News AMD Teases 5nm Ryzen 7000 ‘Raphael’ Zen 4 CPUs, Unveils Ryzen 7 5800X3D with 96MB of L3 Cache

[VforV]

There is good reason for only 5800X3D. The price will be between 5900x and 12900KF, so about $550... It is the only slow where this chip is price competative!
It is expensive to make, but it is only marginally faster than 5900x in games. So it can not be much more expensive than 5900x.
5950X3D would cost $1100+ and it would not faster at the games and also not faster than normal 5950x in most tasks, so only 5800X3D makes any sense. 5600X3D at $500+ price would be a hard sell...
As a halo flagship product 5800X3D makes more sense!

Interesting to see if there will be also ZEN4 upgrades later with 3D cache at the higher priced segments after normal Zen4 is released at the end of this year? Or do they release 3d cache version at the same time as normal?
My money is that if Zen4 with out 3D cache is fast enough they only release normal versions. If Intel is faster at the games, AMD will release flagship 3D version at the same time.

I think $500 for 5800X3D is already too much. I would not buy that at all at that price. It needs to be $450 or cheaper to matter vs the 12900K/KS, these CPUs are fighting for the gaming crown, but only for that. 5800X3D is not for productivity or other tasks, that's why 5900X and 5950X will be both better for those tasks and more expensive too.

I expect the 12900KS to win by 5%, because it not and it's equal or slower (LOL) than 5800X3D, than AL is done. 12900KS needs to win to not be considered the laughing stock vs 5800X3D. I don't expect it to win by more than 5% though and even so the 5800X3D still looks better being cheaper, cooler and with a lower power consumption.

The more I think about 5800X3D the more it makes sense as the best price/perf CPU for gaming until Zen4 arrives.

 

[jpe1701]

This is one of those times when I wish tech reporters were more like White house reporters. They should have called them out on the 5800x3d being the only 3d v cache sku. I literally held off on buying a 5900x for nothing.

 

[salgado18]

The 5800X3D could be a worthy upgrade only for Ryzen 3000 and older owners. Anyone with a 5600X or better should eye on Zen4.

That said, I get that 3D V-Cache is cool and all, but wouldn't it be more effective to release Zen3+ desktop CPUs? I mean, they say it has better clocks and thermals, so they could compete better versus Alder Lake with a consistent performance boost, instead of only a few workloads. And why not Zen3+ with 3D V-Cache? If they have the better chip, why use the older one?

 

[-Fran-]

The 5800X3D could be a worthy upgrade only for Ryzen 3000 and older owners. Anyone with a 5600X or better should eye on Zen4.

That said, I get that 3D V-Cache is cool and all, but wouldn't it be more effective to release Zen3+ desktop CPUs? I mean, they say it has better clocks and thermals, so they could compete better versus Alder Lake with a consistent performance boost, instead of only a few workloads. And why not Zen3+ with 3D V-Cache? If they have the better chip, why use the older one?

If I had to venture a guess, then it would be waffer allocation. The 6nm parts are entirely for Laptop it seems, including GPUs, so they're betting everything for desktop with RDNA3 and Zen4 products later in the year. Well, that's what I think anyway. For now they'll keep Zen3D in the form of the 5800X3D first and maybe another SKU down the line before Zen4 is formally introduced.

Like you say, for anyone using a 5800X and better, moving to a 5800X3D is a bad idea at a first glance and really not something I'd personally recommend. I am still using the 3800XT (and up frm a 2700X), so I will be waiting for pricing details of the 5800X3D for sure, but I'm not holding my breath. If I don't like the price, the 3800XT is still capable of doing everything I want and I'm sure other Zen2 and, maybe, Zen1 and 1+ users too can wait for Zen4. It will all come down to price, which I can't say I'm hopeful about.

Regards.

 

[sizzling]

The 5800X3D could be a worthy upgrade only for Ryzen 3000 and older owners. Anyone with a 5600X or better should eye on Zen4.

Depending on price, reviews & availability I will seriously consider the 5800X3D as an upgrade over my 3700X. This would maximise the life out of my AM4 and DDR4 setup and give gaming performance near the best available today.

