Any AGP DX10 news ???

[dobby]

just buy a new board, chance are a board like that, will have an old CPU, better chucking the lot out for ddr2, new CPU (c2d example), and PCI.

 

[No1sFanboy]

The subtle points have been made... now lets go to the bigger points:


NVidia and ATI each have ONE advanced AGP card (GF7800GS and the X1950Pro AGP, respectively). These came out at about +$100US over their PCIe counterparts, and came out well after their PCIe counterparts.

I think you can look to the last two "upper mid-end" offerings from Nvidia and ATI as indicators of the future of DX10 AGP cards. Why would any AGP user expect that a possible DX10 AGP part will be be any different?

Consider that there still are NO DX10 PCIe offering in the under $300 market. Consider that.... when the value DX10 cards come out... the AGP variants probably trail by some time, they will be +$100, and they will be hard to find (all two of them, one from each company?).

So yeah, you'll probably get your AGP .... after the low/mid tier of PCIe cards come out, and with a $100 premium to those same PCIe cards.

You want AGP? You got it ! (Bend over......)

Best AGP card currently available at $38.22 usd premium over PCI-e

I probably will in the future buy an AGP DX10 for my skt939 opteron 175 machine. This machine is used for my wife and kids and will lan game just fine with the machine in my sig. I would like for one of these upgrade pushers to explain to me why a new motherboard and the related hassles is favourable to spending an extra $38.22. After this upgrade I would still be left with an obsolete platform.

There are a lot of people like myself for who an AGP upgrade is feasible. Looking at the future DX10 is supposed to put less load on the CPU so some of these older systems may still have some life. Though I would be leery of upgrading a single core machine for future titles.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Do you even listen to yourself?

Sure don't you?

The OP just wanted AGP DX10 based news,

Good for him.
www.google.com

and you're *still* preaching about the evils of AGP.

Obviously you have a reading comprehension problem. I didn't say it was evil, I said it's not a good upgrade path and has little to do with anyone forcing anyone to buy something. If you or the OP wanna preach BS about PCIe or upgrading itself being evil, eletist or whatnot, then you/he are dillusional and deserve to be challenged on your statements.

Have you provided any relevant news?

Do you have relevant news? I've seen rumour and counter rumour, and the promise that GeCube will look at it if there's demand. The only facts are the history and current situation.

I've just said there will be DX10 AGP cards, but I'm still looking to try and provide what the OP seeks.

You said there will be DX10 AGP cards, but really, how do you know? I don't doubt there will be, but do you know when, their price, their speeds? There wasn't any displayed at CeBit, so who knows how long the wait is and what it's worth. Hence my first simple reply to the OP, which is all he deserved after the previous thread.

So far the best we have is GeCube saying they will eventually give them if that's what the customers want. BTW, what do I care what the OP seeks? He didn't care what was best for the OP in another thread, so I show that same level of concern. Fair enough?!?

 

[Arrowyx]

Yes, we all spend every spare penny on wives/girlfriends and can't save any either. That being said, the rest of your rig was the problem and putting a more powerful graphics card in will bring you very limited benefits. That is the point I was trying to make when I told you $350 would get you a new core setup. You wouldn't have it of course and started trying to preach to the choir about how we are all PCIe zealots trying to get you to spend all your money. I guess in the future I wont tell you that you are just wasting money on a dead-end platform and let you spend it. :roll:

There are a lot of people like myself for who an AGP upgrade is feasible. Looking at the future DX10 is supposed to put less load on the CPU so some of these older systems may still have some life. Though I would be leery of upgrading a single core machine for future titles.

Don't get me wrong, I would probably just drop in an AGP card in your case too but the OP's rig has a P4 2.6GHz processor in it; an AGP graphics card is a pointless upgrade for him.

 

[cronic]

You said there will be DX10 AGP cards, but really, how do you know? I don't doubt there will be

how do you know there wont?
i can tell you there will be dx10 agp cards at some point as long as there is a market for them
at the moment there still is a good market
why would amd or nv alienate a portion of thier market
they can sell cheap gpus at a high price, sounds ideal from a business point of view

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Best AGP card currently available at $38.22 usd premium over PCI-e

You're linking to NCIX for US prices?!? OMG!! :roll:

Cheapest X1950P PCIe: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161060
Cheapest X1950P AGP: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161070

$50+taxes difference, and both far cheaper than NCIX.

