News AMD vs Intel 2020: Who Makes the Best CPUs?

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M42

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M42, thats not the point though. in stock or not, there are some that are whining about amd charging what they do for the ryzen 5000 series. when intel had the performance advantage, they charged quite a bit for them, no one complained then. most of those that i know that are looking at a cpu upgrade, are waiting till they are in stock, not even considering intel now.

im considering a 5900x ( after i upgrade my strix 1060 ) and i just upgraded to a 3800x in feb/march :)
The difference between the 10900K and 5900x/5950x is really not that great in most games at resolutions greater than 1080p, where the limiting factor is usually the graphics card.

And once Intel releases the 11000-series CPUs with similarly tweaked microcode, I think maybe those AMD 5000-series CPU scalpers might find that they can no longer make a profit on them. Time will tell, but it would be humorous if it happens. I'm definitely waiting for retail CPU prices to return before I will consider buying an AMD 5000 series CPU.
 
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AndrewJacksonZA

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I disagree with the overclocking section, and I would say it's either a tie or a win for AMD.

Just because Intel sets base speeds so much lower than actually achievable speeds so they can slap on a ridiculously low TDP doesn't mean they're better overclockers, it just means Intel wants a low number to mislead people as to their efficiency.

With AMD and Intel having all core boost speeds within a couple hundred megahertz, depending on cooling, of their single core boosts, and with both able to be manually overclocked to or past their all core boost clocks, often using less voltage than the boost voltage, it's pretty even there.
I agree.
 

M42

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Does anyone know the typical all-core max overclock frequency for the AMD 5000 CPUs? A single core can hit 5GHz, but I thought I saw somewhere that the all-core maximum was only 4.3 GHz, but that must be wrong, right? That is lower than its max boost frequency, thus not great overclocking compared to Intel. I have personally seen my friend's Intel 9900KS hit 5.3 GHz on ALL cores with a Noctua cooler. If the AMD's can't hit at least 5GHz on all cores, wouldn't that make it much less overclockable?

If Intel gets their act together and improves the microcode in their 11000-series CPUs then they could regain the single-thread performance lead again.
 

Conahl

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The difference between the 10900K and 5900x/5950x is really not that great in most games at resolutions greater than 1080p, where the limiting factor is usually the graphics card.
people were saying pretty much the SAME things about intel vs ryzen 3000 series.
I have personally seen my friend's Intel 9900KS hit 5.3 GHz on ALL cores with a Noctua cooler
and were you able to tell how much power it was using to get that ? i bet, it is quite a lot. intel's power efficiency goes out the window to hit those speeds.
If Intel gets their act together and improves the microcode in their 11000-series CPUs then they could regain the single-thread performance lead again.
what does microcode have to do with IPC and clock speeds??
 

spongiemaster

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maybe, but NO ONE had many issues paying intel for their chips for the performance they had, did they ?? people crying and whining about what amd is charging for the Ryzen 5000 cpus is getting old, and just plain stupid. give it a rest already. you dont like what amd is charging, then go buy intels cpus.
Uh oh, someone didn't say something 100% positive about AMD, so here comes Conahl dragging a paint can up to a highway overpass to defend AMD's honor, while accusing everyone else of being a fanboy.
 
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Uh oh, someone didn't say something 100% positive about AMD, so here comes Conahl dragging paint can up to a highway overpass to defend AMD's honor, while accusing everyone else of being a fanboy.

I'm trying to etch the scene in my vaults.
the paint can has dust and scratches, screaming metal rim brushing the asphalt. carried by a man that is wearing a holey lousy shirt with tainted spots, in one hand he's holding a 5 inch brush with natural bristles already shedding. looking sideways look out for the cars whizzing by. Whooshes the brush to write a big A, paint trickles down. I can smell the paint, I can see it glitters under sunlight. I like to think it's red, but it must be green. now it smells like grass.
 

