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dark_lord69
Splendid
- Jun 6, 2006
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LOL Apple is too good for cash.
"to curb grey market sales of customers buying iPads in large quantities and selling them overseas at a profit."
I get though...
They probably track credit card numbers making sure you don't buy more than 2 to sell them overseas.
"to curb grey market sales of customers buying iPads in large quantities and selling them overseas at a profit."
I get though...
They probably track credit card numbers making sure you don't buy more than 2 to sell them overseas.
[citation][nom]Yoder54[/nom]This tactic is commonly used to fight the black market, and this was stated in the article. There was a time when US forces overseas used MPC and not green backs for money, and you had a ration control plate (plastic) that was used to track all purchases. It was as late as 1973. Why? To control the black market.Also, it really has nothing to do with socialism. Why is our society so bent on calling everything they do not agree with as being 'socialist?' In the 50's and 60's we used 'communism.' Seems like history does repeat itself.[/citation]
Do you actually know what the 'Black market' really is? There is only one market. Every time when private entity is trying to exert their power and control over free market creates unsatisfied needs and alternative parallel channel of trade starts. When this control is done through law and aggressive power of the state it becomes a real 'Black (illegal) market'
So only way to control the 'black' market is not to control the market in the first place. So if Apple doesn't want somebody else to rip the profits from iPad over sea they better start sell directly over sea.
That is exactly why we have piracy of copyright materials. Copyright is government given monopoly. MPAA and RIAA are abusing this monopoly in order to extract monopolistic profits. As result we have Pirate Bay. The more control the Congress gives the MPAA more piracy we will see. Sorry.
There is big difference between repeating slogans as 'Free trade and Free markets" and actually understanding what those things are. I understand if socialist and communist not understanding the concept, but Americans not understanding this and accepting private or government control, it is belong me.
Do you actually know what the 'Black market' really is? There is only one market. Every time when private entity is trying to exert their power and control over free market creates unsatisfied needs and alternative parallel channel of trade starts. When this control is done through law and aggressive power of the state it becomes a real 'Black (illegal) market'
So only way to control the 'black' market is not to control the market in the first place. So if Apple doesn't want somebody else to rip the profits from iPad over sea they better start sell directly over sea.
That is exactly why we have piracy of copyright materials. Copyright is government given monopoly. MPAA and RIAA are abusing this monopoly in order to extract monopolistic profits. As result we have Pirate Bay. The more control the Congress gives the MPAA more piracy we will see. Sorry.
There is big difference between repeating slogans as 'Free trade and Free markets" and actually understanding what those things are. I understand if socialist and communist not understanding the concept, but Americans not understanding this and accepting private or government control, it is belong me.
IFLATLINEI
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- Jan 24, 2010
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Oh My God! Are they f'in serious? What a joke Apple is. The little bit of respect I had for Apple is now gone.
For those who think that it's illegal for a business to refuse to sell something for cash in Europe you need to know the English legal concept of "offer to treat" or "invitation to treat"
Probably also applies to US law, so much of which was borrowed from England -- in US I think it's known as an "offer to bargain". There's a slight difference between offer and invitation, but the outcome is that (for example) I saw a Marantz receiver in a dept store window at a ridiculously low price. When I offered that price they realised their mistake and wouldn't sell it. They were quite entitled to because the display is merely a device for showing that the thing is available and the price displayed is not a contract.
Ditto Apple -- they are quite entitled under English law to define the terms of payment and the customer is quite entitled to refuse those terms. No way are Apple obliged to sell you anything.
I think Apple (some of whose products I admire but whose prices merely amuse me) are not only acting legally but, in the circumstances of a shortage, rather ethically.
Where they've gone wrong is in being inflexible and not treating each case on its merits -- with resulting PR egg on face. Such rigidity does not bode well for the company's future.
Probably also applies to US law, so much of which was borrowed from England -- in US I think it's known as an "offer to bargain". There's a slight difference between offer and invitation, but the outcome is that (for example) I saw a Marantz receiver in a dept store window at a ridiculously low price. When I offered that price they realised their mistake and wouldn't sell it. They were quite entitled to because the display is merely a device for showing that the thing is available and the price displayed is not a contract.