I probably will in the future buy an AGP DX10 for my skt939 opteron 175 machine. This machine is used for my wife and kids and will lan game just fine with the machine in my sig.

If you're turning into a M$ Office box for the wife/kids, what do you need an upgrade of anything for? A GF6600 would be fine forever for that. And really this is for people who are concerned with a primary rig. Those of us who have/had multiple rigs simply push the new in and move it down to the old. Talking about crippling a second rig, when you have a C2D and GF8800 to play games on is pretty funny. Yeah the motivation for you is the same as the kid who can only keep one rig for everything.

Also you talk as if a Mobo swap were the end of the world and so complicated, do none of you ever clean out your drives with a fresh install? God the bit rot in your old rigs must be terrible. 8O

As for the CPU prediction, have you ever seen games not use every ounce of CPU power available to them from gen to gen? DX10 doesn't let games like Crysis run on Athlons, it makes it so that previously impossible things can run on the current hardware, and considering what Crytek has said about the game, expect those old Athlons and P4s to be nearly unuseable and completely stiffle any benefit of a high end card.

 

[anthonybuchanan]

Why don't the PCIe zeolots address resolution.

I will be able to run Crysis at 1280X720 with the upcoming AGP DX10 cards.

 

[Dr_asik]

For the added cost of the GF7800GS when it came out, the GF7600GT-AGP when it came out, the premium of the X1950Pro AGP over it's PCIe counterpart, you can buy an S939 or LGA775 MoBo that supports both PCIe and AGP, and lets you keep the old DDR RAM, while giving you an upgrade path to future products at launch.

You're talking about the ASRock Dual-VSTA board? It's only PCI-Express 4X you know, I doubt you'll want to keep it for the next upgrade, so it's not quite as flexible as you would think.

Also, the actual "premium" you pay on the AGP X1950Pro, just checked newegg.com, is less than 50$. What motherboard can you buy for 50$? Also, if you're not upgrading the processor, what's the point of switching motherboards? But if you are buying a new processor also, then it comes out at much more than 50$, isn't it? An E4300 is 165$ and a Dual-VSTA board is about 80$. Then you still haven't upgraded the GPU hey?

In Canada the premium is 80$ , but the fact remains if you invest that on a motherboard, (even if you can find a decent one at 80$) once you have the new mobo you haven't gained any sort of performance yet. If you want additionnal performance you'll have to change processor/video card, and that's going to cost some more serious money.

There's a wide range of different systems in AGP: it's a waste to pair an X1950Pro with a P4 2Ghz, but there's still a lot of potential in an Atlhon 3500+ system. I don't see someone stuck with an old FX5200 in such system making a bad choice by sticking an X1950Pro in there, his gaming performance will absolutely skyrocket, and for what, 220$, that's a fair deal considering the full mobo/cpu/gpu upgrade would be at least 400$ and yes, faster but as much faster as it is more expensive. It's about the same value.

I agree though, that there will be little use to DX10 AGP cards, because typically the games in DX10 will also require a more modern CPU. The X1950Pro shall stay the last breath of AGP.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

how do you know there wont?

I don't, but don't confuse actual news with rumour, especially if you're complaining about it.

i can tell you there will be dx10 agp cards at some point as long as there is a market for them

You can tell me that, but you have no proof of their existence, nor proof that bridge chips work well with that serie and don't affect DX10 host communication. Youhave proof of this do you? Because if you do I'd love to see it since it's a concern for some Devs.

at the moment there still is a good market
why would amd or nv alienate a portion of thier market

Because it's an ever shrinking more costly to supoprt portion of their market, which would be better transitioned to their primary product line. Why doesn't intel and AMD still make new SocketA and S478 chips? Same reason. Waste of resources to support AGP, especially when they obviously can't spare their software people to get their drivers to work for their PCIe products under Vista/DX10, why add the AGP burden to that overtaxed team? Which is another reason why you likely won't see DX10 AGP cards until everything works fine on the PCIe cards, because there's no way they are pulling the team off their major market to start tinkering with AGP until PCIe is working under DX10/Vista.

