Any AGP DX10 news ???

[piratepast40]

As this thread progresses (or digresses - depending on your point of view), I've noticed an unasked question. How much of a card will it really take to run DX10? We've all been hearing about the monster high end cards but what about mid range cards? It doesn't make sense to me that all the OEM computer suppliers will have high end cards in all the machines just so DX10 will work.

If this is a totally dumb question, feel free to hand me my dunce cap and tell me to go sit in the corner (again) :?

 

[rodney_ws]

As this thread progresses (or digresses - depending on your point of view), I've noticed an unasked question. How much of a card will it really take to run DX10? We've all been hearing about the monster high end cards but what about mid range cards? It doesn't make sense to me that all the OEM computer suppliers will have high end cards in all the machines just so DX10 will work.

If this is a totally dumb question, feel free to hand me my dunce cap and tell me to go sit in the corner (again) :?

No, no dunce cap for that one... it's a good question to ponder... especially considering all we've seen so far is the 8800 series. Can you imagine how pissed someone will be if they get an 8600 series card and can't play Crysis worth a crap?

 

[SuperFly03]

Looking at it completely from a business perspective, it would make sense for there to be an AGP DX10 offering. Without going into the whole tech. argument (i.e. your old CPU will bottleneck the new card), it would allow older (but powerful) AGP systems to last a little longer - I know my 3.75GHz P4 system would like one!
Another thing, guess what? NVidia and ATi like to make money. AGP variants of the X1950 Pro and 7800GT have been practically flying off the shelves and nVidia and ATi know that. If there's a good chance people will buy them, they'll be made.

The question is at what cost... just because they could sell doesn't mean that they could sell enough to make money. An individual card sold for a markup of $20 isn't a profit inherently, you have 1000 other costs to think of, and cover, before you can call it a profit. That being said, there companies who operate loss leading divisions in order to keep in favor with customers.

Microsoft and Sony both sell their consoles at losses because
1) They know customers have certain price points
2) Market penetration
3) They make their money else where

So it is theoretically possible for Nvidia/AMD to make and sell these cards, but there may be no profit in it, just the hope that when you actually move to PCI-e you remember their brand and the fact they gave you DX10 AGP.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

About 90% of the questions of this forum can be solved by google. Sometimes it is easier (and preferable) to ask someone who knows more. Isn't that the idea behind this community?

If the goal is true dicovery, which was not the case with the OP, and second, which of any of you have provided what Google doesn't have on the front page?

I made no attempt to fudge the numbers. I take offense to the comment and can assure you that I will never use this forum to misinform. You and I are in agreement about the price differential (within $12). More importantly back to the point.

Well then post the best available price, like I said whether it was ignorance or a willful act those numbers are biased. Also the point was that the price differential of AGP and PCIe when actually making the effort to look, is equal to the cost of the MoBo to support the current CPUs someone has baring the truely old Athlons and P4s.

You and others in typical "forum bully" fashion rather than address the topic have decided to debate the logic in upgrading an agp system to dx10.

No, I told him to wait, it's when the AGP crowd replied that I switched to dispelling the myths that they and the OP work under. And considering the previous thread in wich the OP spamed that lead to this one, I feel fully justified in crapping all over it. That you want to be pulled into his fold by your ignorance is your call.

I simply pointed out a scenario where a system like my opteron 175 is a logical candidate for one more agp GPU upgrade on the basis that it carries a 38-50 dollar penalty.

Except that you are basing it on current prices of last year's gear, in a thread about the future of a potentially never to be release product, or at least one that is a long way off, with no idea of the impact. And even with your situation and the X1950Pro

Tell me why an opteron 175 would not benefit from one more graphics upgrade and why if upgrading to a new card it should not be dx10.

Simple, 3 things, first, show me where either ATi or nV have said that there will be a DX10 AGP card anytime soon; then show me the benchies that say it's worthwhile an isn't severly crippled compared to it's PCIe counterparts; and last but not least, show me where you think the performance of this card is going to be significantly better than the X1950Pro at even close to the price other than to have a DX10 slide show like I already said.

Until you or anyone else can show those 3 things, history shows it's not the path to rely on, and the sooner you prepare for the best options the better. We don't even need to talk about the tangents like physics, but for anyone talking about their primary rig and not a secondary rig that's a concern.

Now to you, tell me why your rig that is not your gaming rig needs DX10, and not just an X1950 or even X1650/GF7600.

 

[Dr_asik]

As flexible as I would think, which is more than simply sticking with AGP alone, and if not sticking with AGP at all, then you move out from under tha rock and can get whatever modern PCIe MoBo you want without that limitation, right? My suggestion for that is for those who need the flexability of options, not the absolute killer rig/fps, those people already moved to PCIe long ago when they wanted a GF7 or X1K series.

Well the best GPU you’ll want to have on a PCI-E 4X board is an X1950XTX, while on AGP the limit is X1950Pro. So where’s the added flexibility exactly? Because it’s a C2D board? I don’t call being forced to upgrade to C2D « flexibility ».

But let’s do some calculations.

Scenario 1 "Crappy old CPU you want to kill": P4 2.4Ghz with something between a FX5200 and a 9700Pro. If the guy wants to play Crysis, upgrading just the video will probably not cut it, so basically if he’s doing a small 200$ upgrade it’s not for Crysis, it’s for Oblivion, or C&C3, and for these games the upgrade will make them very playable.

A) Say he gets an X1950Pro, that’s 210$ (not counting mail-in rebate).

B) Say he wants to get rid of that P4 and move to PCI-Express. So he gets a « flexible » and cheap C2D mobo, an E4300, and then an X1950Pro PCI-Express .

Despite what newegg writes the board has only a PCI-Express 4X slot, so it’s not like you would keep it for the next upgrade. You’ll still have to change the motherboard for a video card faster than the X1950 series.