Conahl

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Uh oh, someone didn't say something 100% positive about AMD, so here comes Conahl dragging a paint can up to a highway overpass to defend AMD's honor, while accusing everyone else of being a fanboy.
just like you do with intel, right spongiemaster ? hypocrite much ?

and you KNOW its fact. VERY few people cried and whined about what intel charged for its cpu's. but amd raises their prices, and look what happens....
 

M42

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people were saying pretty much the SAME things about intel vs ryzen 3000 series.
My point was why pay over retail for an AMD 5000 CPU right now when Intel CPUs, much cheaper and available now, provide mostly the same game performance above 1080p?
( the same really couldn't be said for AMD 3000 series CPUs)
and were you able to tell how much power it was using to get that ? i bet, it is quite a lot. intel's power efficiency goes out the window to hit those speeds.
So? Even if you put that much power through an AMD 5000 series CPU, apparently it cannot do anywhere near 5.3 ghz on all cores. So, my point stands that AMD is behind in overclocking.
what does microcode have to do with IPC and clock speeds??
Look it up. In later intel cpus the assembly language level machine instructions are composed of microcode, for lack of a better name. Less microcode per assembly language instruction improves IPC.
 
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Conahl

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My point was why pay over retail for an AMD 5000 CPU right now when Intel CPUs, much cheaper and available now
or, if your current cpu is fine for what you do, just wait till things settle down, and are in stock, thats what most of those i know that are looking to upgrade are doing, that and they also would like to upgrade their video card as well, and those are not in stock, amd OR nvidia, so they are going to wait untill they can get the cpu and vidcard. also, some that i know, dont trust intel and all of their security holes, which are much less on amd. from what i can tell, where i am, ryzen 5000 isnt all that much over MSRP, compared to the US prices and the exchange rate.

So? Even if you put that much power through an AMD 5000 series CPU, apparently it cannot do anywhere near 5.3 ghz on all cores
amd doesnt need to go that high, so doesnt need all that power running through it, only intel does to keep any performance it does get :) believe it or not, some, dont like that about intels cpus. maybe, but not everyone OC's their computers.
 

spongiemaster

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just like you do with intel, right spongiemaster ? hypocrite much ?

and you KNOW its fact. VERY few people cried and whined about what intel charged for its cpu's. but amd raises their prices, and look what happens....
It's practically an internet past time for people to complain about Intel pricing. Their HEDT pricing in particular, Intel was universally trashed when they exceeded $1000 on the topend chips. No one has ever called Intel the value leader. It's absolutely absurd to claim people haven't complained about Intel pricing over the years.
 

Conahl

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well, if any one was complaining about intels prices, they were no where near as loud, or as frequent as those that are about amd's pricing now.

No one has ever called Intel the value leader
maybe that is part of the problem, in a lot of minds, amd is still the value brand, and not the performance brand.
 

M42

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or, if your current cpu is fine for what you do, just wait till things settle down, and are in stock, thats what most of those i know that are looking to upgrade are doing, that and they also would like to upgrade their video card as well, and those are not in stock, amd OR nvidia, so they are going to wait untill they can get the cpu and vidcard. also, some that i know, dont trust intel and all of their security holes, which are much less on amd. from what i can tell, where i am, ryzen 5000 isnt all that much over MSRP, compared to the US prices and the exchange rate.


amd doesnt need to go that high, so doesnt need all that power running through it, only intel does to keep any performance it does get :) believe it or not, some, dont like that about intels cpus. maybe, but not everyone OC's their computers.

Let's say while playing a game full steam an AMD CPU uses 65 Watts and an overclocked Intel CPU uses 300 Watts. This amounts to 235 W/h or 0.235 kW/h in extra electricity when using the Intel CPU.
Let's say you play 8 hours a day every day for a year.
The average electricity cost in the USA is $0.13/KW.