Even if GeCube were to pop a Rialto board on an RV6xx or nV slaps on a GF8600 onto an HSI GF7600 board, it's useless until the drivers work for it.

Like I said, be prepared to wait!
Unless you have something more salient to add that proves otherwise.

 

[No1sFanboy]

Best AGP card currently available at $38.22 usd premium over PCI-e

You're linking to NCIX for US prices?!? OMG!! :roll:

Cheapest X1950P PCIe: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161060
Cheapest X1950P AGP: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161070

$50+taxes difference, and both far cheaper than NCIX.

I probably will in the future buy an AGP DX10 for my skt939 opteron 175 machine. This machine is used for my wife and kids and will lan game just fine with the machine in my sig.

If you're turning into a M$ Office box for the wife/kids, what do you need an upgrade of anything for? A GF6600 would be fine forever for that. And really this is for people who are concerned with a primary rig. Those of us who have/had multiple rigs simply push the new in and move it down to the old. Talking about crippling a second rig, when you have a C2D and GF8800 to play games on is pretty funny. Yeah the motivation for you is the same as the kid who can only keep one rig for everything.

Also you talk as if a Mobo swap were the end of the world and so complicated, do none of you ever clean out your drives with a fresh install? God the bit rot in your old rigs must be terrible. 8O

As for the CPU prediction, have you ever seen games not use every ounce of CPU power available to them from gen to gen? DX10 doesn't let games like Crysis run on Athlons, it makes it so that previously impossible things can run on the current hardware, and considering what Crytek has said about the game, expect those old Athlons and P4s to be nearly unuseable and completely stiffle any benefit of a high end card.

The point of the link was not a best price on the card but rather a more realistic price difference from a single retailer on PCI-e vs AGP. So at 38 or $50 it is still less than a motherboard. And yes swapping out a motherboard on an old machine to upgrade graphics is a waste of my time.

 

[martyjs]

Put it another way. I have a 1987 model car( Time frames about right), can I please get 2007 model carby put in so it will run more efficiently?

What do you mean the don't make new carbys to fit my car? 8O what's fuel injection? 8O Please make one just to suit my old car. Please.
:lol:

Some times you have to bite the bullet and say. "it's time to move on"
Just a fact of life.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

You're talking about the ASRock Dual-VSTA board? It's only PCI-Express 4X you know, I doubt you'll want to keep it for the next upgrade, so it's not quite as flexible as you would think.

As flexible as I would think, which is more than simply sticking with AGP alone, and if not sticking with AGP at all, then you move out from under tha rock and can get whatever modern PCIe MoBo you want without that limitation, right? My suggestion for that is for those who need the flexability of options, not the absolute killer rig/fps, those people already moved to PCIe long ago when they wanted a GF7 or X1K series.

Also, the actual "premium" you pay on the AGP X1950Pro, just checked newegg.com, is less than 50$.

Care to link to the cards? The two I linked two are the two cheapest X1950Pros for their respective groups. So it's +/- taxes.

What motherboard can you buy for 50$?

Many, it depends on what the socket/configuration of course.

Also, if you're not upgrading the processor, what's the point of switching motherboards?

For the upgrade path and options it gives you without spending the extra on a single AGP card and then having no path.

In Canada the premium is 80$

Once again, links. This time you show me yours I'll show you mine. :twisted:

but the fact remains if you invest that on a motherboard, (even if you can find a decent one at 80$) once you have the new mobo you haven't gained any sort of performance yet. If you want additionnal performance you'll have to change processor/video card, and that's going to cost some more serious money.

Which actually is a separate exercise, now isn't it? If you want better performance on your current MoBo you still have to pay that premium, on top of the fact that you payed for a limited graphics card selection now, and still the same limited future. Also, don't forget no possible option of using that AGP card for physics or anything else. Pretty bleak for the same price tag, and guaranteeing no future useability other than as an M$ Office box or server.