So that comes out at 400$ flush. If you can do better please show me.

Is it that much faster? The CPU is a lot better, but it won’t overclock much because of DDR400 RAM, which is where the budget C2Ds shine, and if you want to overclock it you’ll have to move to DDR2 RAM and that’s another what, 120$ premium at least.

So in the end whether spending twice as much money on that upgrade is worth it is not as clear as you would have it, IMO it’s a bad move considering you won’t even use that new board for the next upgrade and you can’t OC the E4300 to its real potential. All you get really over the AGP upgrade is a faster CPU for 180$. It’s a fair deal, but by no means necessary. If you’re not into Crysis, that is. And no, not everyone’s into Crysis. If you’re planning for Crysis, better prepare to spend much more than 200$ to upgrade your dinosaur, that’s evident.

Ok scenario 2, "Half-decent CPU not going to be killed just yet".

Athlon 3500+ S939, DDR400 RAM, AGP mobo. with again some aging GPU. I’ve showed you the price difference between the AGP and PCI-Express version of the X1950PRO is 58$ (more than I estimated, I admit). The cheapest S939 and PCI-Express mobo I can find on Newegg is 60$, it looks crappy, and then the next one is 80$, after that it’s 119$.

A) So AGP card alone = 220$
B) PCI-Express card (162$) + cheapest new mobo (60$) = 222$.

Same price. Ok you’ve switched to PCI-Express, woohoo! Maybe you ditched your old high-quality mobo in the process for a cheap one, but that doesn’t matter. You will not keep this new mobo for when you’ll have to upgrade to CPU because S939 is dying already, and you have already one of the decent CPUs of S939. So what was the point really? Because 2 is better than 1? It’s just more trouble and potential problems swapping mobos.

So your « upgrade path » value is a myth in these two scenarios. A PCI-Express S939 board is not an upgrade path (nor is AM2), and the DUAL-VSTA boards are not either. The only real « flexible » option is to invest in a motherboard that’s not cheap, like a GA-965P-S3, a new CPU, new GPU and a 2GB of RAM, which totals at least 500$. Then you'll have option of buying a better CPU on that socket when they come out, a better GPU on PCI-Express when they come out, etc.

Have other scenarios? That pretty much sums it up I think. I made my point.

As for the Canadian price difference between AGP and PCI-Express X1950Pro, check out
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10530BD9068
http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=12030BD8095
These are the cheapest I know of.

Even a solid AMD64+MoBo+X1950P is only ~$100 more than that AGP X1950Pro

Back that up. And even in that case, as I said, are you realistically going to keep your AMD64 for the next upgrade, which will probably include something in the line of the X2K, or better? I don't think so, you'll want to upgrade the CPU also. And so the "flexibility" vanishes. All you did is swap mobos for the X1950Pro, it ends there.

I just hate the fanatics, just like the religious fanatics, or any other Fanboi. And the OP is definitely a fanatic, just read his post in the Supreme Commander thread, he thinks anyone recommending a CPU upgrade for that game instead of telling the guy to upgrade his perfectly good R9800Pro is doing so because we have stock or family in intel.

I agree, but Supreme Commander is one game, there are many including older games that won't play well because of a crappy GPU and a simple video card upgrade in AGP can do a lot of good to these systems, even if you're not stretching for an X1950Pro. I know for one thing that the games I play today (like Stalker) thank me every day for going to X800XL. As I said I doubt the DX10 AGP cards will have a large market because at some point the old CPUs can't catch up, but in the case of the X1950Pro I think we've not crossed that line yet, at least in most of the games you can play today.

 

[cleeve]

A) So AGP card alone = 220$
B) PCI-Express card (162$) + cheapest new mobo (60$) = 222$

I don't want to step on anyones toes, but I respectfully would like to point out the following.
There are a couple factors in this scenario that make the PCIe/939 solution a bit more attractive, to me anyway:

1. If you have a PCIe X1950 PRO, it is concievable that you can migrate it along with you to a PCIe platform in the future. With the AGP card, you're forced to buy a new card when the inevitable PCIe upgrade comes.

2. Buying the new mobo/cpu combo means the old one can be sold. So the $222 is decreased by, say, at least $50 the upgrader could get for his old mobo/cpu on ebay.

3. While 939 isn't in it's prime, there are still some dual-core higher end CPUs to upgrade to in the future.


The biggest downside to this upgrade path is that the guy would have to reinstall windows and all his programs to really get it to work properly, IMHO.
With the AGP X1950 PRO, it would certainly be painless from a work standpoint.

 

[No1sFanboy]

About 90% of the questions of this forum can be solved by google. Sometimes it is easier (and preferable) to ask someone who knows more. Isn't that the idea behind this community?

If the goal is true dicovery, which was not the case with the OP, and second, which of any of you have provided what Google doesn't have on the front page?

I made no attempt to fudge the numbers. I take offense to the comment and can assure you that I will never use this forum to misinform. You and I are in agreement about the price differential (within $12). More importantly back to the point.

Well then post the best available price, like I said whether it was ignorance or a willful act those numbers are biased. Also the point was that the price differential of AGP and PCIe when actually making the effort to look, is equal to the cost of the MoBo to support the current CPUs someone has baring the truely old Athlons and P4s.

You and others in typical "forum bully" fashion rather than address the topic have decided to debate the logic in upgrading an agp system to dx10.

No, I told him to wait, it's when the AGP crowd replied that I switched to dispelling the myths that they and the OP work under. And considering the previous thread in wich the OP spamed that lead to this one, I feel fully justified in crapping all over it. That you want to be pulled into his fold by your ignorance is your call.

I simply pointed out a scenario where a system like my opteron 175 is a logical candidate for one more agp GPU upgrade on the basis that it carries a 38-50 dollar penalty.