For one year that comes to $89.21 extra in electricity. (0.235 kW/h * 8 h * 365 * $0.13). Each month that is only an extra $7.43. Even if you could play 24 hours a day at full CPU utilization, it is only $22/month more.

So, I don't see why you are worried so much about power?

That being said, I think I made at least two points for which I haven't seen a good counter-argument:

1. At the current time, the only quick way to readily get an AMD CPU is to pay way above retail, so I feel that buying an AMD is not a better value than an Intel CPU at this moment (the last week of December 2020).


So, despite Tom's article, I think the value and availability of some of the Intel CPUs is looking pretty darn good. Of course, that will change once AMD scalpers stop asking above retail price.

2. Power requirements aside, AMD is way behind on overclocking capability. I was disappointed to find out that the AMD 5000 series CPUs apparently cannot get all cores clocked simultaneously to their own single-core top boost frequency.

And, frankly, it is sort of amazing that despite the disadvantage of using a 14nm manufacturing process, some of the best Intel CPUs can clock all cores almost 1GHz higher than the all-core maximum for some AMD 5000-series CPUs.

So, saying AMD is a better overclocker seems pretty wrong to me.

Now if Intel follows AMD's lead and can substantially increase IPC in the 11000-series CPUs, it's going to be a wonderful thing for all consumers, as competition will likely breed faster and cheaper CPUs.

(And to be clear, I do not want to see Intel, nor AMD, get crushed by the other. As I just said, I am hoping for competition between them to produce faster and cheaper CPUs. :) )
 
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spongiemaster

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Let's say while playing a game full steam an AMD CPU uses 65 Watts and an overclocked Intel CPU uses 300 Watts. This amounts to 235 W/h or 0.235 kW/h in extra electricity when using the Intel CPU.
Let's say you play 8 hours a day every day for a year.
The average electricity cost in the USA is $0.13/KW.

For one year that comes to $89.21 extra in electricity. (0.235 kW/h * 8 h * 365 * $0.13). Each month that is only an extra $7.43. Even if you could play 24 hours a day at full CPU utilization, it is only $22/month more.

So, I don't see why you are worried so much about power?

This is one of the areas where the AMD crowd continually spreads false information. What a CPU is capable of pulling under worst case scenarios should not be applied for every comparison regardless of situation. There is no game that will come close to pulling 300W even from an overclocked 10900k since no game will 100% utilize 16/20 threads for any period of time, let alone continually whenever running any game. You're not even going to be able to hit 200W.
power-gaming.png


As seen in this chart, a complete system with a 10900K overclocked all core to 5.1Ghz pulls only 46 more watts than a system with a 3900x in gaming.

Adjusting your calculation for a 46 watt difference results in an annual electricity bill difference of $17.46. Also keep in mind, the 10900k will be faster than a 3900x in gaming, so you'll be paying less than $20 a year more for better performance.
 
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Conahl

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M42 first, you are using US figures for power consumption, that is the problem right there. not every one is charged for power based on what the US charges. 2nd, not every one overclocks, so to use that for any argument, is not a very good one 3rd, while you may not care about power usage, there ARE others that do. the counter argument is that there are people that cant wait, and will still buy intel, while there are others, that are willing to wait, which is fine, but " the value and availability of some of the Intel CPUs is looking pretty darn good " is ones own opinion.

And, frankly, it is sort of amazing that despite the disadvantage of using a 14nm manufacturing process, some of the best Intel CPUs can clock all cores almost 1GHz higher than the all-core maximum for some AMD 5000-series CPUs.
considering how much time intel has spent on 14nm, is it really that shocking ? they have squeezed as much out of it as they probably can, and its a good guess, they cant get much more out of it.
what is sort of amazing, is that you seem to be fixed on clock speed, like that is all that matters or is some holy grail of sorts. seems you believe intels marketing over the years :)

This is one of the areas where the AMD crowd continually spreads false information.
and the intel crowd, continually spread the same false info, and usually cherry picks a graph or some other metric to try to prove their point. its known fact that intel draws more power over all. i have seen it on here, AT, and various youtube tech channels, that say the same.
 