There's a wide range of different systems in AGP: it's a waste to pair an X1950Pro with a P4 2Ghz, but there's still a lot of potential in an Atlhon 3500+ system....that's a fair deal considering the full mobo/cpu/gpu upgrade would be at least 400$

Like I said only the pathetic old Athlons and P4s would be even considerable, and then, puting DX10 card in there hoping to play next gen games would be like overclocking an XP2000+ hoping to play Oblivion. An A64 3500+ is not limited by the same restrictions as a socket A Athlon, so why did you need the CPU upgrade too? I think you're missing the point of the MoBo+Graphics path, and adding your own variables to make it look like something it's not.

and yes, faster but as much faster as it is more expensive. It's about the same value.

Only if you're under the impression that an old P4 will be somehow magically worth more for playability in Crysis than even a cheap GF7600GT+CPU. For the $400 you're talking about you can get an E6300 and X1950Pro with money left over. You're numbers are very over inflated. Even a solid AMD64+MoBo+X1950P is only ~$100 more than that AGP X1950Pro, and that will be far more worthy of considering future titles than the idea of running future titles with a P4 or Socket A Athlon. *shudder*

And like I said it's not for everyone, but anyone who already has an S939, S754, LGA775 CPU has the option to switch for the same price, no premium, and also has more options then available to them should they find that their rig is lacking when the time comes, and without the wait of guessing will/won't they give "Gill a Lick at the DX10 ring", if those DX10 cards ever do come out, will it be before or after the people need new CPUs too?

Persoanlly I could care less, the die hards can waste their money how they see fit, just don't argue that those of us who recommend better paths are doing so only because we hate APG. I just hate the fanatics, just like the religious fanatics, or any other Fanboi. And the OP is definitely a fanatic, just read his post in the Supreme Commander thread, he thinks anyone recommending a CPU upgrade for that game instead of telling the guy to upgrade his perfectly good R9800Pro is doing so because we have stock or family in intel. :roll:

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The point of the link was not a best price on the card but rather a more realistic price difference from a single retailer on PCI-e vs AGP.

Can I then pick one with an even more exagerrated difference? You picked one with a smaller difference, I picked the best prices for both I've seen published, where even their AGP was cheaper than your PCIe. I could post a link to somewhere where the difference is much more, but of course the wiser folks here would say I'm fudging the numbers, which is what you're doing even if it's through ignorance of the current prices.

So at 38 or $50 it is still less than a motherboard.

Actually there are a bunch of MoBos out there for $50 and less, just maybe not at overpriced NCIX.

And yes swapping out a motherboard on an old machine to upgrade graphics is a waste of my time.

As is adding overpriced AGP at this point for others, especially anyone considering future titles.

 

[martyjs]

Sometimes you don't even have to do that. We sell mostly OEM. The online activation processe will work again on a new computer even, after about 6 months. Done it heaps of times.

 

[moconroe]

Man!! I love this.. All you have to do is ask a question these days and !!BOOM!! One big MY LOGIC IS BETTER THAN YOURS barrage! This happens just about every time! You cant even get an answer to a question.

I dont ask any questions on these sites I just search the net and most of the time I find more info than most of these people know exists! If you do this you find that a lot of these people just do what the crowd does and then bitch and scream to make you think they make their own decisions.

So keep asking questions like this so we can enjoy the confusion of true egotism.

Since 96 every 3 years I have put together the fastest components I could find for my new computers at a cost of $3-4K and every time after about 3 years the day comes when someone suddenly releases the game that wont run worth a crap no matter what I can upgrade.. So I have to buy the next big thing.

This time things have changed. The fastest stuff costs too much all together (even if you buy the single Vcard version BTW) for how long its going to be good for - 1 to 1.5 years. And not to mention that crappy Windows Vista.
PCIE is just coming of age IMO and WVista needs about a year to get it together.
So these people who are buying this stuff now are going to be spending more and more $ to keep up for the next two years and then have to buy a all new system.

So for $1.2K I put together a Dual Vista with E6600 and some
DDR2 667 + 750GBs of Raid then topped it off with the Limited Edition GW-7800GS+.. Gets about 8000 in 3DMark 05. runs every game I got at 1600/1200 with all highest settings, Oblivion runs at 1290/1024 with lots of Mods with very little noticeable slow down in some outdoor cells.