Except that you are basing it on current prices of last year's gear, in a thread about the future of a potentially never to be release product, or at least one that is a long way off, with no idea of the impact. And even with your situation and the X1950Pro

Tell me why an opteron 175 would not benefit from one more graphics upgrade and why if upgrading to a new card it should not be dx10.

Simple, 3 things, first, show me where either ATi or nV have said that there will be a DX10 AGP card anytime soon; then show me the benchies that say it's worthwhile an isn't severly crippled compared to it's PCIe counterparts; and last but not least, show me where you think the performance of this card is going to be significantly better than the X1950Pro at even close to the price other than to have a DX10 slide show like I already said.

Until you or anyone else can show those 3 things, history shows it's not the path to rely on, and the sooner you prepare for the best options the better. We don't even need to talk about the tangents like physics, but for anyone talking about their primary rig and not a secondary rig that's a concern.

Now to you, tell me why your rig that is not your gaming rig needs DX10, and not just an X1950 or even X1650/GF7600.

OK, so you have:
-Decided the OP didn't actually want to discuss AGP dx10 news contrary to the title.
-Decided to crap in his thread because he wasn't brought to light by you in another thread.
-Have estimated from afar my knowledge to ignorance ratio.
-Picked apart and dissected any contrary points of views.
-And have asked me to back up my POV with benchmarks from the future.

You have not:
Discussed the topic in the header.


In an attempt to put this back on track there is no confirmation or denial re. DX10 agp cards directly from Nvidia or ATI that I can find. While searching this topic it is funny how all roads lead to the Inquirer. Even Wikipedia cites their source as the Inquirer when they state that their will be Nvidia g80 DX10 AGP cards. Wikipedia

Anyhow here is a brief summary of what I can find out their that relates to any "DX10 AGP news".

Product manager Jeff Fu saud the firm "will not abandon AGP users".

We asked about the continuing contraction of the AGP market, but were told that the demand for AGP is still very strong. In fact, AGP accounts for the lion's share of some markets.

So for those users that want a AGP perfromance part this company will offer DirectX 10 boards based on RV610 and RV630

Source-Inquirer

Confirmed by Tech Power Up:

Product manager Jeff Fu said the firm "will not abandon AGP users".

GECUBE also proudly announced what will make many AGP users very happy: AGP DX10.

source-Tech Power Up

The Inquirer also reported that Nvidia would do AGP dx10:

The AGP version is possible due to the fact that G84 chips are pin-to-pin compatible with Geforce 6600 and 7600, so there were no modifications required in order that AGP market gets its DirectX 10 card.

Source-Inquirer

The exact opposite was reported by Vr-zone.

According to our sources, there will not be any AGP versions for GeForce 8 series because simply it can't support. Therefore all DX10 G80, G84 and G86 cards will be PCI Express based.

Source-Vr-zone

 

[pseudopeon]

...just because they could sell doesn't mean that they could sell enough to make money.

Just at nVidia's GX2 card, what a lemon that was :roll:
It was an innovative idea and quad SLi was a great marketing spin, but how many do you think they actually sold/sell?
I know of one case when a customer bought a quad SLi system the day before the initial 8800 launch, talk about a lack of foresight :lol:

 

[SuperFly03]

No offense.... but the inquirer is one of the most unreliable sources of information. :?

 

[cleeve]

The exact opposite was reported by Vr-zone.

According to our sources, there will not be any AGP versions for GeForce 8 series because simply it can't support. Therefore all DX10 G80, G84 and G86 cards will be PCI Express based.

Source-Vr-zone


I'd just like to step in here and say that this quote from VR zone seems based on a severely flawed presumption.

There are tons of AGP cards out RIGHT NOW that use chipsets that don't natively support AGP. The X1950 PROs, the 7600's... hell, I believe every 6600... none of these GPUs support AGP natively, but they can all do it through a bridge chip.

Why couldn't a Dx10 PCIe card use a bridge chip to AGP? I think the vr-zone is likely incorrect on this one...

 

[pseudopeon]

Why couldn't a Dx10 PCIe card use a bridge chip to AGP?

Because the 8x00 series card use a unified shader architecture and would require some sort of revised bridge-chip? Still not too taxing I would wager.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I started typing out a long reply, but I'll cut alot out, just to focus.

Well the best GPU you’ll want to have on a PCI-E 4X board is an X1950XTX, while on AGP the limit is X1950Pro. So where’s the added flexibility exactly? Because it’s a C2D board? I don’t call being forced to upgrade to C2D « flexibility ».

The VSTA is only required if someone is KEEPING their OLD AGP, like in the other thread, where the R9800 staying and the CPU going was the better option for Supreme commander. Anyone upgrading without keeping their old AGP doesn't have the same limits.

Scenario 1...
So that comes out at 400$ flush. If you can do better please show me.

Your scenario is flawed the VSTA isn't needed for a complete PCIe switch only for an AGP keep, which is not what I'm advocating for a scenario like that. Many options available for just keeping the CPU, RAM, and moving to PCIe, that scenario is lopsided, even for keeping a terrible P4.

Ok scenario 2, "Half-decent CPU not going to be killed just yet".

The cheapest S939 [/url]and PCI-Express mobo I can find on Newegg is 60$, it looks crappy, and then the next one is 80$, after that it’s 119$.

Actually the next is under $60, the next is under $60, and so on, for 5-6 options under $60. Let's be realistic about the fact that it's not jsut one option. And there are other options, there was even better otpions before when everyone was making their AGP->PCIetransition, that late comers have less choice now, but still better than buying overpriced AGP. Check more prices. Good source to come.

So your « upgrade path » value is a myth in these two scenarios.

