Question Asus motherboard which supports ECC Memory + WiFi?

dor_13

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Recently, Intel started supporting ECC Memory with their 12th Gen Core CPUs.

I'm looking for an Asus motherboard that supports ECC Memory and WiFi.
ECC Memory seems like a difficult requirement by itself - I've been looking through their website, apparently there isn't a motherboard which supports it?
 

dor_13

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look for a business workstation from a prebuild. not likely be on consumer level

right at the article need W680 chipset
some on anandtech
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17308/the-intel-w680-chipset-overview-ecc-for-alder-lake-workstations
Since that Intel supports ECC on consumer level CPUs, I was hoping that a compatible motherboard and memory sticks would be available.
Seems like a very odd decision.

How much (GB) RAM are you planning on? If it is less than 64GB, I would recommend rethinking.
16GB. Why rethinking?
 

cAllen

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Some please explain to me why "high end consumer" motherboards have never been EEC memory compatible and always limit to 2 channels and 4 sticks. Thanks.
 
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Some please explain to me why "high end consumer" motherboards have never been EEC memory compatible and always limit to 2 channels and 4 sticks. Thanks.
It's more of a question about CPU as memory controllers are built in them. MB provides only physical and electronic connections and BIOS just enable/disable options.
ECC is only useful for high precision operations with only certain SW not usually found in general consumer usage. It would do nothing for games etc.
Maximum of 4 RAM slots is also a limit caused by CPU as it has only 2 memory controllers and provides dual channel deemed enough for 128GB of RAM. Including anything over that in general consumer CPU would invalidate highly lucrative market of Server CPUs so I wouldn't expect anything like that any time soon or ever.
Only CPUS/systems that are somewhere between servers and general use that I know are AMD Threadripper and some Xeon from Intel which are also adequately priced between server and general consumer models.
 

dor_13

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ECC is only useful for high precision operations with only certain SW not usually found in general consumer usage. It would do nothing for games etc.
What do you mean?
How is SW related to that? I had thought that ECC is an automatic operation which is done only by HW only.
Is an error regarding memory data absolutely impossible with consumer electronics?
 
What do you mean?
How is SW related to that? I had thought that ECC is an automatic operation which is done only by HW only.
Is an error regarding memory data absolutely impossible with consumer electronics?
All HW is there just for SW (including OS) to run and use features that are available but also has to be aware of those features and programmed to use them. If SW doesn't require Error correction for instance, it will be of no use for it. In general use, service of memory error correction is just not needed as accuracy requirements are much lower and ECC can also lower performance.
 

dor_13

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All HW is there just for SW (including OS) to run and use features that are available but also has to be aware of those features and programmed to use them. If SW doesn't require Error correction for instance, it will be of no use for it. In general use, service of memory error correction is just not needed as accuracy requirements are much lower and ECC can also lower performance.
What kind of features could the SW use exactly?
As far as I understand, SW doesn't need to do anything, except for defining an ISR to handle an uncorrectable error.

Full implementation of ECC (including verification and correction) by HW is common and widespread.
 

kanewolf

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16GB. Why rethinking?
ECC is probability insurance. With only 16GB RAM, the probability of a single bit error is low.
The overhead and lower performance of ECC RAM (lower clock speed) is not generally desired in desktop systems.
Why do desktop motherboards have two memory channels and four DIMM slots? Because that is the most cost effective for 99.9% of users. For someone that wants more, then Xeon or Threadripper are available.
 
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dor_13

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ECC is probability insurance. With only 16GB RAM, the probability of a single bit error is low.
The overhead and lower performance of ECC RAM (lower clock speed) is not generally desired in desktop systems.
Why do desktop motherboards have two memory channels and four DIMM slots? Because that is the most cost effective for 99.9% of users. For someone that wants more, then Xeon or Threadripper are available.
Low but exists - daily PC executions finally score the probability.
I want my data to be reliable and I'm willing to pay the extra fee (both money and performance "hit").
According to Corsair, the performance penalty is about 2% decrease in throughput - it is negligible for me.
 