This system is kind of a cool way to say goodby to AGP too!
You dont get many opportunities to make a good performing odd-ball like this setup I got.. It reminds me of a Datsun 240Z with a 350 Chevy under the hood!

This system will probably last the year and a half I need it to.

You got me to do a bit of searching.. All I found was this GeCube stuff also?

The thing is about 3/4 of the world are still on a AGP so there still is a good chance for a DX10 AGP version? If its possible it will probably be a not so NV-asskissing company that makes it. All the better, my GW7800+ is 25% faster than the GF7800!

Any how, I like you will buy a DX10 AGP card if someone makes it!

!!!ON WITH THE BITCHING!!!

 

[mitch074]

Put it another way. I have a 1987 model car( Time frames about right), can I please get 2007 model carby put in so it will run more efficiently?

What do you mean the don't make new carbys to fit my car? 8O what's fuel injection? 8O Please make one just to suit my old car. Please.
:lol:

Actually my bro' is trying to do that on his 1987 VW Golf. He had an adapter tailored to do just that - and he's now waiting for the weather to get better so as to fit and tune the whole shenanigan correctly, and enjoy his extra 10-15 HP.

Much ado about nothing, you'd say. While making a DX10 run on an AGP system isn't difficult (translation chip), it would indeed improve performance on older systems for games that are not CPU bound. It would however result in severely inbalanced systems, and still cost a pretty penny.

 

[306maxi]

As of now, the agp market is quite small, and with dx10 it will most likely shrink even more.

Rubbish!!!

Its not small at all, its just not being supplied with enough cards.

Why is it that all the AGP ATI cards are always sold on out on most UK Hardware suppliers websites??

This is spearheaded by Microsoft and its ridiculous stance on having windows Vista as the only DX10 OS.

Forcing you to upgrade because the over bloated piece of **** OS needs new hardware to run, meaning PCI-E and high end graphics cards to get your windows performance score up.

This is all such a load of rubbish, and is what happens when one company has complete dominance of the market.

We are being FORCED to do all this. It is not by choice..

You wanna the latest graphics hombre??....why of course....you will need all this and then have no choice as to what OS to run it on.

TWATS!.

/Rant over

Perhaps you're the twat.....

No one forces you to buy Vista or use Vista. If Ford was to bring out a new car with an engine with more cylinders than in the last model people wouldn't be up in arms. You bought XP knowing it was XP and you were never promised DX10 on there. Why the hell are you now complaining?

The 2.8Ghz P4 which was mine but is now my parents PC ran Vista just fine with a gig of memory and a 256Mb 6600 GT. Hardly state of the art equipment. If I still had that PC I wouldn't have been forced to buy a new PC as you seem to suggest. I may have put more memory in there and a DX10 card and got another year out of it and saved up for a new PC.

 

[rosu9801]

If people wanna pay money to cap what their tech path has to offer them, np, you are still gonna have to find another way eventually.
The bottleneck will come or have come already, yes mostly for games.
Holding off for a while might give you better performance for lower prices then today, hopefully.

Some might hold out so long they will miss the whole PCI-e era (got no clue how long that will be), im just wondering if you pay more for old tech wouldn't that eventually eat up the difference of getting new tech?
Your planning on getting the x1950 AGP now and then later the DX10?

Would anyone here have adviced me to go with AM2 (or even with the few s939 cpus left out there) instead of a LGA775 C2D , after what everyone said about its perfomance?
Sure i could have gotten a cheaper system and still upgrade my s939 3200+, but i had an budget and i stuck within that, so why not?

Everyone after their own wallet and preferences, right?
I try to stay within the price/perfomance way of thinking and "future proofing/upgradeability" is also a important factor, imo.
Still i would appreciate any suggestions someone might have had since im not all-knowing, im sure i did some unwise desicions, it was only my second real build ever, hehe.

So why say that people that want you to go PCI-e are trying to trick you?
Because its more optional/cheaper/upgradeable then AGP?
Or that you think the gain isn't worth the money, not even down the line(1-2 years from now)?

If anything is unclear or sound really strange i blame the swedish schoolsystem...

 

[MickK]

Shame so many posts from AGP end up with noobs saying spend $$$ on new MB, RAM, CPU, GPU, PSU, Case just to get DX10. Bet they also respond to evey other question with the word "Google" somewhere in the first line.