No you just can't see beyond your own choices. You limit them to only that's available to AGP, that's stacking the deck. You also only compare the PCIe that are also AGP, not the better options. BTW, still no AGP option equal to the GF8, nor is there one on the horizon, unless someone has finally posted some 'news'.

Even a solid AMD64+MoBo+X1950P is only ~$100 more than that AGP X1950Pro

Back that up.

http://www.pricewatch.com/motherboard_combos/
I was generous picking the Combo that were worthy of gaming, I could've cheaped out, but I didn't. Like NOS you guys are really restricting the playing field to make your futile attempt to sell AGP. Which to me shows the weakness of your solutions.

I agree, but Supreme Commander is one game, there are many including older games that won't play well because of a crappy GPU and a simple video card upgrade in AGP can do a lot of good to these systems, even if you're not stretching for an X1950Pro.

And you are missing why it was mentioned. You show me a non-CPU stressful upcoming DX10 title worth the upgrade. The 4 I can think of all are going to or already do kill CPUs. Crysis, UT3, Halo2PC and the currently shipping FSX with the DX10 patch upgrade already in testing pre-beta. What's this low CPU useage DX10 game we're talking about here, I'd love to see it, and why it's worth the wait for DX10 AGP card.

My use of Supreme commander was for a specific scneraio, which the OP spammed that thread (hendce my initial reply before others got involved with the replace everything BS); and it illustrates the future of games, we're not talking about people upgrading here in order to play Quake3 or UT2K3, we're talking about current and future games.

Once again, show me something more poignant as to why AGP is better choice than just laziness of cleaning out the bit rot on your system, because the AGP is the final nail in the coffin of any system, and like I said the only ones that deservethat are the P4s and Socket As, and what you've done then is ensure any replacement of those requires a graphics card replacement or being forced into those limited boards again. Neither is a choice for anyone who's a gamer.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

OK, so you have:
-Decided the OP didn't actually want to discuss AGP dx10 news contrary to the title.

Yep, because I've read his previous posts on the subject.

-Decided to crap in his thread because he wasn't brought to light by you in another thread.

Nope, has nothing to do with me changing his mind, he crapped in someone else's thread, accusing people of being re-sellers with ulterior motives.

-Have estimated from afar my knowledge to ignorance ratio.

No, have decided you're either ignorant, or you were posting willfully misleading numbers, either way that's indisputable, it's either or scenario.
I'm ignorant of alot of things, I admit, but you must admit your numbers are way out of line for this discussion. Canadian pricing isn't a good guage of any upgrade except for our small market, just like UK and AUS prices are equally hooped.

-Picked apart and dissected any contrary points of views.

Only those that mislabel the situation.

-And have asked me to back up my POV with benchmarks from the future.

Sure why not? That's what you're basing your recommendation on. I can post reliable information about CURRENT DX10 products, and even future products. Do you even have a picture of these DX10 AGP cards?

You have not:
Discussed the topic in the header.

Yeah I did, I said, wait, and then www.google.com
both of which are better contributions that yours. do you have something more to contribute that's actually factual?

In an attempt to put this back on track there is no confirmation or denial re. DX10 agp cards directly from Nvidia or ATI that I can find.

Exactly, so.... NO NEWS !! Thanks for confirming that.

While searching this topic it is funny how all roads lead to the Inquirer. Even Wikipedia cites their source as the Inquirer when they state that their will be Nvidia g80 DX10 AGP cards. Wikipedia

Did you read the follow up rumour?
http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=4704
My rumour trumps your rumour, until you show me the picture of an actual card or driver. BTW, your link at the end of your post no work because you cut and past without looking. Nice job, quality work. :tongue:

As for the rest it's simply based on GeCube's comments about the X1950XT, not DX10 cards, and the only thing related he said is that if there is enough demand they may really a card.

Like I said, got something to add? Then Do it, but otherwise you have conflicting rumours, none of which have substance.

And like I said, I don't doubt eventually there will be DX10 cards, but it's going to be a long wait for the very reasons I already listed.

 

[No1sFanboy]

Ape, I seriously don't recall having wronged you in the past but you are intent on trying to pick apart anything I say. If I were wiser I'd move on but I'm in the mood to kick it back at you.

Nope, has nothing to do with me changing his mind, he crapped in someone else's thread, accusing people of being re-sellers with ulterior motives.

I've not read that thread but if it is the case does this require you to forum stock him?

No, have decided you're either ignorant, or you were posting willfully misleading numbers, either way that's indisputable, it's either or scenario.
I'm ignorant of alot of things, I admit, but you must admit your numbers are way out of line for this discussion. Canadian pricing isn't a good guage of any upgrade except for our small market, just like UK and AUS prices are equally hooped.

I did a quick search to compare prices and came up with $38.00usd. You came up with $50. For this you continually accuse me of trying to bias the numbers. If I give you the 12 bucks well you get over it?

Did you read the follow up rumour?
http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=4704
My rumour trumps your rumour, until you show me the picture of an actual card or driver. BTW, your link at the end of your post no work because you cut and past without looking. Nice job, quality work.

Actually I just checked and the link did work and actually links to the same thing you are linking to. I suppose by linking to opposing points of views I was still showing bias.
I would also recommend if you are going to try and cut someone up for a lack of QC in their post you shouldn't lead up with this sentence:

BTW, your link at the end of your post no work because you cut and past without looking.

Yeah I did, I said, wait, and then www.google.com
both of which are better contributions that yours. do you have something more to contribute that's actually factual?

I simply in the spirit of staying on topic linked to the little bit of information that I could find re. the topic. Most other hits led back to the same two stories from the Inquirer. I do not speak to it's accuracy. I will be sure to let you know as soon as the NY Times does some coverage on this topic.

