Cyberpower’s Gamer Dragon: Can AMD Bring The Game?

[Schip]

*When

 

[Schip]

Now I feel like an idiot. Cleeve said right in his post that the review should be up in a week or so. I'm a doofus!

 

[osse]

And thanks Cleeve for proving to me that i can use Toms as a refrence when i recomend a build.

Still i have one request........ Be the first to do a real build off between Amd , Intel, Nvida. I dont know off what the normal pricepoint in other contries.

Dou to the fact that I7, and motherbord is so eksenisve that it is, i havnt benched my builds vs an I7 setup like u did, say u have 1300$ as the smb build u did, what would be the conclusion for a rig with 790fx AM2+ (there are quite a big diffrense for 790FX for AM3) 2 4870, i doubt that u can fit 2 4890 in that pricerange, and an vertex.

For an i7 with or without an vertex, there is just a start up diffrense at 12 sec, and for thoose who has tested a rigg with a SSD, well u want go back.

Do u have the opertuinty to do a "real" dragon setup where u use the priceadvantage for an SSD, shifthing it over 2 4890 instead of 4870, does not give the same benefit, why u can ask, well a phenom ii is on the edge of the graphic soluition it can support with 2 x 4870, if u want 3 or 4 x 4870, then I7 is the only cpu that can feed that.

But u Intel guys u know i fear the I5, it probally will be lot harder for the Phii than core2. , And due to that I5 will have cheaper motherboards, it will be a tuff match for the dragon in the mid range.

 

[osse]

And for those u dont know, why im i talking abaut the vertex, the vertex is the lowest priced SSD without some of the clitches the real chap once have, it is abaout iops and things like that, the real king of SSDs, it is an intel x25 but its lot more expencive thatn an vertex.

But if ur a first person shooter gamer, actually an intel x25 is the way to go, reduce the cpu power and go singel 275 or 4890. And SSD will secure that u dont get framedrops, even better than 8 gb of memory can. Why u can ask, that is couse u dont have to have the cyles in ur chace first as u do with the swap file. This goes for i7, phii (ok also phi , but phi was a disapointing, it has so littel headroom) I dont know if a SSD can stop the framedrops that an core2 have.

 

[cleeve]

Well Osse, I'm not sure what you're asking for. You want a super-cheap Phenom II build to bench against an i7?

I don't know if that makes sense.

I mean, say the Phenom II build is hundreds cheaper. Do I build the i7 with a single Radeon 4350 and the Phenom II with a 4890? What would be the point of comparing those kinds of builds?

I would hope most folks already know that if you want a gaming machine there's no point in getting an i7 and pairing it up with a video card as weak as a GeForce 9500 GT.

As far as what the SSD can do for you, to me it sounds like you're more interested in an SSD review, not a Phenom II vs. i7 review.

 

[osse]

I also know since im talking abaut this subcet, both sli and cf is good, but even if if 2x4770 can outperform a 4890 and a 275, cf and sli does have some hickups, iT dosnt mather in strategic gameing, but in a first person shoter game, u cant have hickeups at all, if u have a framedrop and ur mouse dosnt respond couse of that, well ur dead and ur opponet are smiling. Yes both sli and cf has become a lot better, but i doubt that a "profesianal first person shoter gamer trust either sli or cf, it is abaut milliseconds who shot first, been there done that, and im sadly not to good with that, so i stayed in games where u have to use ur brain instead of ur recctioin as u do in first person shooter games.

I bet there are alot of u first person shooter gamers on this forum, u will all know what im talking abaut, avrage frame rate doesnt meen a shit there, it is have a fluied game play that does matter

 

[osse]

No Cleeve
i want u to set up the best Dragon build u can, againt ur SMB build
not a super cheap one, but i does have to have an vertex or better in it.
Im not so familar to the the prices on newegg.

But i saw there is a 60$ pricedifrent or more from a am2+ 790fx motherboard and an am2 790fx motherbored.

For gaming the 720 phii will do as good as the 940 and 955, this due to nature of the programs. but u need a 4 core to do battel with the i7
so we have the 940.

