Android that can
translate Java bytecode into native instructions. Intel and Google have achieved this, which is why software compatibility on Android is
essentially a non-issue. This is also why we have shipping Android phones with Intel processors in them today.

So the main barrier to entry for a new instruction set -- X86 in the mobile world -- is a non-issue on the target platform that Intel is aiming for
in phones. It also helps that Android's global market share is 75%. That means that Intel's chips could power the majority of the world's
smartphones without any technical limitations.

EDIT

Basically, its the same exact situation with ARM on the desktop: With so many apps written against X86, what are the chances it can make inroads? Not very good.

No it is not the exact same situation.

ARM have a far harder task in overcoming software incompatibility with x86 software, than Intel has with Android.

 

[-Fran-]

Since ARM processors were in mobile devices before Intel's, a substantial software base for ARM's processors was built up.

However, due to the way that the Google (GOOG) Android operating system and its programs are designed, instruction set is not relevant to
the majority of applications since almost every Android application is written in Java. Java programs are written in a high level language and
then compiled down into an intermediate form called bytecode. This bytecode is then, at execution time, translated into the actual machine
instructions by a virtual machine. This means that the only barrier to compatibility is having a virtual machine built into Android that can
translate Java bytecode into native instructions. Intel and Google have achieved this, which is why software compatibility on Android is
essentially a non-issue. This is also why we have shipping Android phones with Intel processors in them today.

So the main barrier to entry for a new instruction set -- X86 in the mobile world -- is a non-issue on the target platform that Intel is aiming for
in phones. It also helps that Android's global market share is 75%. That means that Intel's chips could power the majority of the world's
smartphones without any technical limitations.

EDIT

Basically, its the same exact situation with ARM on the desktop: With so many apps written against X86, what are the chances it can make inroads? Not very good.

No it is not the exact same situation.

ARM have a far harder task in overcoming software incompatibility with x86 software, than Intel has with Android.

Just one little caveat to that statement: High performing apps usually have code tied to the arch. So this works both ways. A program written in Java, as you say, can be ported with almost no issues in 90% of the cases, since the JVM works across platforms. Now, the thing is when you use "close to hardware" implementations. I don't really know what % is that (could be the 10% I'm thinking), but I'd say those are like pseudo-blockbuster apps. It's like Tegra3 games out there. They can run, mostly, across the board, but the porting process must be a PITA from the graphics point of view.

So, in short, base Android has no issues as an OS, but extrapolating that to the vast majority of apps is a really optimistic (but not so far off the mark) position for Intel (and the x86 ISA).

Cheers!

 

[gamerk316]

Just one little caveat to that statement: High performing apps usually have code tied to the arch. So this works both ways. A program written in Java, as you say, can be ported with almost no issues in 90% of the cases, since the JVM works across platforms. Now, the thing is when you use "close to hardware" implementations. I don't really know what % is that (could be the 10% I'm thinking), but I'd say those are like pseudo-blockbuster apps. It's like Tegra3 games out there. They can run, mostly, across the board, but the porting process must be a PITA from the graphics point of view.

So, in short, base Android has no issues as an OS, but extrapolating that to the vast majority of apps is a really optimistic (but not so far off the mark) position for Intel (and the x86 ISA).

Cheers!

More or less. And I note its normal even in Java to slap arch specific functions in when needed (mainly to hide Java's performance issues).

[rant]Its a shame really that Java caught on; now you have a generation of SW Engineers that are clueless about memory management and how to properly handle memory. I shudder to think of what will happen when these engineers touch a system where they have to manage memory themselves...[/rant]

 

[mayankleoboy1]

low level coding is going out of fashion, except in very specific cases. Fast hardware + high level language+excellent compiler = stupid programmer+ reduced development times.

 

[gamerk316]

low level coding is going out of fashion, except in very specific cases. Fast hardware + high level language+excellent compiler = stupid programmer+ reduced development times.

Generally, yes, the compiler slaps in the low level replacements during compilation (SSE, AVX, etc). But remember that a LOT of functionality depends on the instruction set used. For instance, different graphics API's necessitates the entire graphical backend be re-designed, even if the end functionality is the same. You also have OS API differences, which necessitate a lot of code changes [pthreads vs CreateThread, for instance], regardless of the language of choice.

 

[-Fran-]

Also, include closed libraries/frameworks to the party; those have to be ported as well

Cheers!

 

[davemaster84]

Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks

 

[-Fran-]

Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113284&Tpk=fx%208350

http://www.amazon.com/AMD-FX-Series-Eight-Core-Processor-FD8350FRHKBOX/dp/B009O7YUF6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354216585&sr=8-1&keywords=fx+8350

Looks like they are.

Where do you live? You could buy one from Amazon and get it shipped to you.

Cheers!

 

[griptwister]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113284&Tpk=fx%208350

http://www.amazon.com/AMD-FX-Series-Eight-Core-Processor-FD8350FRHKBOX/dp/B009O7YUF6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354216585&sr=8-1&keywords=fx+8350

Looks like they are.

Where do you live? You could buy one from Amazon and get it shipped to you.

Cheers!

Amazon is also cheaper!