Now dissect away, until I can add to the topic "Any
AGP DX10 news ???" , I will stay out of this thread. If you strongly feel the need to banter back and forth why not PM me and save the rest of the community from this useless banter.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Because the 8x00 series card use a unified shader architecture and would require some sort of revised bridge-chip? Still not too taxing I would wager.

And that was my read on it too. The HSI bridge is likely the barrier.
Also the question of host communications is still an unknown, I want to see that test once we have truely optimized DX10 app/games.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I've not read that thread but if it is the case does this require you to forum stock him?

I didn't forum stalk him.
My only post to him was that in the first reply. Has nothing to do with stalking him. Everything else came from the defences of AGP by distorting the facts against PCIe. There are rare case that APG is a great upgrade, but when putting that in DX10 context those fly out the window.

I did a quick search to compare prices and came up with $38.00usd. You came up with $50. For this you continually accuse me of trying to bias the numbers. If I give you the 12 bucks well you get over it?/quote]

I don't need $12. Just concede it's the price of the barrier MoBo that we're talking about, it's nothing more than that. All the arguements sofar against PCIe or inflated; 'you must by a new CPU, RAM, PSU, etc' arguments that have no weight went exposed to the lightof day. I don't defend the $100 number, nor do I say the cheap MoBos are high quality, but we're talking about equally crappy options on the surface with at least a known future for one and unknown for the other.

I would also recommend if you are going to try and cut someone up for a lack of QC in their post you shouldn't lead up with this sentence:

For the 'no work'? like the AGP GF8 series no gonna work?
The link wasn't working before, I don't know if you edited it in the time I took to reply, but I'll concede that if you didn't.
But still it simply shows, no news, just more rumours.

I simply in the spirit of staying on topic linked to the little bit of information that I could find re. the topic. Most other hits led back to the same two stories from the Inquirer. I do not speak to it's accuracy. I will be sure to let you know as soon as the NY Times does some coverage on this topic.

Hey no problemo, as long as there's something more than 2 rumours, and what appears to be people taking GeCube's comments totally out of context, works for me. With everyone talking about how there WILL be DX10 AGP, if anyone wants DX10 there is currently 1 solution and currently only pictures and hard info of PCIe solutions. As for the NY Time, seriously dude, upgrade, Wall Steet Journal - Mossberg, nothing less wil do.

If you strongly feel the need to banter back and forth why not PM me and save the rest of the community from this useless banter.

Because like everything else I replied to in this thread it's the mis-characterisations that I'm replying to.

If most people followed your new found position of not posting until there was actual news, this would be a pretty short thread now wouldn't it?

 

[choirbass]

it does seem that the OP is more strapped for cash... which is the first problem right away, hes wanting to get a major upgrade, and trying to save cash at the same time... if he wants to do that, he should get a decent AGP DX9 gpu for ~$100, that will play all his games most likely better than what he has currently... ...all while saving up for a more substantial purchase. and when he has enough cash, to then sell what he currently has, and put that now additional income towards a more substantial upgrade... ...a low performing DX10 gpu, that will most likely sell for a premium because its the 'new thing' (and being installed in a lower performing system even), isnt going to make for much except for an overall low quality DX10 gaming experience. just buy a temporary DX9 gpu to hold you over for awhile, and save where you can.

 

[Dr_asik]

Hi Ape,

The VSTA is only required if someone is KEEPING their OLD AGP, like in the other thread, where the R9800 staying and the CPU going was the better option for Supreme commander. Anyone upgrading without keeping their old AGP doesn't have the same limits.

You forget about DDR RAM, which is the one reason I chose the VSTA board. 2GB of new RAM is at least 115$.

Your scenario is flawed the VSTA isn't needed for a complete PCIe switch only for an AGP keep, which is not what I'm advocating for a scenario like that. Many options available for just keeping the CPU, RAM, and moving to PCIe, that scenario is lopsided, even for keeping a terrible P4.

Why would you want to move to PCIe with a terrible P4? And didn't you say earlier "For the added cost of the GF7800GS when it came out, (...), you can buy an S939 or LGA775 MoBo that supports both PCIe and AGP" So what's your point exactly? You want to keep what, the GPU, the RAM? Are you going to run Crysis with a 9800Pro? Are you going to run Supreme Commander with your P4? What is it you want to keep and what is the "flexibility" you're talking about? You're not going to run the future titles with any of your old system parts: your motherboard's outdated because of AGP and old socket; your CPU won't cut it; your GPU won't cut it. There's no "flexibility" in keeping the older parts, you're just making awkward compromises that will translate into little real-world performance for the trouble and money. From what I can see the flexibility consists of a full system upgrade instead of only GPU, which is justified if you're preparing for Crysis, but not if you just want to give be able to play Oblivion and are stuck with a 9500Pro.

I am talking about balance. An AMD 3500+ paired with a 9600SE can reveal a lot of potential with a 7600GT or X1950Pro, still keeping the rest of the system. It's not wasted because you're simply getting the most out of your system for as little money as possible.

And I'm not talking about playing Crysis and the future DX10, it's EVIDENT that for that generation you'll want a high-end X2 at least, probably a C2D. Wanna play the latest titles, your old rig's not gonna cut it. I'm not saying stick a high-end AGP card in your old system and you'll be fine for Crysis, no, I'm saying a P4's better paired with a 7600GT and an AMD64 3500+ is better paired with an X1950Pro, and if you're stuck with a crappy GPU in those systems, the new card is a fine upgrade for most DX9 titles including the latest like C&C3 and Oblivion.

Did I advocate DX10 cards? Read my post carefully and you'll see no. I'm responding to your comment "For the added cost of the GF7800GS when it came out, the GF7600GT-AGP when it came out, the premium of the X1950Pro AGP over it's PCIe counterpart, you can buy an S939 or LGA775 MoBo that supports both PCIe and AGP, and lets you keep the old DDR RAM, while giving you an upgrade path to future products at launch. " What's the point exactly? It boils to either you have the money to change mobo/CPU/GPU and your goal is to have a good system for the next DX10 titles, either you're on a little budget and want to get the most out of your current system for the current and previous DX9 titles.