Ditto Apple -- they are quite entitled under English law to define the terms of payment and the customer is quite entitled to refuse those terms. No way are Apple obliged to sell you anything.
I think Apple (some of whose products I admire but whose prices merely amuse me) are not only acting legally but, in the circumstances of a shortage, rather ethically.
Where they've gone wrong is in being inflexible and not treating each case on its merits -- with resulting PR egg on face. Such rigidity does not bode well for the company's future.
Parrdacc
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- Jun 30, 2008
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Wow never heard of any person, company, or business argue with cold hard cash. Yet another reason to hate Apple. Their reasoning, or I should say their actions based on the reason will not solve the problem they state. What is Apple doing keeping a record of every single credit card purchase a person makes and if so I am sure for those doing this sort of thing already have a way around that as well.
jerreece
Splendid
- Sep 7, 2006
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Apple. I swear. If they only take credit cards, this makes me wonder if they are cataloging your personal information. Let's face it, a retailer actually PAYS to allow you to take a credit card. They could be charged 2-5% of the total transaction depending on what credit card you use. So Apple actually loses profit by accepting credit cards.
Now, they may claim they have no ability for employees to skim the till (steal cash). But a company that only takes credit cards bothers me.
It's a good thing I already have a healthy hatred for Apple to begin with.
Now, they may claim they have no ability for employees to skim the till (steal cash). But a company that only takes credit cards bothers me.
It's a good thing I already have a healthy hatred for Apple to begin with.
[citation][nom]fihart[/nom] I saw a Marantz receiver in a dept store window at a ridiculously low price. When I offered that price they realised their mistake and wouldn't sell it. They were quite entitled to because the display is merely a device for showing that the thing is available and the price displayed is not a contract.[/citation]
Really because I believe that is false advertising. However I am no expert. I do know way back when, I worked for a lumberyard, and it the display was wrong we sold it at that price. Now that could be a store policy, but as tight as they were I sincerly doubt it.
Really because I believe that is false advertising. However I am no expert. I do know way back when, I worked for a lumberyard, and it the display was wrong we sold it at that price. Now that could be a store policy, but as tight as they were I sincerly doubt it.
Gin Fushicho
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- Mar 11, 2009
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They refused cash?! What the hell.... "I'm an old laady, here's some counterfeit hundred dollar bills", I'm assuming that;s what went through the minds of those people. so, so sad.
Well yeah, they aren't in stock ANYWHERE and Apple has a 2 limit per person.
Apple accepts cash, but not cash for the iPad, because there is a limit on it that is extremely easy to abuse without tracking a credit/debit card used for the purchase. You can still abuse it, sure... but it is much harder to find 50 cards to buy up 100 iPads than it is to go from store to store with friends paying cash and buy up 100.
The policy is for a period (no pun intended... iPad...) and for a reason. Makes sense to me.
Apple accepts cash, but not cash for the iPad, because there is a limit on it that is extremely easy to abuse without tracking a credit/debit card used for the purchase. You can still abuse it, sure... but it is much harder to find 50 cards to buy up 100 iPads than it is to go from store to store with friends paying cash and buy up 100.
The policy is for a period (no pun intended... iPad...) and for a reason. Makes sense to me.
megahustler
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- May 19, 2010
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deweycd
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- Sep 13, 2005
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The thing I don't understand is that if you don't like the policy of Apple or any other company, why do you keep buying their products making them believe that their policies are working? Do you really think things will change if they are still resulting in products selling?
As much as I have fought this with gas stations and restaurants, refusing to take $50 or $100 bills, the term "legal tender" on money requires it to be accepted for all "Debts," however, just because Apple "offers" an item for sale does not mean you have entered into a debt by requesting to purchase it. They can employ supreme court backed "invitation to Treat" and can refuse the sale for quite literally ANY reason.