 

[VforV]

Depending on price, reviews & availability I will seriously consider the 5800X3D as an upgrade over my 3700X. This would maximise the life out of my AM4 and DDR4 setup and give gaming performance near the best available today.

Exactly. Even for a 5600X owner like me, the 5800X3D is still viable and a decent upgrade, but it all comes down to the price.

I for one don't want to upgrade to a new platform altogether with Zen4, like I did not care to do so with Alder Lake, so an easy CPU upgrade with 5800X3D to last me 2 years at least is much better for me. I will probably be interested in Zen5.

I never buy the 1st generation of anything, I don't like to be an early adopter/beta tester. From 2nd gen up I'm interested.

 

[digitalgriffin]

5800X3D will be a halo piece that marketers love. (Like the corvette at GM, or the GT at Ford) It makes the brand look good, but it will be intentionally priced low (about $50 than a 5800X) and delivered in even lower numbers, just so AMD can have bragging rights of having the halo product. "Ignore Intel. We give you the fastest gaming processor at a better price to performance ratio. But why don't you look at a 5900X or 5800X since you can't get one."

A bit of a stupid gambit on AMD's part. They will only frustrate their fan base which are now siding with Intel's Alder Lake. Mainstream press outlets are also siding with Intel Alder's Lake. AMD is just not delivering value any more.

For the most part, enthusiast whom seek out these parts do have a limited budget and performance : price is a thing. If the chips aren't available, Alder Lake with B660 chipsets are a better value.

IOTW: Don't count on EVER seeing one.

 

[abufrejoval]

I really wished AMD did a quad-channel CPU to feed the iGPU. It seems like such a good trade-off to me to have better GFX at rather low cost, both with respect to power consumption and to actual real estate (saving a dGPU + dedicated memory). I realize the MB may need to have additional layers but that can be used for other stuff perhaps as well. For a 15W device, it might not be that helpfull, but beef the 15W up to 25/35W and there is a huge gain possible. I need CPU + I/O, GFX is secondary and it is frustrating how higher-end mobile CPUs almost always get coupled with dGPUs.

Rest assured, if it was worth doing, they'd do it. Apple's M1/Pro/Max designs are adding channels for bandwidth, but limit them to the die carrier, where the latency (and power) penalties are also much less. They essentially achieve close to GDDR5 bandwidth multiplying DDR5 channels as they scale to Max.

But using DRAM DIMMs for GPU memory is like using HDD arrays for storage: Yes, when everything lines up correctly, you can achieve massive bandwidth from a large number of drives. But typically game data won't do you that favor. Best GPU memory is both massive bandwidth and low latency and that requires short traces, which negates expandability. And then don't forget power: On larger server systems with eight channels, long traces, re-drivers and amplifiers along the way, DRAM can easily consume more power than CPUs, especially when those aren't fully used.

I think it much more beneficial and likely that AMD might stack some HBM on an APU next.

 

[wifiburger]

"Firing back at Alder Lake "
good one,

Let me look at Amd stock, oh... it's still going down since the announcement. I guess investors are onto something !

There's nothing here from Amd, historically all CPU refreshes from AMD are complete garbage.

The only saving grace is new arch, but those usually and eventually fall behind Intel because Intel is faster at releases.

By the time, 3D Vcache and Zen4 come out, Intel will be on 13th gen.
And I doubt very much this 2nd Zen3 refresh will survive. The one before Zen3+ was cancelled !

 

[mitch074]

My goodness, so much bashing! And all of that, for what reason?
Did anyone stop to consider why the 5800X was the best CPU to get 3D cache?

1. it's a single chiplet processor.
2. it's a fully enabled chip.
3. everybody is gushing on Intel's latest "overwhelmingly more powerful" (read : 20% faster at best) gaming CPU.

What AMD processors are best for gaming? Answer : anything Ryzen 5xxx other than 5950X.
Taking all 3 points together, the best chip to push out is the 5800X3D.
Now, about pricing : how much does it cost to upgrade to Alder Lake? Answer : motherboard + processor + beefy cooler at a minimum (if you go the DDR4 route you can re-use your RAM).
If you bought your Ryzen system in 2018 (because you were looking for the best performance/price ratio and weren't an Intel fanboi), it's now 2022, high time for an upgrade. Your 2600 (or 1600AF) running on a B450 (or an X470) mobo is looking long in the tooth... How much would it cost to upgrade it to something in the ballpark of Intel's top of the line processor?
Yeah, just upgrade your BIOS/UEFI, unmount your CPU cooler, put the new chip inside, apply thermal paste, re-mount your CPU cooler. Double the performance for... what? $500 + $5 of thermal paste?
I'd buy that, actually, if I didn't find my 2700X to still be sufficient for my needs (and I'd rather change my GPU first anyway).

