BootVis and startup

eden · Mar 28, 2002

I was wondering, I often have to use BootVis to return to a fast startup state, but why after 1 day does it begin to degrade until 3 days later it comes back to long startups (7 green notches become 12 after 3 days)?? Is it in a way related to the fact I use FAT32 instead of NTFS which was better used with it?

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

bront · Mar 29, 2002

Move to NTFS. The Windows NT Kernal has problems with FAT32.

I had a FAT32 drive that I couldn't access in 2000, it turned out the second FAT table was corupted, but the first one was fine. 98 fixed it up, but 2000 couldn't do a thing with it, and wanted to reformat it.

If you have a filesystem error, your system is toast with FAT32

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies postin', my fingers are swollen, Rawhide!

Toejam31 · Mar 29, 2002

That's not exactly true. Win2K and WinXP fully support the FAT32 file-system format. NT 4.0 can't interpret FAT32 drives without a third-party add-on's help, and under no circumstances can NT 4.0 boot from a FAT32-formatted drive. Because FAT32 handles space more efficiently than FAT16 does and can also handle larger disk sizes than FAT16 can, FAT32 is a better file system format for installations that don't require NTFS's reliability or security features. Many Win 9x installations use FAT32 for the advantages it confers over FAT16, so Win2K's support for FAT32 makes it possible to share data on FAT32 drives between the OS's in dual-boot environments. Instead of adding a new device driver to implement FAT32 in Win2K, Microsoft simply extended the FAT12/ FAT16 driver, \%systemroot%\ system32\drivers\fastfat.sys, to understand FAT32.

NTFS version 5 was developed for Win2K, and is the superior file system, but that does not mean that the modern NT kernel has issues with FAT32.

<A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/ntfs/verNTFS50-c.html" target="_new">NTFS 5.0</A>

<A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/osWin2000-c.html" target="_new">Windows 2000</A>

I think perhaps you could have used some of the tools on this page in the past:

<A HREF="http://www.systweak.com/fat32/fat11.htm" target="_new">Fat32 & File System Guide - Crash Recovery Tools & Procedure</A>

The only major file system error I've had while running FAT32 in both Win2K and WinXP was the result of an irrecoverable hard drive crash. And once the drive was replaced, all that was necessary was to partition the drive, and place a previously-created image on the partition to be up and running.

NTFS 5 is better for recovering from errors, but that doesn't mean FAT32 is impossible to manage in comparison.

Sounds like you just had some bad luck.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
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____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

Toejam31 · Mar 29, 2002

How often do you defrag your hard drive?

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
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____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Mar 29, 2002

Quite often, man I noticing no change in using Defrag in WinXP!
The WinDefrag, Norton Speed Disk (which takes 3 hours to defrag my damn 15G, Symantec found it being a bug with no fix) and Vopt, none of these optimized my comp. Programs still take time to launch, in Win98 using Speed Disk made a huge difference. I was opening progs that took 10 secs in 6 seconds! OE6 was opening lightening fast compared to now, and I am using a 7200rpm drive compared to 5400RPM before!
Now since I found out about BootVis, I thought it would save me from waiting too long in startups, sadly the thing then degrades in time! So I was wondering if NTFS had different results!

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Mar 29, 2002

Converting to NTFS won't make much of a change in your boot time, IMO. I've got a consistent 23-24 second boot time in WinXP, and that's with FAT32.

Something else is slowing down your boot time, and your program launch speed.

Let's check a few areas.

Is DMA enabled for your IDE controller channels?
Have you installed the latest chipset drivers for your mainboard?
How much physical memory do you have? I'd suggest 256MB for good results, with the "sweet spot" being 512MB.
Have you disabled all unnecessary components from running at startup? Start\Run\MSCONFIG.
Have you disabled, or set to manual all unnecessary <A HREF="http://www.blkviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm" target="_new">Services</A>?
Have you disabled the System Restore feature?
When using the BootVis tool, have you checked to see if any of your drivers are causing the system to slow down? Are you running with the latest drivers for your hardware?
Have you run a thorough CHKDSK on the hard drive to check for possible errors on the hard drive?