 

[de5_Roy]

Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks

imo $300 is core i7 price range. how are the core i5/i7 cpus priced at your location? i think i5/i7 would be better if they're around $300 as well....unless you're only upgrading the cpu of your existing am3+ pc.

 

[griptwister]

imo $300 is core i7 price range. how are the core i5/i7 cpus priced at your location? i think i5/i7 would be better if they're around $300 as well....unless you're only upgrading the cpu of your existing am3+ pc.

Because there are only a handful and the store need money, they probably won't sell cheaper. The i7 would probably be more expensive. Think about that. How ever, I do agree with your statement... if you have $300 to blow, buy an i7 and sell your old MoBo and buy a z77.

I, for one, am waiting till March 2013 for the new Intel processor line to drop so I can upgrade to a FX 8350 for a better price point.

 

[davemaster84]

Oh I see. Well the thing is that around here an i7 3770k is around 350 US (bit more) and the i5 3570k is at 250, although I might consider the i7 (the i5 is not as good as the 8350) I've a good am3+ mobo, changing to intel with a similar mobo would be between 600 and 700 US so I'd rather just pay 300 for the 8350. By the way I live at Bogotá, Colombia.

 

[amdfangirl]

Oh yeah, Bogotá.

My Iranian friend has exactly the same problem lol.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Oh yeah, Bogotá.

My Iranian friend has exactly the same problem lol.

Well if he lives in Bogota and thinks it's Iran, he has a somewhat bigger problem, such as maybe using iMaps ..

 

[amdfangirl]

I can navigate through mountains while hiking.

Yet, when it comes down to someone asking what streets join with the street I live on, I tell him I'm from overseas.

It's worse when I try and read a street map. :3

I'm selectively iMaps .

 

[masterman467]

IMO FX-8xxx has little to no use in gaming, even at 189.99, half of the cpu is never used in anything but benchmarks. quite sad, it even gets beat in benchmarks by a 4 core...(SB/IB i5's still kick its @$$) maybe if your rendering videos.... not sure on that, though.

Im still hesitant about Haswell. i dont need a 14W processor... seems like they are just going to "port" a laptop cpu to desktops. if they can lower power without losing ... power, how many people are going to upgrade? few to none. if AMD gets there ducks in a row they MAY be able to make something to compete with Intel when they mess up and ignore the gaming section of the market.

So, AMD. make something that is 4 cores that will whoop an i5 @stock clocks and INCLUDE a great cooler, i don't care if it sucks 180w. and sell it for 200 bucks. you will OWN the gaming CPU market, no doubt. (and your making your chips in china for 15 bucks already. you would still make a killing off this.)

 

[-Fran-]

Oh I see. Well the thing is that around here an i7 3770k is around 350 US (bit more) and the i5 3570k is at 250, although I might consider the i7 (the i5 is not as good as the 8350) I've a good am3+ mobo, changing to intel with a similar mobo would be between 600 and 700 US so I'd rather just pay 300 for the 8350. By the way I live at Bogotá, Colombia.

I think is not so expensive to send stuff (with Amazon) to Colombia. You could take a look into the mail over seas area for Amazon. My guess is it should be around usd$40 to send it.

And the FX8350 holds its own in some games. Too bad Intel still gets more love though

Cheers!

 

[gamerk316]

I think is not so expensive to send stuff (with Amazon) to Colombia. You could take a look into the mail over seas area for Amazon. My guess is it should be around usd$40 to send it.

And the FX8350 holds its own in some games. Too bad Intel still gets more love though

Cheers!

But expected. Adding more cores is simply a performance scalar; adding a second core adds, best case, 2x the performance.

Point being, if individual core performance is half as fast, adding a second core only gets you to equal performance, in best case conditions only. Otherwise, you are still slower.

Hence AMD's problem: 90% of S/W loads do not scale, thus performance is dominated by clockspeed * IPC. Clockspeed is within a few hundred MHz, and IPC is a significant Intel edge. Hence why AMD is behind/even in most workloads.

 

[mayankleoboy1]

And i thought it was the corporate capitalist Intel bastards who use slow code in non intel CPU's in their compiler, and bribe software developers to use ICC only, which made Intel better over AMD.

 

[mayankleoboy1]

@Gamerk316 Hazarding a guess, correct me if wrong: 90% of the propritery/FOSS software/app/program we use on our Windows machines is built/compiled using windows SDK+ Visual Studio ?


To all :

I read an article that compared ICC vs Visual Studio . They found that Intel does discriminate against AMD CPU's.
BUT
Code compiled on ICC for AMD is faster than same code compiled on VS2012 for AMD. That is, ICC creates better code than VS2012 for both Intel and AMD. In case of Intel CPU, the code is more better.

 

[amdfangirl]

They found that Intel does discriminate against AMD CPU's.

At the end of the day we still have to live with the pre-compiled programs. Would be nice if we could remove the bias, but certainly this is difficult in the Windows world.

Faster is still faster, even if the code is biased because we certainly can't do anything about it :/.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

I can navigate through mountains while hiking.

Yet, when it comes down to someone asking what streets join with the street I live on, I tell him I'm from overseas.

It's worse when I try and read a street map. :3

I'm selectively iMaps .

Hmm, I usually try navigating over or around mountains, instead of through them . Unless there's a tunnel that is..

 

[amdfangirl]

Har har, you're so clever