In order to guarantee the stock availability, and limit unintended exports in a demand rich environment, lots of companies refuse sales that can not be validated to a specific individual, and strictly limit purchases. In this case, apple is insisting on a credit or debit card being used in order to validate identity, since it's illegal in most states to use a drivers license number for such, and its illegal everywhere to use a SSN for such. Multiple credit cards bound to the same address with the same printed name is an easy way to validate identity.
With things like food in a restaurant or Gas, (if you can for some reason pump before you pay), you have already been provided the goods, and have a requirement to pay the debt. (since they can't easily or possibly reclaim the goods), If so, they MUST accept the cash (though they can make you wait an indeterminate period for change if they can not provide enough). If they fail to accept the cash, reference the appropriate acts, and you can legally walk away without payment as the debt is instantly void (though calling the police may be needed so they don;t send them after you as retaliation). However, Cash CAN be refused at point of sale, or in advance of sale, including for Gas, as it is common to have a "pay before you pump" restriction, and a "we don't accept $50s" sign denying the sale before it occurred.
On a side note, as far as "minimum sale" for credit cards, or fees for using a credit card in excess of that for other payments "a "CASH" discount is allowed, but not for checks or any other payment type otherwise it is seen as a credit use charge) that's not only strictly illegal, it's against their merchant agreement, and if you see such a sign, IMMEDIATELY call your card issuer or Visa directly, and if the merchant refuses the transaction, they'll be fined by Visa, possibly by the state, and can have their card services revoked immediately. Additionally, if you fail to be ID'd for any transaction involving a credit card that did not also involve a pin number (signature transactions), you can call Visa and state such, and they can instantly refund the transaction, though telling local management usually results in the same with less trouble. I've done that a few times at Walmart when a cashier was particularly rude or unfriendly (to me or someone else).
In order to guarantee the stock availability, and limit unintended exports in a demand rich environment, lots of companies refuse sales that can not be validated to a specific individual, and strictly limit purchases. In this case, apple is insisting on a credit or debit card being used in order to validate identity, since it's illegal in most states to use a drivers license number for such, and its illegal everywhere to use a SSN for such. Multiple credit cards bound to the same address with the same printed name is an easy way to validate identity.
With things like food in a restaurant or Gas, (if you can for some reason pump before you pay), you have already been provided the goods, and have a requirement to pay the debt. (since they can't easily or possibly reclaim the goods), If so, they MUST accept the cash (though they can make you wait an indeterminate period for change if they can not provide enough). If they fail to accept the cash, reference the appropriate acts, and you can legally walk away without payment as the debt is instantly void (though calling the police may be needed so they don;t send them after you as retaliation). However, Cash CAN be refused at point of sale, or in advance of sale, including for Gas, as it is common to have a "pay before you pump" restriction, and a "we don't accept $50s" sign denying the sale before it occurred.
On a side note, as far as "minimum sale" for credit cards, or fees for using a credit card in excess of that for other payments "a "CASH" discount is allowed, but not for checks or any other payment type otherwise it is seen as a credit use charge) that's not only strictly illegal, it's against their merchant agreement, and if you see such a sign, IMMEDIATELY call your card issuer or Visa directly, and if the merchant refuses the transaction, they'll be fined by Visa, possibly by the state, and can have their card services revoked immediately. Additionally, if you fail to be ID'd for any transaction involving a credit card that did not also involve a pin number (signature transactions), you can call Visa and state such, and they can instantly refund the transaction, though telling local management usually results in the same with less trouble. I've done that a few times at Walmart when a cashier was particularly rude or unfriendly (to me or someone else).
[citation][nom]hoofhearted[/nom]Federal law defers this to the states. There is no such "legal tender" law in CA. Do any other states have such a law? Maybe she can move there and make her case.http://www.ustreas.gov/education/f [...] r.shtml#q1[/citation]
Please reference the Supreme Court backed statements on "invitation to treat." There is no debt until both the purchaser and the merchant agree both to a price and method of payment. Just because it's offered for sale does NOT require them to accept cash for it, or even to sell it to you at all, whether or not there are posted disclaimers. For food in a restruant, it;s a bit different, since they can't refuse to sell it to you after it's been eaten (or custom prepared), and if you do get so lucky as to pump gas without paying in advance, they must accept cash as well, even $50 and $100 bills, even if a sign says otherwise, but they can refuse to take such bills if you have to pay in advance.