In my opinion, Diskeeper 7.0 is the best tool for defragmenting a hard drive in WinXP. I run mine everyday, and while it is not the world's fastest utility, it certainly takes less than 3 hours! And it also allows for boot-time defragmentation, which can place the directories at the top of the partition, and it can also defrag the paging file and MFT.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Mar 29, 2002

-Is DMA enabled for your IDE controller channels?---Yes
-Have you installed the latest chipset drivers for your mainboard?---Yes, the VIA 4 in 1s from their site only updated the PCI IDE and added INFs.
-How much physical memory do you have? I'd suggest 256MB for good results, with the "sweet spot" being 512MB.---256MB, but I know 512MB could really help, I play alot and exiting games is sometimes slow, Matisaro recommended 512MB when he saw the diff from 256 to 512.
-Have you disabled all unnecessary components from running at startup? Start\Run\MSCONFIG.---Yes
-Have you disabled, or set to manual all unnecessary Services?--Yes
-Have you disabled the System Restore feature?---No, I find it being very needed sometimes, but I wish I knew how much it slowed.
-When using the BootVis tool, have you checked to see if any of your drivers are causing the system to slow down? Are you running with the latest drivers for your hardware?---Not yet, how does the Trace feature work anyway?
-Have you run a thorough CHKDSK on the hard drive to check for possible errors on the hard drive?---There is no thorough option! But I do CHKDSK sometimes, otherwise when system crashes and I get a Scandisk at startup, but I haven't seen that thing for weeks now since latest patches including no more BSODs from nv4_disp.dll!

Is that program in WinXP or should I DL it? Also when you said it rearranges the startup directories, it means to help faster startup? I was about to make Vopt arrange the Page File to top of the drive for faster access, but it takes time and I couldn't go on!
Obviously something is slowing startup, because my cousin upgraded his 733MHZ P3 with 128MB RAM, 30G drive to WinXP, and he gets 4 notches only, when his drive is partitioned and filled to the brim! Mine is also filled like hell, only 2Gigs left of 15G.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!Edited by Eden on 03/29/02 03:40 PM.

Toejam31 · Mar 30, 2002

Thanks for answering the questions.

This time around, could you list some system specifications? Processor, mainboard, hard drives, etc ... such as I have in my sig?

I'd also like to know how your hard drive is partitioned, and if WinXP is the only operating system that you are running. How is it that your 15GB drive only has 2 GB left ... what is stored on the drive that takes up so much space? How large is the partition that contains the operating system?

Here are a couple of pages that might help you tweak the system startup even farther:

<A HREF="http://www.xp-erience.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=131" target="_new">Windows XP Startup Tweak Guide</A>

<A HREF="http://www.windows-help.net/WindowsXP/tune-19.html" target="_new">Improve Boot Performance</A>

I'm not sure that you mean by "notches" with the BootVis tool. ??? How many seconds does it actually take for your system to start from a cold boot?

The program I mentioned is a another Disk defragmenting tool. I can't compare it with VoptXP, because I've never used that particular program.

There is a thorough option to scan the hard drive, although it is not identified as such. Open My Computer, and right-click the hard drive icon. Go to Properties\Tools|Error Checking. Click the Check Now button, and select both options. "Scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors" is the option I was referring to ... similiar to the thorough option for Scandisk in Win9x.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Mar 30, 2002

AthlonXP 1600+
Volcano 7 HSF with 2 case fans
256MB DDR PC2100, although it's PC2400 in real.
Epox 8KHA+
SB LIVE! 5.1 DE
Asus V8200 T2 Pure, DetXP 28.32
Maxtor 15GB drive Master 7200RPM, Fugitsu 6.4GB Slave 5400RPM
Antec P303X 300W
Dlink Net card+DSL internet
WinXP Home

No partitions whatsoever, WinXP is installed on the main drive which is also used for all my games, apps. The 6.4GB is rarely used(it was the Primary Master in my old comp), mainly backup and to transfer big files such as movies downloaded.
By notches, I mean when you see the splash screen of WinXP, there are little green bars(blue for Pro)swinging left to right. I count them to know how fast the comp is or how lagging it has become to start. I used to get the average of 6 notches, which now are 12-13.