I've an SLI system but I also have a backup system still on AGP that I would like to have DX10 for. That system can do almost everything my gaming system can so I see no reason why good AGP systems should be thrown in the bin. I have a 512MB Gainward 7800GS card in that machine and its plays everything I throw at it really well.

NVIDIA did also say there would never be a 7xxx series AGP card but then realised they were in the business of making money and rushed a part out. I'd imagine if the 8xxx series works with their bridge then they'll ship it. ATI seems to be all for an AGP DX10 part, more power to them, they'll have my money if NVIDIA don't do one.

I don't think the 8xxx series is NVIDIAs best work, was really rushed and seems to have a lot of architecture problems. If they get the 9xxx series right then we may see an AGP part again.

 

[choknuti]

Much ado about nothing, you'd say. While making a DX10 run on an AGP system isn't difficult (translation chip), it would indeed improve performance on older systems for games that are not CPU bound. It would however result in severely inbalanced systems, and still cost a pretty penny.

Well said sir! That is the best remark so far in this over heated thread. In the end it all comes down to what applications (games) are going to be running on said system.

@OP

The laws of the market state that you should see DX10 agp cards. Even if (edited ) they do not bring any performance advantage (which I am not debating here) they will appear. How else can you explain those 512MB 1300 and 7300s? If you can sell it there will always be a buyer. A big sticker with DX 10 on the box will entice a lot of buyers.

 

[choknuti]

Good for him.
www.google.com

About 90% of the questions of this forum can be solved by google. Sometimes it is easier (and preferable) to ask someone who knows more. Isn't that the idea behind this community?

 

[rosu9801]

Yes going through several sites not knowing which one has the latest and most accurate info is not fun.

I rather ask knowledgeable people who do know instead.

 

[No1sFanboy]

The point of the link was not a best price on the card but rather a more realistic price difference from a single retailer on PCI-e vs AGP.

Can I then pick one with an even more exagerrated difference? You picked one with a smaller difference, I picked the best prices for both I've seen published, where even their AGP was cheaper than your PCIe. I could post a link to somewhere where the difference is much more, but of course the wiser folks here would say I'm fudging the numbers, which is what you're doing even if it's through ignorance of the current prices.

So at 38 or $50 it is still less than a motherboard.

Actually there are a bunch of MoBos out there for $50 and less, just maybe not at overpriced NCIX.

And yes swapping out a motherboard on an old machine to upgrade graphics is a waste of my time.

As is adding overpriced AGP at this point for others, especially anyone considering future titles.

I made no attempt to fudge the numbers. I take offense to the comment and can assure you that I will never use this forum to misinform. You and I are in agreement about the price differential (within $12). More importantly back to the point.

-The op asked about any news re. DX10 AGP cards.
- You and others in typical "forum bully" fashion rather than address the topic have decided to debate the logic in upgrading an agp system to dx10.
- I simply pointed out a scenario where a system like my opteron 175 is a logical candidate for one more agp GPU upgrade on the basis that it carries a 38-50 dollar penalty.

Now without trying to impress us with your immense knowledge on unrelated topics show me why a motherboard upgrade makes since. The system is skt939. A new motherboard will still be obsolete and an upgrade dead end. Any significant upgrade on that system would require motherboard, cpu and memory which right now are all fine. Tell me why an opteron 175 would not benefit from one more graphics upgrade and why if upgrading to a new card it should not be dx10.

 

[rodney_ws]

Any news on Vesa Local Bus or ISA DX10 Cards?
:lol:

Dumbass... they're only going to offer DX10 cards in EISA and MCA. ISA DX10 cards?!? LOL... what a joke.

 

[pseudopeon]

Looking at it completely from a business perspective, it would make sense for there to be an AGP DX10 offering. Without going into the whole tech. argument (i.e. your old CPU will bottleneck the new card), it would allow older (but powerful) AGP systems to last a little longer - I know my 3.75GHz P4 system would like one!
Another thing, guess what? NVidia and ATi like to make money. AGP variants of the X1950 Pro and 7800GT have been practically flying off the shelves and nVidia and ATi know that. If there's a good chance people will buy them, they'll be made.