DSzymborski

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I was under the impression that Intel requires a W680 chipset for ECC support on those consumer-level Alder Lake CPUs.

The odds of a consumer, even one with significant processing needs, ever directly sees a consequence of an error of this type are astronomical. I personally do a lot of work with Monte Carlo simulations and non-parametric modeling and have never had the slightest need.

If your needs are such that even this very slim probability is crucial to you, then it's important enough that you should be looking at server motherboards that are designed for that work.
 

Aeacus

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Coming from this, now closed topic: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/build-with-ecc-memory-wifi.3771432/

--

I was under the impression that Intel requires a W680 chipset for ECC support on those consumer-level Alder Lake CPUs.
W680 and R680E as well. Rest of the 600-series chipsets doesn't support ECC.

Here are those MoBos what i found;
  • Asus R680EI-IM-A
  • AsRock IMB-X1233-WV
  • AsRock IMB-X1231
  • AsRock IMB-X1314
  • AsRock IMB-X1712
  • Supermicro MBD-X13SAE
  • Supermicro MBD-X13SAE-F
Quite slim choice, also, price tag is according as well. Checked Supermicro MoBos and 500 bucks is what they go for. Not to mention higher cost of ECC RAM. Oh, Asus MoBo supports ECC only with Xeon CPU. Didn't check the rest of the MoBos that close.

For consumer, ECC is waste of money.

I want my data to be reliable
We all want, but on consumer level, there are far better redundancies than ECC RAM. For example: NAS and/or RAID. <- These keep your data safe. And of course, UPS as well, to avoid blackouts, which can corrupt your OS/data (and at worst, kill your hardware too).

According to Corsair, the performance penalty is about 2% decrease in throughput - it is negligible for me.
Is handing out 500 bucks for a workstation MoBo also negligible for you? Or 100 bucks for 16GB DDR4 2400 Mhz ECC RAM?
 

cAllen

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FWIW...since there are no LGA 1700 XEON CPUs right now.

https://hothardware.com/news/intel-alder-lake-xeon-server-cpu-w680-block-diagram
 

Aeacus

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Is handing out 500 bucks for a workstation MoBo also negligible for you? Or 100 bucks for 16GB DDR4 2400 Mhz ECC RAM?
In contrast of above, 600 bucks is enough to get the full build. Like this one:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600 3.3 GHz 6-Core Processor ($229.98 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus PRIME B660M-A D4 Micro ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($54.99 @ Corsair)
Storage: Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($49.99 @ B&H)
Case: Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L TUF Gaming Edition MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($64.98 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: SeaSonic FOCUS GX 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($104.23 @ Amazon)
Total: $624.16

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-07-25 06:45 EDT-0400


So, this further proves that ECC RAM and workstation MoBo, which alone cost 600 bucks, is huge waste of money.
 

Aeacus

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I think this more boils down to one's priorities.
There's nothing wrong with priorities. But when priorities doesn't factor in the cost of said workstation hardware and instead are more in-tune to low-end consumer grade, then priorities should be changed.

Now, i came form 2nd topic OP made, and in there (link above in my reply), OP's budget for the whole build is $500. Feel free to read that topic as well, it gives quite a nice overlook what OP is wanting.
 

Eximo

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From Wikipedia, you get a little more stability with DDR5, as the chips have ECC. Though there are still the standard complete ECC DIMMs with 9 chips instead of 8.

Unlike DDR4, all DDR5 chips have on-die ECC, where errors are detected and corrected before sending data to the CPU. This, however, is not the same as true ECC memory with an extra data correction chip on the memory module. DDR5's on-die error correction is to improve reliability and to allow denser RAM chips which lower the per-chip defect rate. There still exist non-ECC and ECC DDR5 DIMM variants; the ECC variants have extra data lines to the CPU to send error-detection data, letting the CPU detect and correct errors that occurred in transit.[23]
 
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dor_13

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Coming from this, now closed topic: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/build-with-ecc-memory-wifi.3771432/

--



W680 and R680E as well. Rest of the 600-series chipsets doesn't support ECC.