I doubt I have any Disk Errors, I don't encounter any probs on my drive's sectors, no bugs or crashes irregularly unless the app was pushed too far, like in games Alt-Tabbing isn't always friendly to all.
I'll try your defrag program when I find out first if I need it by all your next answers.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!Edited by Eden on 03/29/02 10:09 PM.

Toejam31 · Mar 30, 2002

You've done your best to post the necessary information, and I appreciate that.

However, the best suggestions I can make at this point would be to check for upgrades for all driver sets, and examine the Event Viewer for possible errors that might be occurring during startup. And to to use a watch to check the actual speed of the boot, instead of by counting the notches. I'm not sure that this is a reliable method of determining the true speed of the boot process. What should be of more concern than this, IMO, is the time that it takes to launch or shutdown a program while in the GUI.

I can send you some WinXP links, if you wish, that might help you determine the source of the problem.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Mar 30, 2002

I went to event Viewer under Application Errors, but how do I know which are from Startup? I got like 10 daily appearing.
I also had all drivers updated so far, except Dlink which came with WinXP's drivers, and I guess by WinUpdate if needed. But I do regularly use WinUpdate and have it update in background if necessary so all drivers should be compatible and up to date.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Mar 30, 2002

You should look under both Application and System in the Event Viewer for errors. Each individual error can be right-clicked, and under Properties, you can get more information. The Event ID numbers and the error messages are generally searchable at the <A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?ln=EN-US&pr=kbinfo&" target="_new">Microsoft Knowledge Base</A>, or from <A HREF="http://www.google.com/advanced_search" target="_new">Google</A>, which is my preference. This may help you pinpoint the source of the problem(s).

I would suggest that you DO NOT allow WinXP to automatically udate the system and drivers. There have been some errors recently attributed to this, such as installing Intel drivers for IDE controllers on VIA mainboards. You should examine each download carefully, make your decision as to whether it is actually needed, and/or is applicable for your hardware configuration.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Mar 30, 2002

Oh yeah definitly, it warns me before installing so I choose to do so or not. In many cases they are IE6 patches, but I never ran into an auto-update having drivers to install. That I visit the WinUpdate for it.

However I have yet to Trace my boot, so I will try to soon (my bro has his account on WinXP open, so I simply can't reboot without him logging his stuff off!) and report. I am sure this is the best way. I'd really like to solve the problem of BootVis' optimizations being useless after 2 days. My other prob was system not as fast, but I think I am going to get 512MB RAM instead, many have recommended this as the sweet spot. Look, I know WinXP is slower than Win98, and that progs tend to be slower to open, but I thought that my new system's power would compensate that, or that the defragmenting would help, which it isn't! No defrag program has yet to provide me what I got in Win98's SpeedDisk, 30% performance boosts in opening apps.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

eden · Mar 30, 2002

As for the green notches that indicate startup speed, I don't really time it and don't really think it's a good way to find out startup speed, but it does show that if there are twice the notches passing before login, there is something that slowed down the system startup!

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

eden · Mar 31, 2002

Ok I did the Trace+Driver Delay, I got a BIN file. Would you like me to e-mail you the file?
I don't quite get the graphs, it says Boot Done at 35.05 secs, but what boot part? The one before it switches to the login? It still doesn't help however, it shows no devices delaying boot, which I need to know so I can know why BootVis' opt doesn't help anymore 2 days later as startup speed degrades.

Also forgive if I get this wrong since I don't quite understand it all perfectly but, I read in the results box that I have 512 bytes per sector. Is that normal? I thought FAT 32 uses 4KB Clusters? I'm confused!