===========================

Hi Cleeve,

1. If you have a PCIe X1950 PRO, it is concievable that you can migrate it along with you to a PCIe platform in the future. With the AGP card, you're forced to buy a new card when the inevitable PCIe upgrade comes.

It depends when will be the next upgrade, but it's a good point. I consider the X1950Pro to be on the borderline of what's worth it in AGP; it's a good value only under certain conditions. I have no doubts about two things: 1) FX5200s should be replaced with 7600GTs, ok you pay a premium for staying in AGP, but it's a fantastic boost in performance and it's much cheaper than the full system upgrade route. 2) DX10 AGP will have little use. I'm not a fervent of the X1950Pro AGP either.

2. Buying the new mobo/cpu combo means the old one can be sold. So the $222 is decreased by, say, at least $50 the upgrader could get for his old mobo/cpu on ebay.

I'm not greedy enough to ask 50$ for a used P4S800, sorry. :lol:

3. While 939 isn't in it's prime, there are still some dual-core higher end CPUs to upgrade to in the future.

I know for one thing that if I'm to change motherboard, video card and CPU, I'm not going for the same socket, I'm UPGRADING! The X2s actually can't compete with the C2Ds, and that's only the beginning. S939 is not an upgrade path, it's not "flexible", it's not DX10-proof.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

You forget about DDR RAM, which is the one reason I chose the VSTA board. 2GB of new RAM is at least 115$.

I didn't forget it, there are both LGA775 and S939 (of course) boards out ther that don't required the shift to DDR2. The VSTA is just the one that's the Swiss Army knife like tha Other ASRock SATA2.

Why would you want to move to PCIe with a terrible P4?

For the same reason you'd want to put a GF7800GS or the DX10 equivalent on a P4, and that's my point. Why would you wait for the DX10 AGP for a P4?

So what's your point exactly? You want to keep what, the GPU, the RAM? Are you going to run Crysis with a 9800Pro? Are you going to run Supreme Commander with your P4?

No you have those back to front. The R9800 in Supreme Commander with a Dual Core CPU is a better upgrade than moving to the X1950Pro on that old P4, and that's how that example relates exatly to that previous thread where the option was pretty much the same/similar. You need to upgrade for the games/apps, and people talking about DX10 are delluding themselves greatly. I'll grant that there are many situations where a CURRENT GF7800GS is well suited upgrade for CURRENT games, and so is an X1950P or a GF7600GT/X1650Pro/XT, however anyone considering DX10 is not talking about near term current games. And anything that would even show off a GF8600GTS/X2600 as being anywhere near better than an X1950Pro or X1900XT is going to be crippled by the CPU of the unupgradeable P4/SocketA. But the S939, and LGA775 have potential to go into the next gen games, and then when a CPU upgrade is feasible then you already have the PCIe graphics card, not requiring 2 upgrades like wasting more money on an AGP GF8600/X2600 would require. That's the key to the flexability, the option of the wider PCIe selection, and the better pricing, and the far better timing/release dates.

which is justified if you're preparing for Crysis, but not if you just want to give be able to play Oblivion and are stuck with a 9500Pro.

Like I said it depends on the system, andything that is currently upgradeable to dual core has life left in it, just as much as a GF7800 or X1950 has for next gen games.

I am talking about balance. An AMD 3500+ paired with a 9600SE can reveal a lot of potential with a 7600GT or X1950Pro, still keeping the rest of the system. It's not wasted because you're simply getting the most out of your system for as little money as possible.

I'm not talking about the low end, BTW, the AGP GF7600GT has terrible pricing, the GF7800GS is now a better deal. And that was part of the point about premiums. But the focus is on the high end and primarily the future. The X1950Pro is very well priced due to the competition, but still holds that $50 Rialto chips premium, which will never go away for new products as that's almost the cost of the chip, same with HSI. So like I said, the catch is waiting longer and paying more, the flexability of the PCIe upgrade is never having to wait or pay a premium again, for anyone who thinks that their PC is good enough to keep to begin with then, that's gotta be a consideration just as wel, because once you do that second AGP upgrade you've now wasted and extra $50 and even more time.

And I'm not talking about playing Crysis and the future DX10, it's EVIDENT that for that generation you'll want a high-end X2 at least, probably a C2D.

And that's where you miss the focus of my complaint of this thread. I'm not talking about people who are planning an upgrade for Crysis, et al anyways. I'm talking about those who think that this upgrade makes sense heading into Crysis, and that DX10 AGP is right around the corner. They're as dillusional as the initial GF7800GS frenzy. Fo the games you're arguing for I agree, and always have, but they also don't require X1950Ps, and they don't have the upgrade path option that the LGA 775 and even S939 offer.

Did I advocate DX10 cards? Read my post carefully and you'll see no. I'm responding to your comment....

Reread mine carefully then too, and keep in context that IT IS concerning the DX10 and future titles, not playing with the goal of upgrading when the DX10 come out. Clearly this thread is for those future titles, and my comment speaks to that.

"For the added cost of the GF7800GS when it came out, the GF7600GT-AGP when it came out, the premium of the X1950Pro AGP over it's PCIe counterpart, you can buy an S939 or LGA775 MoBo that supports both PCIe and AGP, and lets you keep the old DDR RAM, while giving you an upgrade path to future products at launch. " What's the point exactly? It boils to either you have the money to change mobo/CPU/GPU and your goal is to have a good system for the next DX10 titles, either you're on a little budget and want to get the most out of your current system for the current and previous DX9 titles.