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My point was why pay over retail for an AMD 5000 CPU right now when Intel CPUs, much cheaper and available now, provide mostly the same game performance above 1080p?
( the same really couldn't be said for AMD 3000 series CPUs)
Actually yes, at resolutions higher than 1080p, gaming performance has been rather similar between AMD and Intel for years, so long as a sufficient number of threads are available, since we're talking about resolutions that will typically be limited by the graphics card in modern AAA games, not the CPU. Unless perhaps one is seeking a little higher frame rates on a high refresh rate monitor for competitive e-sports titles, the differences between any recent mid-range or better processors will tend to be largely imperceptible. I agree that people shouldn't be paying the significantly marked-up pricing from third-party sellers for Ryzen 5000 processors though.

So? Even if you put that much power through an AMD 5000 series CPU, apparently it cannot do anywhere near 5.3 ghz on all cores. So, my point stands that AMD is behind in overclocking.
The clock rates themselves don't really matter much compared to the actual amount of performance that is available, and the higher IPC of the current Ryzen chips means they can match or often exceed that level of performance at lower clock rates. The Intel processors do have more overclocking headroom, but that simply means that Intel isn't fully utilizing their capabilities out of the box, which is arguably less desirable, but necessary to keep their power levels reasonable. So while those Intel chips do leave more performance on the table, that's not exactly a positive feature, since it would arguably be better if they could get that extra performance without the need for overclocking.

So, I don't see why you are worried so much about power?
If a component ends up drawing an extra hundred dollars or more of electricity over the course of its use, that's certainly relevant in terms of price comparisons. It could mean the difference in being able to move up to the next higher tier of component for the more efficient parts, for example, or putting that money elseware into the system.

And more importantly, higher power draw affects more than just the price paid for the electricity it uses. That extra power translates directly to extra heat being put out by the component. So, one will likely need a larger, more expensive CPU cooler, and in general temperatures inside the case will be higher unless they upgrade the cooling system, and can potentially mean more noise.

Plus, once that extra heat is exhausted from the system, it will warm the room and can have some additional impact on home cooling costs. That could actually be beneficial to one who lives in a cool climate, and doesn't pay to cool their house in the summer. But for someone living in a warmer climate, having additional heat pumped into their room is not going to be ideal, whether its due to increased air conditioning costs, or less comfortable room temperatures.

As seen in this chart, a complete system with a 10900K overclocked all core to 5.1Ghz pulls only 46 more watts than a system with a 3900x in gaming.

Adjusting your calculation for a 46 watt difference results in an annual electricity bill difference of $17.46. Also keep in mind, the 10900k will be faster than a 3900x in gaming, so you'll be paying less than $20 a year more for better performance.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect the maximum difference in power draw to make as much of a difference unless one is doing something like rendering or encoding video all day. But why are you comparing a 10900K against a 3900X for gaming? They don't even have the same core counts, and the extra cores of 10 and 12-core processors are not particularly relevant to today's games, and probably won't be for years to come. A better comparison would be a 5800X compared to a 10700K. That system with a 5800X draws around 364 watts in TechPowerUp's gaming power test, while the 5.1GHz OC 10700K drew 407 watts. That's a similar power difference to what you mentioned, but we are only talking about a 5.1GHz OC there, not the previously suggested 5.3GHz.