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!Edited by Eden on 03/31/02 05:41 PM.

eden · Apr 3, 2002

Bump back up for Toejam, where are you?!

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

eden · Apr 7, 2002

bump again for ToeJam

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Apr 7, 2002

Man, I'd really like to continue to help you with this, but it would be a case of the blind leading the blind.

I only ran the BootVis tool for about an hour, disliked what I saw, and deleted it. I could never get the utility to actually make any changes to the boot files (it just sat there for thirty minutes and did nothing), and when I noticed that it had slowed down the boot ... I got rid of it.

Since Microsoft in their infinite wisdom decided that they would not bother to include any help files with the utility, you know just as much about the program as I do, if you checked out the links I posted. And so, in other words, emailing me the .BIN file wouldn't tell me much that would be of much use for either one of us.

The best I can tell you ... a fresh installation of WinXP, without installing unnecessary programs, (such as Norton SystemWorks, except for the Anti-Virus portion of the program) ... keeping redundant files out of the startup, installing the latest drivers and updates for your software and hardware, and running a good disk defragmenting program are the best ways to have a speedy boot in WinXP. And flashing the BIOS to the latest version can also make a difference. Older BIOS versions on the mainboard can definitely slow the boot process down.

I can give you some information on FAT32 clusters. I know that is not exactly what you are looking for, but it won't hurt to learn something new.

<A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/part-i.htm" target="_new">Partitioning, Partition Sizes and Drive Lettering</A>

I hadn't been ignoring you. But I was hoping that someone else who had some real experience with the program might step in and add some information you could actually use. Apparently, that isn't going to happen.

Perhaps you should consider contacting Microsoft Technical Support, explaining the situation, and see what they have to say. If they give you an intelligent answer, you could post it here and educate the rest of us!

Perhaps you'll be able to find some information on this <A HREF="http://www.xp-erience.org/download.php?op=viewdownload&cid=1" target="_new">website</A> that might help you speed up the boot process and tweak the system.

Sorry that I hadn't contacted you sooner than this.

Toejam31

P.S. If you'll post the information about any error messages found in the Event Viewer Logs, it's possible to check those out, and see if the problem is due to a unsigned or older driver or program. But if I can't see it, I can't fix it.

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Apr 8, 2002

Could you hand me the link for DiskKeeper for WinXP?
You've said a lot about it, and it seems that it might be the helpful tool.
I had noticed my friend's startup once changed to NTFS, had changed from 16 Blue bar notches, to 4 constant! That is the kink of bootup I want, but the problem is, I'd gladly switch to NTFS if it weren't for the problem that might occur: computer suddenly is slower than before.
Many people have had it and that worries me sick!
Also can you provide any link or info, to how to maintain and properly use an NTFS drive on WinXP, so that my performance ALWAYS remains as good or better than back in FAT32?
And finally, are there any problems or any read problems that can happen if I converted my C: drive only and kept the E: Slave under FAT32?

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Apr 8, 2002

<A HREF="http://www.diskeeper.com/execsoft.asp" target="_new">Diskeeper 7.0</A>

<A HREF="http://www.labmice.net/Windows2000/diskmgmt/filesystems.htm" target="_new">NTFS Disk Maintenance</A>

Since the latest version of NTFS 5.0 was developed for Windows 2000, the links on the page above are also applicable for WinXP.

I can't think of any problems resulting from leaving your E: partition as FAT32 once the C: partition is converted to NTFS, as Win2K and WinXP have full native support for both file systems. Both drives will be visible from the GUI.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Apr 8, 2002

What can you comment about the problem many people are getting while converting?
And based on your personal experience, what kind of problems or downsides MIGHT occur from converting a FAT32 system to NTFS?
I am more than sure that converting would eliminate this boot up problem... If my friend can reduce his boot time by up to 4X fold just by converting, I am more than willing to try it, once I have all the assurance.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Apr 8, 2002

The only conversion problems in WinXP I have seen are these:

When converting a 60GB (or larger) partition that is FAT32, it's possible to receive an insufficient memory error.