Your two closing statements there completely skirt my point by going to the two extremes. My point is, from all the devs who've made mention of the power requirements, a Strong dual core P-D/AMD64/C2D system will be fine for solid (or in EA's Crysis statements "SWEET") gaming, but you will need the graphics. So for THOSE specific systems, buying the X1950P PCIe on the S939/LGA775 with their CPU options, and the graphics options, means you have that window open to you. Anything less is relying on a card that even the IHVs themselves deny, and there is no driver nor pictures to confirm their development or existance. The GTS-320 being potentially cheaper than the even the PCIe GF8600GTS, doesn't bode well for the 'value' of a GF8600 AGP if the PCIe's MSRP is already in it's territory. So what options are left to the person who has a good Dual core AMD or intel, if they stick with that AGP? They're hoped unless some blessed miracle comes out.

I don't advocate this for the low and mid range, I never have, I also specficially said there's a caveat for old Athlons and P4s, so it's pretty obvious where my comments were directed long before you replied to them.
Somehow you got the idea that I'm talking to people who WIL need a CPU or RAM upgrade along with everything else, and that they are only upgrading for current low end titles. That was never my intention, and like I said the VSTA and Supreme Commander at to show that I'm not a PCIe zealot, I look at what offers the best solution for the situation in question. Heck if I were ven an upgrade Zealot I wouldn't advocate that the guy with the intel (GMA) X3000 keep it until he knows for sure what the new drivers bring for better video playback. I would've recommended something immediately. But by the same token, change the needs more, and that X3000 is gone.

The problem with this is too many people think of THEIR situation, and not the basic economics and facts behind the move. I'll admit I'm guilty of that for the 'format/re-install aspect' but that's because I like to tinker, as I think most people here do to. To me that's a +/-0 issue for me, because regardless of situation, every 2-3 months I blow out my PCs and fresh slipstream install them. And really I think anyone who is a serious enthusiast should do the same. But I admit most people don't care, so that factor will be just as big as the tools who try and limp along with a system well below the minimum spec and flood the forums (OMG ElderScrolls had a ton at laucnh) with the 'How do I get my XP2000+ and FX5900XT/R9600SE to play Crysis it says S2.0 minimum and 2.GHZ AMD64, well mine's and Atlon 2000+ which is bigger, right?'

The whole premis of this thread is ridiculous. The ideas you're talking about have more value, but they really don't belong in this argument, because upgrading a P4 or High end Athlon just before the end, is not a DX10 worthy candidate either for anything more than a slideshow viewer or to see what 3Dmark07 looks like. We're looking at this from two totally different ends of the spectrum, and thinking the othe is talking about our issue, and we're muddying the middle which is the only part our examples come close, but even then the disagreements is more about the middle's slight relatedness to our two peripheral examples.

 

[senor_bob]

And I'm not talking about playing Crysis and the future DX10, it's EVIDENT that for that generation you'll want a high-end X2 at least, probably a C2D. Wanna play the latest titles, your old rig's not gonna cut it. I'm not saying stick a high-end AGP card in your old system and you'll be fine for Crysis, no, I'm saying a P4's better paired with a 7600GT and an AMD64 3500+ is better paired with an X1950Pro, and if you're stuck with a crappy GPU in those systems, the new card is a fine upgrade for most DX9 titles including the latest like C&C3 and Oblivion.

I think this is a great point. There are otherwise decent systems on defunct platforms for which paying the premium for an AGP upgrade can make sense. A year ago Oblivion came out and it kicked my computer's butt royally (P4 HT 3.2Ghz Northwood / SKT478 with a 9800Pro, AGP). I'm talking single digit frame rates without excessive visuals. Due to the lack of high-end AGP cards and the lack of decent SKT478 mobos with PCIe, I was about ready to upgrade the whole system but someone on a forum (can't remember who/where) advised that it was a bad time to buy a system because SKT939 was about to be replaced with AM2 and the intel LGA775 parts (Pentium D / Pentium 4 Presc-hott and Cedar Mill) weren't really much of an upgrade, so why not get an AGP 7600GT or 7800GS and see if Oblivion would run, and just RMA the card if it didn't make the game playable. Well I got a 7800GS for more than the PCIe version (but still cheaper than the retail store price for the PCIe version) and Oblivion ran quite well. Sure I had to turn the grass shadows off to keep the framerate to about 20 outdoors at 12x10, but the game was playable and enjoyable. No other games really challenged the system other than Oblivion last year, so as a result of coughing up the premium for the AGP card, I was able to make the system last another year, at which point I can either get a raging bargain on one of the AMD X2s that would have cost a fortune a year ago or get a kickbutt C2D system for a reasonable price.

If I had bought a new system last year I would now be stuck with either a SKT939 AMD which would probably struggle with the forthcoming games or an LGA775 mobo with a high probababilty of not supporting C2D due to the VRM or some other problem, which would leave me looking at a major overhaul yet again to play SupCom - which ran nice and smooth on my computer in the demo, at least until I actually built more than 3 units , at which point I conceded that it was time for a new computer. So as a result I am glad I got one last upgrade out of my old AGP system because it has saved me a lot of money overall, and I consider the Oblivion grass shadows a small price to pay for that.

All that said, I think my P4 3.2 was on the edge of systems I would consider trying to save (even a year ago), any slower P4 I imagine will really struggle in future titles and I wouldn't recommend trying to salvage that with an AGP GF8600 even if one materialized tomorrow. And I'm not planning to put an X1900Pro or X1900XT or whatever into it this year. But it's not always a bad idea to get a little bit more time out of an old computer, especially without a budget for upgrading frequently.

And for the record if my P4 had been an LGA775 part (or an AMD with SKT939) I would have switched to a PCIe mobo, only the dead-end socket made my decision to stay with AGP.