Here are those MoBos what i found;
  • Asus R680EI-IM-A
  • AsRock IMB-X1233-WV
  • AsRock IMB-X1231
  • AsRock IMB-X1314
  • AsRock IMB-X1712
  • Supermicro MBD-X13SAE
  • Supermicro MBD-X13SAE-F
Quite slim choice, also, price tag is according as well. Checked Supermicro MoBos and 500 bucks is what they go for. Not to mention higher cost of ECC RAM. Oh, Asus MoBo supports ECC only with Xeon CPU. Didn't check the rest of the MoBos that close.
How did you find those MoBos?
The Asus website doesn't give much details about this MoBo:

We all want, but on consumer level, there are far better redundancies than ECC RAM. For example: NAS and/or RAID. <- These keep your data safe. And of course, UPS as well, to avoid blackouts, which can corrupt your OS/data (and at worst, kill your hardware too).
How's NAS or RAID related ?
ECC for memory provides reliability for the data which transfers from Controller to DRAM memory and back.
It "protects" the data while it is being stored in memory + "protects" the data while it is being transferred.
NAS or RAID are only for storage - they could store the errors...
UPS is another issue with respect to my needs.

Is handing out 500 bucks for a workstation MoBo also negligible for you? Or 100 bucks for 16GB DDR4 2400 Mhz ECC RAM?
Of course I'd prefer less, but market is limited.

In contrast of above, 600 bucks is enough to get the full build. Like this one:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600 3.3 GHz 6-Core Processor ($229.98 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus PRIME B660M-A D4 Micro ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($54.99 @ Corsair)
Storage: Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($49.99 @ B&H)
Case: Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L TUF Gaming Edition MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($64.98 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: SeaSonic FOCUS GX 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($104.23 @ Amazon)
Total: $624.16

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-07-25 06:45 EDT-0400


So, this further proves that ECC RAM and workstation MoBo, which alone cost 600 bucks, is huge waste of money.
I appreciate your help though the Asus MoBo doesn't support ECC Memory.
 

Aeacus

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How did you find those MoBos?
Simple: Google.
(I have "some" Google-Fu skills. :sol: )

The Asus website doesn't give much details about this MoBo:
Download the manual and read that. It's all written in there.

How's NAS or RAID related ?
Those are related as in data backup.

If you only have single copy of your data, and when it gets corrupted, you have no backups to pull the original back. Hence why NAS and/or RAID help.
Further reading from here: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/what-is-your-backup-situation-at-home.2997205/

ECC for memory provides reliability for the data which transfers from Controller to DRAM memory and back.
It "protects" the data while it is being stored in memory + "protects" the data while it is being transferred.
NAS or RAID are only for storage - they could store the errors...
Yes, NAS and/or RAID can store errors, if the file that you move from live to storage is corrupted. But for that, there are safeguards in place (e.g file verification prior to back up).

Now, getting errors in RAM, is so slim, that it just isn't cost effective for end user. For all the time i've been with PCs (20+ years now), i have yet to see my consumer grade RAM producing corruption in my files.

Though, even if you get your workstation MoBo with ECC RAM, there is no protection against the Windows itself. Since none of the software code that is written, is 100% perfect. The tiny bugs that are within any software code, is enough to eventually corrupt the data they handle. Now, it may take 5, 10 or more years, but no software is ever "corruption proof". And here is where NAS and/or RAID comes into play. Since when your data eventually gets corrupted, you have a backup (preferably offline), from where to take your data again.

I appreciate your help though the Asus MoBo doesn't support ECC Memory.
That build is the consumer example, of what you could get with your very limited budget.

Of course I'd prefer less, but market is limited.
It is limited.

Now, those MoBos what i found, only Asus and Supermicro MoBos support DDR5. The rest support DDR4.

DDR5 does have on-die ECC (explained by @Eximo ) and if you want to go with DDR5, the choice comes down only to Supermicro MoBos. I checked and both MoBos go for almost 500 bucks. Also, both are ATX, so, the dream of yours having micro-ATX or mini-ITX build is also out of the window.