This is because the largest partition that can be converted with only 64MB of RAM in the system is 40GB. The solution for this problem is to install at least 128MB of RAM.

Two, the conversion will fail if the partition was NOT formatted with Windows XP.

Therefore, if you have at least 128MB of RAM, sufficient space on the partition for the conversion, and formatted the partitions on the hard drive with the WinXP CD, there should be no difficulty with the file system conversion.

The only downside I can think of due to having a NTFS file system is that it can't be correctly identified from DOS without a third-party tool. Of course, the conversion is one-way, so if you don't like it, the only way back to FAT32 is with a utility like Partition Magic, or a disk utility from the manufacturer that can perform a low-level format (zeroing out the disk).

You should be aware that using Partition Magic to convert a NTFS volume to FAT32 is a distructive procedure, and you will undoubtedly lose all the data on that partition. And on the primary partition, it may fail, with a "Data is compressed or Sparse" error, and abort the conversion.

<A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q307881" target="_new">HOW TO: Convert a FAT16 or FAT32 Volume to NTFS in Windows XP (Q307881)</A>

<A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q156560" target="_new">Free Space Required to Convert FAT to NTFS (Q156560</A>

<A HREF="http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/tech/storage/ntfs-preinstall.asp" target="_new">NTFS Preinstallation and Windows XP</A>

This is an excellent resource, but also a very large .PDF file, so consider yourself warned in advance!

<A HREF="http://www.thaifast.com/Cramsession/WinXPPro.pdf" target="_new">Installing, Configuring, and Administering Microsoft Windows XP Professional, Version 3.1.0</A>

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

eden · Apr 8, 2002

What do you exactly mean by formatted from WinXP CD?
What I can tell you, is that my local PC shop, had formatted my old Win98 system, and now the 15GB Master has WinXP installed Freshly over a formatted drive. It's FAT32 of course. I have 256MB DDR. Am I protected from those slowdown problems?

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

eden · Apr 8, 2002

BTW I had seen that Free Space needed for converting a FAT to NTFS on WinXP article, but never bothered to read it entirely. It is much complex, and I could not understand what to do. Maybe you could sum it up in one line on how to calculate or what is to evaluate before converting?

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Toejam31 · Apr 8, 2002

During the operating system installation, there is the option to delete or create partitions, format the partitions as FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS, or keep the existing file system.

How your local PC shop formatted the hard drive is impossible for me to ascertain. if they formatted the disk as FAT32 with an older Windows startup disk, and decided keep the file system intact before installing the operating system ... then yes, you could have a problem.

You shouldn't see any problems due to memory, considering the amount you have in the system, as long as the modules are viable.

If you had continued to read the document I sent you about the free space, you would have seen the method used to determine the amount of free space needed for the conversion.

"Convert.exe performs a computation based on the number of preexisting files on the FAT volume and size of the volume to figure out how much free space is required before starting the conversion process. For standard hardware (hard drives with 512 bytes per sector) the equation boils down to the following:

Start by taking the size of the volume, in bytes, and dividing by 100. If this value is less than 1,048,576, use 1,048,576. If it is larger than 4,194,304, use 4,194,304.

Add to the above the size of the volume in bytes divided by 803.

Add to the above the number of files and directories on the volume multiplied by 1280.

Add to the above 196,096.

The above computation closely mirrors the computation performed by Convert.exe. The exact result obtained on a given system may differ slightly.

NOTE : This is the free space required by Convert.exe before it will attempt a conversion. The computation includes an allowance for the possibility that bad sectors may be encountered in the FAT free space. However, in cases where a volume has just enough free space to begin the conversion, and a significant fraction of drive space is discovered to be unusable, the conversion process may fail. As discussed above, this should not result in any disk corruption. The volume should automatically fall back to being recognized as FAT."

I really can't explain this any better. It's simple addition.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">Toejam31's Tantalizing Tantric Toy</A>
Second Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=15942" target="_new">Toey's Dynamite DDR Duron</A>
____________________________________________________________

"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

BootVis and startup

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