Please reference the Supreme Court backed statements on "invitation to treat." There is no debt until both the purchaser and the merchant agree both to a price and method of payment. Just because it's offered for sale does NOT require them to accept cash for it, or even to sell it to you at all, whether or not there are posted disclaimers. For food in a restruant, it;s a bit different, since they can't refuse to sell it to you after it's been eaten (or custom prepared), and if you do get so lucky as to pump gas without paying in advance, they must accept cash as well, even $50 and $100 bills, even if a sign says otherwise, but they can refuse to take such bills if you have to pay in advance.
[citation][nom]Sam40[/nom]"U.S. Treasury Department says that there is nothing in the law that requires businesses to accept cash as payment."That is just ridiculous. It opens the door for all types of discrimination, like the Apple is guilty of here. The law should be changed.[/citation]
The law exists EXPLICITLY (called "invitation to treat") for such cases as when a merchant advertises and item, but could not meed demand for such item at such price, and explicitly gives them the power to refuse sale for any reason at any advertised price (so long as they don;t run afoul of bait and switch laws). this is the explicit reason QApple is refusing to accept cash, based on limited supply and curbing of black market and international export. That reason is actually mentioned in the supreme court case that upheld it.
As for discrimination, refusing cash is not discrimination. Refusing a sale for any tender from one person while accepting it from another with the SAME offered tender is illegal, especially if there's a racial, religious, or sexual difference between the two.
The law exists EXPLICITLY (called "invitation to treat") for such cases as when a merchant advertises and item, but could not meed demand for such item at such price, and explicitly gives them the power to refuse sale for any reason at any advertised price (so long as they don;t run afoul of bait and switch laws). this is the explicit reason QApple is refusing to accept cash, based on limited supply and curbing of black market and international export. That reason is actually mentioned in the supreme court case that upheld it.
As for discrimination, refusing cash is not discrimination. Refusing a sale for any tender from one person while accepting it from another with the SAME offered tender is illegal, especially if there's a racial, religious, or sexual difference between the two.
victomofreality
Distinguished
- Aug 24, 2009
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[citation][nom]Yoder54[/nom]This tactic is commonly used to fight the black market, and this was stated in the article. There was a time when US forces overseas used MPC and not green backs for money, and you had a ration control plate (plastic) that was used to track all purchases. It was as late as 1973. Why? To control the black market.Also, it really has nothing to do with socialism. Why is our society so bent on calling everything they do not agree with as being 'socialist?' In the 50's and 60's we used 'communism.' Seems like history does repeat itself.[/citation]
You took the words right out of my mouth!!! I think most people don't actually understand what socialism is.
You took the words right out of my mouth!!! I think most people don't actually understand what socialism is.
[citation][nom]back_by_demand[/nom]If they want the card number so they can limit the number of purchases I make, that implies they are storing my credit card number in case I use it again to make another purchase.If I go into any store, not just the Apple store, is it really legal for them to store my credit card number?Isn't this just:-A) A breach of privacyB) A breach of securityIf this is the case could every customer who has ever used a credit card to buy an Apple product launch a massive class-action lawsuit? Now that's the kind of bad publicity that no retailer can afford.As for curbing grey market by tracking your card, I have a wallet with 10 differant bits of plastic, if I really wanted to, over a weekend I could stroll away with 20 iPads and "grey market" 19 of them and damn the Apple store's stupid, illegal and unenforcable policy.[/citation]
Credit card data is referred to as PCI (payment card industry) data. Your associated information is referred to as PII (personally Identifiable information). Not only is it legal to have this data, in most cases they MUST maintain your PII associated with your PCI for revenue and sales tax validation, and there are piles of laws covering explicitly how to store and protect that data.
having your personal information is not illegal. having your personal information LEAKED is not even illegal, it's only illegal to store it without following federal and state guidelines and then to have a security breach resulting from that lapse in security.