There are also a lot of vagaries involved with TechPowerUp's CPU testing methodology that are not outlined in their reviews. Naturally, the results for those full-system measurements will be affected by the use of different motherboards for different processors, and even for the 5800X they still tested with an X570 board, despite the newer B550 models providing a more comparable feature-set to Intel's Z490, while having a more efficient chipset than the PCIe 4.0 one used for X570. So it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. And what resolution are they performing their gaming power test at? The reviews don't seem to specify. And is The Witcher 3 even still a relevant game to be testing CPU power draw with? It's well over 5 years old at this point, and came out at a time when 4-core, 8-thread processors were considered high-end, so thread utilization is probably not comparable to many newer titles. And that's a problem with providing a CPU power test based on a single game. It might be relevant for that game, but could be significantly different in other games utilizing more or fewer threads. As a result, those charts might not be particularly meaningful,
 

AndrewJacksonZA

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So, my point stands that AMD is behind in overclocking.
Wanna help me overclock an Intel CPU that's not a "K" model? Any model. Let's start with the i7-6700 that I'm running? After that, will you help me overclock a not-priced-crazily-and-not-top-of-the-range AMD CPU? Then we can see which one overclocks better.
 

spongiemaster

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and the intel crowd, continually spread the same false info, and usually cherry picks a graph or some other metric to try to prove their point. its known fact that intel draws more power over all. i have seen it on here, AT, and various youtube tech channels, that say the same.
Cherry picked? OK, provide a link to any review site showing power draw close to 300W while playing a game for a 10 series Intel CPU.
 

spongiemaster

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Yeah, I wouldn't expect the maximum difference in power draw to make as much of a difference unless one is doing something like rendering or encoding video all day. But why are you comparing a 10900K against a 3900X for gaming? They don't even have the same core counts, and the extra cores of 10 and 12-core processors are not particularly relevant to today's games, and probably won't be for years to come. A better comparison would be a 5800X compared to a 10700K. That system with a 5800X draws around 364 watts in TechPowerUp's gaming power test, while the 5.1GHz OC 10700K drew 407 watts. That's a similar power difference to what you mentioned, but we are only talking about a 5.1GHz OC there, not the previously suggested 5.3GHz.
In the world of Intel bashing, the only CPU that exists for power draw numbers is currently the 10900k. The always quoted 300W power draw is not possible under any circumstances with a 10600K. So if you pick anything but a 10900k for your comparison, it's immediately ignored and dragged back to the 10900k, so might as well start there. There is no 10 core AMD CPU, so not sure how you expect me to use one for a comparison. The extra cores on the 3900x won't help in gaming, but the higher clock speeds compared to the 3800x will. If the 3900x was faster than the 10900k, I wouldn't choose it, as you would naturally accept using more power for more performance. Since 3900x is slower than a 10900k, it doesn't make sense picking the 3800x which is even slower than the 3900x, you're basically comparing best performance tested for each side.

I haven't seen any gaming power draw numbers at 5.3Ghz. Is all core 5.3Ghz even an attainable overclock for every CM-L CPU? At 5.1Ghz, a 10900k is already faster than any non 5000 series AMD CPU, however pushing it up to 5.3 is certainly not going to increase power draw by 190W to make up the difference between 46W and 235W that M42 used for his calculation.
 

M42

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The clock rates themselves don't really matter much compared to the actual amount of performance that is available, and the higher IPC of the current Ryzen chips means they can match or often exceed that level of performance at lower clock rates. The Intel processors do have more overclocking headroom, but that simply means that Intel isn't fully utilizing their capabilities out of the box, which is arguably less desirable, but necessary to keep their power levels reasonable. So while those Intel chips do leave more performance on the table, that's not exactly a positive feature, since it would arguably be better if they could get that extra performance without the need for overclocking.
I think you totally missed my point! How can clock rates not matter when the topic is overclocking prowess? :) The fact is AMD CPUs seem to be inferior overclockers compared to Intel's.

As for performance per clock cycle, if one believes the benchmarking rumors, it looks like intel is working on improving that now for the 11000-series CPUs. For the sake of competition, let's hope they do!
 