 

[spongiemaster]

My goodness, so much bashing! And all of that, for what reason?
Did anyone stop to consider why the 5800X was the best CPU to get 3D cache?

Forgot about this?

AMD Demos 3D Stacked Ryzen 9 5900X: 192MB of L3 Cache at 2TB/s

When you show a prototype of a 5900x with vcache at your product unveiling along with benchmarks of said prototype, one would naturally assume you're going to release that product:

Then 7 months later you reveal only one 3D cache CPU which isn't the 5900x you demoed. People have every right to ask, "Hey AMD, I put off purchasing X because you showed this CPU coming down the pipe, and now it doesn't exist. What happened?"

 

[Umfriend]

Rest assured, if it was worth doing, they'd do it. [...]

You are probably right but I don;t fear Dunning-Kruger. And with an iGPU, it's not like we would need the bandwidth an RTX3080 uses as the iGPU simply does not process that much. But as I always read that AMDs iGPUs are waiting for data, I do wonder how much difference it would make. I mean, if we want DDR5 for CPUs alone then surely a CPU+iGPU would benefit from increased bandwidth I would think.

 

[-Fran-]

Forgot about this?

AMD Demos 3D Stacked Ryzen 9 5900X: 192MB of L3 Cache at 2TB/s

When you show a prototype of a 5900x with vcache at your product unveiling along with benchmarks of said prototype, one would naturally assume you're going to release that product:

Then 7 months later you reveal only one 3D cache CPU which isn't the 5900x you demoed. People have every right to ask, "Hey AMD, I put off purchasing X because you showed this CPU coming down the pipe, and now it doesn't exist. What happened?"

Not to defend AMD's position, because I do agree with you on that "swept under the rug" comment, but I have 2 theories as to why this may have happened the way it did:
1.- Milan-X orders. These are basically the same chiplets feeding Milan-X as far as I'm aware, so when AMD looked at how many they were producing vs how many are requesting, they had to make a call. Clearly Milan-X is their golden cow/duck and so I'd imagine the decision was easy to make.
2.- They actually read the room and know people don't want any more overly expensive flagships at stupid prices, so they are going to use the chiplets they can get to instead get them in as many CPUs as possible to both sell more and keep some of the mindshare that AMD is still in the "gaming" fight for the crown. Not entirely impossible, I'd say. Not going to hold my breath over this being the case either. Pricing will definitely let me know if this "benefit of the doubt" has any merit.

There's probably a mix of more reasons, but I think those are reasonable to add and consider.

Regards.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Looking at the news coverage of that June press conference, I'm struggling to see if AMD actually promised a 5900X with 3D VCache. Demonstrating a prototype does not imply that said prototype is going to be released in some form or fashion. I think this is just the press and fanboy hype train creating a reality that wasn't actually promised. Similar to when people somehow believed "until" meant "through"

 

[jpe1701]

Looking at the news coverage of that June press conference, I'm struggling to see if AMD actually promised a 5900X with 3D VCache. Demonstrating a prototype does not imply that said prototype is going to be released in some form or fashion. I think this is just the press and fanboy hype train creating a reality that wasn't actually promised. Similar to when people somehow believed "until" meant "through"

Sounds to me like you are the fanboy if you are defending a company that clearly pulled a bait and switch. I would be almost willing to wager that if it somehow caused any sort of financial harm to the company because they released a different product, that investors could make a case they were misled. Obviously not going to happen but as a consumer that is in the AMD ecosystem I don't think it's unreasonable for the question to be asked.

 

[spongiemaster]

Looking at the news coverage of that June press conference, I'm struggling to see if AMD actually promised a 5900X with 3D VCache. Demonstrating a prototype does not imply that said prototype is going to be released in some form or fashion. I think this is just the press and fanboy hype train creating a reality that wasn't actually promised. Similar to when people somehow believed "until" meant "through"

Here is direct quote from Lisa Su from that presentation:

"We've actually made great progress on the overall development of this technology and we will be able to start production on our highest end products with 3D chiplets by the end of this year."