It;s not even illegal for a store to store your purchase history associated with your identity, and use it for various purposes, so long as they don't sell that data without disclaiming that they "might".
Credit card data is referred to as PCI (payment card industry) data. Your associated information is referred to as PII (personally Identifiable information). Not only is it legal to have this data, in most cases they MUST maintain your PII associated with your PCI for revenue and sales tax validation, and there are piles of laws covering explicitly how to store and protect that data.
having your personal information is not illegal. having your personal information LEAKED is not even illegal, it's only illegal to store it without following federal and state guidelines and then to have a security breach resulting from that lapse in security.
It;s not even illegal for a store to store your purchase history associated with your identity, and use it for various purposes, so long as they don't sell that data without disclaiming that they "might".
[citation][nom]mgilbert[/nom]Just another example of Apple's, "We're Apple and you're not" attitude. What an arrogant bunch. I've never bought an Apple product, and I never will.[/citation]
a few local GROCERY STORES force me to use their card to buy certain "limited quantity" sale items... i can use cash, but only if I have their ID card, and the "limited quantity" isn't just that purchase, but for the whole week and in some cases the whole month!
Dell does the same on certain products, as does almost every cell phone vendor on hot new models (which often can't be purchased using cash at all either).
This is NOTHING NEW, just one more reason for apple haters to hate apple is all.
a few local GROCERY STORES force me to use their card to buy certain "limited quantity" sale items... i can use cash, but only if I have their ID card, and the "limited quantity" isn't just that purchase, but for the whole week and in some cases the whole month!
Dell does the same on certain products, as does almost every cell phone vendor on hot new models (which often can't be purchased using cash at all either).
This is NOTHING NEW, just one more reason for apple haters to hate apple is all.
aneasytarget
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- Aug 26, 2009
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http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml
"Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."
ALTHOUGH, the woman may have a case of discrimination IF the Apple store accepted cash for other types of purchases. The news story doesn't say what state she lives in.
"Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."
ALTHOUGH, the woman may have a case of discrimination IF the Apple store accepted cash for other types of purchases. The news story doesn't say what state she lives in.
[citation][nom]fihart[/nom]...(for example) I saw a Marantz receiver in a dept store window at a ridiculously low price. When I offered that price they realised their mistake and wouldn't sell it.[/citation]
In the United States, they would be obligated to sell that item at the advertised price, even if it was a mistake on their part (doesn't work if you change the prices... that is just fraud). The only way a merchant can avoid having to sell an item at a mis-marked price is if they conspiculously post, in their place of business, that the advertised price was an error. Alternatively, they could claim to be out off stock on that item. They are not obligated to offer "rain checks."
There have been many cases of online retailers putting up something at the wrong price (I think it was Best Buy that recently put up a 60" LCD TV for $19.99 when it should have been $1999.00). Often times, they error is only caught after many (sometimes hundreds) orders have been received. They are usually obligated to honor the price (there is some provision for being able to disregard the order if the person purchased a large quantity).
At any rate, I've taken advantage of such mis-marked prices on numerous ocassions. Usually at the grocery store, after the holiday when all the sales end, there is typically a sale sign or two left up.
In the United States, they would be obligated to sell that item at the advertised price, even if it was a mistake on their part (doesn't work if you change the prices... that is just fraud). The only way a merchant can avoid having to sell an item at a mis-marked price is if they conspiculously post, in their place of business, that the advertised price was an error. Alternatively, they could claim to be out off stock on that item. They are not obligated to offer "rain checks."
There have been many cases of online retailers putting up something at the wrong price (I think it was Best Buy that recently put up a 60" LCD TV for $19.99 when it should have been $1999.00). Often times, they error is only caught after many (sometimes hundreds) orders have been received. They are usually obligated to honor the price (there is some provision for being able to disregard the order if the person purchased a large quantity).
At any rate, I've taken advantage of such mis-marked prices on numerous ocassions. Usually at the grocery store, after the holiday when all the sales end, there is typically a sale sign or two left up.
Toms, you are wrong on this. Any commercial enterprise that avails itself of interstate commerce MUST accept all legal tender, including cash.
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