 

[senor_bob]

Looking at it completely from a business perspective, it would make sense for there to be an AGP DX10 offering. Without going into the whole tech. argument (i.e. your old CPU will bottleneck the new card), it would allow older (but powerful) AGP systems to last a little longer - I know my 3.75GHz P4 system would like one!
Another thing, guess what? NVidia and ATi like to make money. AGP variants of the X1950 Pro and 7800GT have been practically flying off the shelves and nVidia and ATi know that. If there's a good chance people will buy them, they'll be made.

Another thing regarding the market for AGP DX10 cards is users who aren't enthusiasts or even incredibly computer savvy. Just about everyone I know is willing and able to upgrade a video card in a PC, where I would guess that less than 5% of my friends would even consider trying to replace a mobo. I mean you can buy video cards (crappy ones) at Wal*mart and places like that, but seen any motherboards there? But there are plenty of people who would happily buy a video card that they could stick in their Dell or whatever to get a little better performance and the Vista/DX10 sticker on the box (regardless of whether it actually helps their computer) that I expect nVidia and ATI could make plenty off of selling DX10 AGP cards. I don't expect to see an 8800GTX in AGP, but how about some derivative of the forthcoming DX10 integrated graphics chips just stuck on a board? I imagine that some sort of kludgy thing could be whipped up for minimal effort if the card vendors think it would sell, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. Lots of things that are stupid ideas exist because marketing departments figure out how to convince people they aren't stupid ideas.

 

[Dr_asik]

Thanks for the precisions Ape, I understand your point much better now. I'm wondering though, if as you say, a PentiumD or AthlonX2 is really that faster than P4s and A64s, from what we have seen until now I seriously thought C2Ds are just miles ahead and there's no future really for any older processor; I was putting all these CPUs in the same bag. Do you really think we will the dual-core nature of PentiumDs and AMDX2s give them a decisive advantage in DX10? At least in DX9 it's not the case.

 

[runswindows95]

The more I read this topic, and the more I think about DX10, I've came to this one conclusion. The main groups of people who are interested about DX10 really are gamers and graphic designers. Does someone like me who uses his machine mostly for Word, Photoshop, and messing around online really care about how life-like the new DX10 games will look? Nope. To be honest, the only game I run on this is Bejeweled 2. Will I need a DX10 to run it? Nope.

Overall, AGP is going to the way of ISA. It's become a dead slot in many aspects. I mean, all new retail systems have at least one PCI-E 16X slot. Will they make a DX10 AGP card? I say yes, but it will be the newest version of the X1300/7300 cards, nothing high end. They will make them because they will sell. It's just to run DX10, it would make more sense to build a new machine outright considering how graphical anything done with DX10 looks. I mean, I had to look twice at the DX10 model of Adrianna Curry because I thought it was a photo (not that I mind looking at Adrianna Curry twice. DAMN YOU GREG BRADY, YOU LUCKY SOB!).

 

[anthonybuchanan]

TheGreatApe, I, the OP, has always sought information. I never started this or the other similar thread to cause an argument.

You have one serious flaw in all of your replys in this thread though; you ignore what impact a lower rez and lower quality setting would have on my system if I run Crysis.

Because of the absense of the impact of lower rez in all of your replys and, because you seem so determined to get every AGP owner to swap out everthing in order to get PCIe, your argument has lost credibility insofar I see it.

I am a huge fan of yours though and will continue to review any post you give because you are very knowledgable and smart in tech matters but insofar as this thread you have not swayed one person, especially me.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Thanks for the precisions Ape, I understand your point much better now. I'm wondering though, if as you say, a PentiumD or AthlonX2 is really that faster than P4s and A64s, from what we have seen until now I seriously thought C2Ds are just miles ahead and there's no future really for any older processor; I was putting all these CPUs in the same bag. Do you really think we will the dual-core nature of PentiumDs and AMDX2s give them a decisive advantage in DX10? At least in DX9 it's not the case.

Actually it's not the DX10 nature itself, it's that these titles called "DX10 titles", are not only becoming DX10 but are also the same titles that are finally making greater use of Multi-Cores. Oblivion was supposed to be the first to make great use of Dual-core for AI, maps, etc, yet was a disappointment and the impact is very minimal. Only now some games are coming on line that appreciate multi-core, and this is the trend where a PentiumD is actually worth more than before when it sucked at gaming, and even the low end AMD64s have greater use than the faster single cores. This is stated as a benefit for both Crysis and UT3, which are to be considered the 2 principle games on which all others will be compared, and many will be built. Halo3 is a weird and ultra-secret 'port' so not enough is known about it or it's potential influence, however FSX being the other M$ 'DX10 title', already shows benefits of multi-core, using the second to generate terrain geometry, composite textures, traffic AI, etc.

We are finally at the point at which we see the benefit beyond simply communications and background apps. Now the difference is still not near 2X and mostly the benefit will not make up for a single core OC'ed to near 2X the speed, but realistically, it's a huge boost and benefit for any of the early dual cores who may still get benefit, while the older single cores will definitely be lagging.

Even for DX9, look at Supreme commander and single vs dual core already makes a huge difference, and while it's a CPU-centric RTS it's good to see one that actually has a difference between single - dual -quad cores, showing that the threading component is finally being exploited.

And so for someone to even consider these card with such an old system, there's just little benefit compared to a DX9 cheap high end card, or actually making the effort and getting a solid DX10 card with all the benefit.

I don't doubt we'll see any potential GF8600 high end coming on AGP being even more expensive than a GTS-320 than we're already expecting the AGP version to be (based on MSRP versus NewEgg),and even then we don't know the impact of GTS-320's memory limitations fully, so AGP is just another question, especially considering the level of host/kernel integration. I'd comment on my feelings about that but I think that'd cause some people to get their panties in a bunch long before we know for sure.