M42

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Wanna help me overclock an Intel CPU that's not a "K" model? Any model. Let's start with the i7-6700 that I'm running? After that, will you help me overclock a not-priced-crazily-and-not-top-of-the-range AMD CPU? Then we can see which one overclocks better.
What's your point? Here is what I wrote previously:

> some of the best Intel CPUs can clock all cores almost 1GHz higher than the all-core maximum for some AMD 5000-series CPUs.

I don't think a 5-year old i7-6700 counts as one of Intel's best CPUs. :)
 

M42

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considering how much time intel has spent on 14nm, is it really that shocking ? they have squeezed as much out of it as they probably can, and its a good guess, they cant get much more out of it.
what is sort of amazing, is that you seem to be fixed on clock speed, like that is all that matters or is some holy grail of sorts. seems you believe intels marketing over the years :)
Yes, the 14nm process is performing spectacularly for what it is. And refactoring the microcode to improve IPC looks like the next step if you can believe the benchmarks. The 11000-series CPUs seem to be getting the same 20+% improvement in performance that the AMD 5000 series CPUs have enjoyed. It may be that until AMD did it, no one at Intel wanted to attempt improving the microcode for fear of "breaking" the CPU instruction set. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.
 

M42

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Everything except Intel's most expensive SKUs are locked. On AMD, that's not the case. I mentioned my i7-6700 because it's locked.

Intel backported the architecture, they're not keeping the same architecture and tweaking the microcode.

The i7-6700 is 5 years old now and although you may be able to find one rare new CPU somewhere, they are neither readily available nor representative of Intel's current best.

In regards to AMD CPUs being unlocked, what difference does that make when none of them can even reach their max-boost frequency on all cores? Almost by definition, they have to be underclocked when all cores are in use.

Modern (unlocked) Intel CPUs you can almost always get at least all cores to the max boost frequency, and then some. In terms of overclocking, AMD is still way behind.

And why would you think Intel cannot pay special attention to improving the efficiency of the microcode to increase IPC?
 

AndrewJacksonZA

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The i7-6700 is 5 years old now and...

Modern (unlocked) Intel CPUs...
You

Are

Missing

My

Point

En

Tire

Ly.
------------------------------

Please answer these questions:
  1. How many CPUs are there in Intel's current, most up-to-date line-up?
  2. How many of those can be overclocked by the user, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage?
  3. In terms of Intel's cost stack, where do those CPUs lie?
  4. How many CPUs are there in AMD's current, most up-to-date line-up?
  5. How many of those can be overclocked by the user, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage?
  6. In terms of AMD's cost stack, where do those CPUs lie?
 
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M42

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Please answer these questions:
  1. How many CPUs are there in Intel's current, most up-to-date line-up?
  2. How many of those can be overclocked by the user, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage?
  3. In terms of Intel's cost stack, where do those CPUs lie?
  4. How many CPUs are there in AMD's current, most up-to-date line-up?
  5. How many of those can be overclocked by the user, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage?
  6. In terms of AMD's cost stack, where do those CPUs lie?

I have no idea what the CPU sales counts are. The fact that Intel chooses to lock some CPUs is probably a marketing decision, not a technical decision.

And I believe the intent of the article's "overclockable" comparison is to compare unlocked CPUs. What would be the point of comparing locked CPUs? It's not like we customers don't have a choice. We can purposely choose to purchase an unlocked CPU if we want (or not).

So let's talk best current unlocked AMD CPUs vs best current Intel unlocked CPUs because the article's title does have "2020" in it , right? Picking a five-year-old i7-6700 is rather irrelevant for this comparison. BTW, one of my older computers has a nice i7-6700k that overclocks very well!

1. Apparently there is very little overclocking headroom in any of the current AMD CPU lineup. To run all-core at the same clock rate requires even the best AMD CPUs have to be underclocked relative to maximum boost speed.

2. The best current Intel CPUs can usually run all cores near to or faster than their max boost speed.

Please note that I am not trying to bring AMD's great accomplishments down. I'm just trying to state the facts in this one comparison point of the article.
 
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