Another option, to get the Asus mini-ITX MoBo with ECC RAM working, would be going with Xeon CPU and ditching your i5-12600 idea. But the cost of Xeon CPUs will skyrocket, fast.

Regarding the on-die ECC on DDR5;
DDR5 DRAM allows implementation of 8-bit ECC storage for every 128 bits of data to protect the memory array against single-bit errors.
  • On-die ECC is an advanced RAS feature that the DDR5 system can enable for higher speeds.
  • On a read operation, the DRAMs read out both the actual data as well as the ECC code and can correct any single-bit error on any of the read data bits.
  • As this scheme does not offer any protection against errors occurring on the DDR channel, on-die ECC is used in conjunction with side-band ECC for enhanced end-to-end RAS on memory subsystems.
Source: White paper (M-WP009) on "Migration to DDR5 Memory Modules" by SMART Modular Technologies

How to find the white paper:
  1. Go to https://www.smartm.com/
  2. In search, type in "migration"
  3. Download the "M-WP009 Migration to DDR5 Memory Modules" white paper (it's in *.pdf)
So, if you go with DDR5, besides having on-die ECC, you'd also want DDR5 module to have side-band ECC as well. <- Finding such RAM is quite an ordeal. Paying for it is another story since side-band ECC RAM is far more expensive than RAM without any ECC (or on-die ECC).
 
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cAllen

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dor_13

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Simple: Google.
(I have "some" Google-Fu skills. :sol: )



Download the manual and read that. It's all written in there.



Those are related as in data backup.

If you only have single copy of your data, and when it gets corrupted, you have no backups to pull the original back. Hence why NAS and/or RAID help.
Further reading from here: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/what-is-your-backup-situation-at-home.2997205/



Yes, NAS and/or RAID can store errors, if the file that you move from live to storage is corrupted. But for that, there are safeguards in place (e.g file verification prior to back up).

Now, getting errors in RAM, is so slim, that it just isn't cost effective for end user. For all the time i've been with PCs (20+ years now), i have yet to see my consumer grade RAM producing corruption in my files.

Though, even if you get your workstation MoBo with ECC RAM, there is no protection against the Windows itself. Since none of the software code that is written, is 100% perfect. The tiny bugs that are within any software code, is enough to eventually corrupt the data they handle. Now, it may take 5, 10 or more years, but no software is ever "corruption proof". And here is where NAS and/or RAID comes into play. Since when your data eventually gets corrupted, you have a backup (preferably offline), from where to take your data again.



That build is the consumer example, of what you could get with your very limited budget.



It is limited.

Now, those MoBos what i found, only Asus and Supermicro MoBos support DDR5. The rest support DDR4.

DDR5 does have on-die ECC (explained by @Eximo ) and if you want to go with DDR5, the choice comes down only to Supermicro MoBos. I checked and both MoBos go for almost 500 bucks. Also, both are ATX, so, the dream of yours having micro-ATX or mini-ITX build is also out of the window.

Another option, to get the Asus mini-ITX MoBo with ECC RAM working, would be going with Xeon CPU and ditching your i5-12600 idea. But the cost of Xeon CPUs will skyrocket, fast.

Regarding the on-die ECC on DDR5;

Source: White paper (M-WP009) on "Migration to DDR5 Memory Modules" by SMART Modular Technologies

How to find the white paper:
  1. Go to https://www.smartm.com/
  2. In search, type in "migration"
  3. Download the "M-WP009 Migration to DDR5 Memory Modules" white paper (it's in *.pdf)
So, if you go with DDR5, besides having on-die ECC, you'd also want DDR5 module to have side-band ECC as well. <- Finding such RAM is quite an ordeal. Paying for it is another story since side-band ECC RAM is far more expensive than RAM without any ECC (or on-die ECC).
Thanks.
I've come across errors which I couldn't explain and obviously I don't have the time or the means to debug this.
Regardless, with the new build - the importance of free errors becomes much higher than my current (old) build.
Also see "DRAM Errors in the Wild - A large scale field study".
 

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