So, the 5900x was not named directly. However, it's blatantly clear how the press and fanboys assumed there would be at least a 5900x and 5950x version of 3d cache based on the above statement. The "s" on the end of the word "product" indicates more than one. So the 5950x is the highest end product, and the 5900x is the next highest end product. I'd love to hear how the above statement from the CEO of the company was accurately carried out with the just announced 5800x3D with no 5900x or 5950x versions.

She also mentioned 192MB of cache for 12 and 16 core CPU's multiple times. Where are the 192MB cache 12 and 16 core CPU's? If she wasn't talking about the 5900x and 5950x, then please tell us which highest end AMD products with 12 and 16 cores was she talking about?

 

[spongiemaster]

2.- They actually read the room and know people don't want any more overly expensive flagships at stupid prices, so they are going to use the chiplets they can get to instead get them in as many CPUs as possible to both sell more and keep some of the mindshare that AMD is still in the "gaming" fight for the crown. Not entirely impossible, I'd say. Not going to hold my breath over this being the case either. Pricing will definitely let me know if this "benefit of the doubt" has any merit.

It definitely wasn't this one. Anyone tracking the availability of 5000 series CPU since launch, knows that the 2 hardest version to find have been the 5900x and 5950x. It was well into 2021 before you could buy one of the top 2 chips anywhere except ebay and Newegg shuffle.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Here is direct quote from Lisa Su from that presentation:

"We've actually made great progress on the overall development of this technology and we will be able to start production on our highest end products with 3D chiplets by the end of this year."

So, the 5900x was not named directly. However, it's blatantly clear how the press and fanboys assumed there would be at least a 5900x and 5950x version of 3d cache based on the above statement. The "s" on the end of the word "product" indicates more than one. So the 5950x is the highest end product, and the 5900x is the next highest end product. I'd love to hear how the above statement from the CEO of the company was accurately carried out with the just announced 5800x3D with no 5900x or 5950x versions.

She also mentioned 192MB of cache for 12 and 16 core CPU's multiple times. Where are the 192MB cache 12 and 16 core CPU's? If she wasn't talking about the 5900x and 5950x, then please tell us which highest end AMD products with 12 and 16 cores was she talking about?

So that names Epyc, because Ryzen is not their highest end product.

Either way, at the end of the day, unless a product name was actually said, you can't assume any product was actually promised. Hints be damned. Unless Lisa actually said "We'll have a 5900X with 3D 3D VCache available for sale by the end of the year" (or something), there was no obligation for AMD to deliver such a product.

 

[ottonis]

It's notable that the 3D V-Cache technology brings up to 10-15% higher performance in certain scenarios despite appr. 10% lower CPU frequency.
So, if future implementations of 3D cash allowed for no clockspeed penalty, those net processing gains would be in the realm of 20-25%, wich is huge.

This opens up the question whether there will be parallel variants of upcoming Ryzen 7000 CPUs, some of which will be "vanilla" and others with 3D cash, since some applications will certainly benefit more from higher clockspeed and others from larger cashes.
I wonder whether professional audio applications (daw, virtual instruments and effects), which are usually extremely latency sensitive, would benefit from the 3D cash or not.

 

[mitch074]

Forgot about this?

AMD Demos 3D Stacked Ryzen 9 5900X: 192MB of L3 Cache at 2TB/s

When you show a prototype of a 5900x with vcache at your product unveiling along with benchmarks of said prototype, one would naturally assume you're going to release that product:

Then 7 months later you reveal only one 3D cache CPU which isn't the 5900x you demoed. People have every right to ask, "Hey AMD, I put off purchasing X because you showed this CPU coming down the pipe, and now it doesn't exist. What happened?"

Read my reason 1 again. Consider that, with current 7nm yields and production shortages, AMD could create 2 5800X3D for every "5900X3D". What would you rather have ? An almost impossible to find top of the range processor (with an accordingly high price), or a somewhat easy to find good all-rounder - with a price that goes along with it?

 

[Giroro]

The fact that AMD slides show even the less flattering results and ties and not only cherry picked wins, AS INTEL DOES in all their promo slides, this plus the slides in all the other generations before shown by AMD which were correct, tells me they are not lying and I expect as before, the trusted reviews to come in margin of error of them.

Or, maybe there weren't actually enough wins to fill a cherry-picked chart.

 

[Giroro]

AMD's high margin (as a customer, read that as "overpriced") Ryzen 5000 series led to record-OBLITERATING profits. Even in the face of limited supplies and supposedly rising costs.
They keep blaming covid on pricing, yet they continue to make more money than they've ever made before, by a lot. Its just marketing bs.

AMD has a massive amount of headroom to ether increase performance at current pricing, or to simply lower prices. Maybe they will have to go back to enjoying the (still excellent) pre-pandemic profit margins that they enjoyed during the ryzen 3000 era.
Boo hoo. Go look at how quickly the value of their company increased during that generation. I'm not exactly going to cry for their investors and executives having to temporarily settle for making "ridiculously huge amounts of money" as opposed to "all the money in the world".

The only bottom line I care about, is the increasingly worthless money in my rapidly draining wallet. I'm done with panic buying, and I'm tired of being squeezed by selfish sociopaths who are trying to scare me into submission.

 

[Giroro]

There is good reason for only 5800X3D. The price will be between 5900x and 12900KF, so about $550... It is the only slow where this chip is price competative!
It is expensive to make, but it is only marginally faster than 5900x in games. So it can not be much more expensive than 5900x.
5950X3D would cost $1100+ and it would not faster at the games and also not faster than normal 5950x in most tasks, so only 5800X3D makes any sense. 5600X3D at $500+ price would be a hard sell...
As a halo flagship product 5800X3D makes more sense!

Interesting to see if there will be also ZEN4 upgrades later with 3D cache at the higher priced segments after normal Zen4 is released at the end of this year? Or do they release 3d cache version at the same time as normal?
My money is that if Zen4 with out 3D cache is fast enough they only release normal versions. If Intel is faster at the games, AMD will release flagship 3D version at the same time.

The cost to produce a processor actually has very little effect on what they choose to charge.
A 5900x and a 5950x cost exactly the same to produce/package/ship because they are made of the exact same stuff in the exact same way. Just one happens to work better, so they charge a lot more.
Even the cheapest (formerly $50) athlon is still made of nearly the exact same amount of the same "chip stuff" as their top of the line Ryzen, give or take half a thumbnail of fancy sand.

Almost all of the cost of a CPU is in R&D and packaging. The silicon itself is way closer to $40 than to $400.
They don't charge what it costs, they charge whatever arbitrary number people will pay... relative to their sole competitor and the rest of their artificially segmented product stack.

 

[Xajel]

I guess they didn't fully solve the heat issues with 3D stack technology. I find it hard to believe the cache will completely overcome 5-10% lower clocks.

You didn't thought of power consumption, cache does consume power and it must share the same TDP with the CPU, and nothing changed in this regard.

Also, a single SKU, seems like this may be more of a technology demonstrator and marketing move than a part meant for mass consumption. I'd bet these mostly fall into the 'unobtanium' category with both high demand and limited production volume. If you want one, best sign up on pre-order as soon as it hits.

I think it's more related of the target audience (gamers) and the fact that Milan-X shares the same V-Cache & the CPU Chiplet, not to mention that AMD is already preparing to launch Threadripper 5000, which will require more CPU Chiplets as well. So launching Ryzen 9 X3D will mean lower supply for TR5000 and Milan-X.

PS. X3D is just a gap filler for AMD to counter intel and regain the gaming market leadership, just for few months until Zen4 comes. Ryzen 5000 is already competitive enough for them in multitasking, but they need something better in gaming, so the 5800X3D totally makes sense, they won't go above for Ryzen 9 because these mostly targets high-end multitasking (+enthusiast gamers), and they won't go down to Ryzen 5 because it will make the Ryzen 7 & 9 useless for any gamer.

 

[VforV]

Or, maybe there weren't actually enough wins to fill a cherry-picked chart.

Keep telling yourself that, so you can sleep better. HUB's and GN's reviews will prove the opposite.