And when u go cf, 790fx do more than ddr3 can, both motherboard and memory are cheaper

but a 3 core cant stan aginst the i7 in other benches as a 4 core

 

[osse]

Well ,plain and simpel , i hope u can do the same price for an dragon setup against ur 1300 build

But dont waste it in phii955

what i hope u can do is put in an SSD becouse as u said its room for it.

I recon u have to go to phii940, what second, to ensure that u get 3,8 of the 940 is that u need a better cooler.

The 955 is well its dosnt hold its own against the 940

same as i7940 dont hold its own agains the i7 920.

 

[cleeve]

Osse, it still sounds like you want to see an SSD vs. conventional hard disk review.

People can put the money they save on the Phenom II in their pockets or put it towards whatever they want. If they want to put it towards an SSD, great.

Now, my original intention was to answer the question "Does the money saved on a Phenom II vs. an i7 allow it to beat an i7 when gaming if that money uis applied towards the graphics cards?". I've now answered that to my satisfaction.

Having done that, I'm not going to spend all of my time pitting Phenom vs. i7 rigs with every possible budget and hardware permutation. Where does it end? Do I make an i7 system with an SSD and pit that against a quad-crossfire Phenom II? Do I make an i7 system with a 400w PSU because it saves cash and put it up against a Phenom II with a 1000w PSU? Do I build an i7 with a single gig of RAM and a Phenom with 8GB? etc, etc.

I'm not saying an SSD vs. conventional hard disk review isn't a good idea, I'm saying I don't see the value in spinning it as a Phenom II vs. i7 piece. If people know they can save money on the Phenom II, theres all sorts of things they can do with that cash, including buying SSDs.

 

[osse]

Cleeve, just the best dragon build off against ur smb build, i know u also know its a rigs total performance that matter, not cpu vs cpu or gpu vs gpu.

Not cheaper , spend the same, thats a rig build off. If u go 1500 us $ then there is no contest, couse AMD dosnt have any cpu that can come close to the power of the I7, when u take into conisiration the gains.

But look at what u did with ur 1300$ build, u said 260 is good enough, yes it is. Who cares abaut fps over 60, 2 x 260 provides that.

same as 2 x 4870 also does that.

But then we have all the other acpects. Since in ur 13000 build off there is no room for a SSD, there is if u go core2 or phii. Well i hope u can set up a rig like this:

phii 940
790 FX board (am2+ , couse the 790FX with AM3 is to ekspensie) the motherboard does need to have 750 northbrige, this is due to overclocking.

if there is room for 4890, yes ok, but in 1920x1200 phii is on the edge of what grapic soulution it can support, so 2 x 4870 will do as well , it would be not 10 -15 % better as 4890 is better than the 4870, it would be marly 5-8% better. So in a way using the dollars for 4890 is a waste, if u want an overall good rigg.

Sadly i seen on the prices that u cant fit an intel x25 in the rigg.

But no mistake, use the same amount of money on the dragon rig, minimum vertex in, and u need the 790fx chipset. It givers more in games than DDr3 do

When i say i wish u on Toms will do real builds off, what i meen abaut that is pure and simpel put a limet as u did on ur SMB builds, find the best componets that u can fit in that envolope.
Test them against eachother.

For the one with no limits the answear is clear, it is intel and nvida, they have the cpu crown and the gpu crown, but few has the dollars to build riggs like that.

And arnt we all most concered to know what rig gives us the best rig for the money. I meen in all round use.
So what u did now and what ur doing in ur follow up, is putting to simular priced rigs up against eachother, that is what i want u to keep dooing, becouse u know as well as me that a cpu or a cpu is just a part off a rig. Its the best overall setup that does matter.

 

[osse]

Smiles, are u missing the point. if u have 1300$ and yes 1300$ can give u an i7 and 2 x 260 gtx. Is that to best, u can in that envolope also fit in an SSD, just as powerful gpus, and a bit weaker cpu. Have u read the tests of SSDs, and have u tried one in ur rig

Even thoose im pale as they come, some girls says when u go black u dont go back, its the same with SSds

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]osse[/nom]So what u did now and what ur doing in ur follow up, is putting to simular priced rigs up against eachother, that is what i want u to keep dooing, becouse u know as well as me that a cpu or a cpu is just a part off a rig. Its the best overall setup that does matter.[/citation]

So you're not talking about a specific article then, you're suggesting we change our System Builder Marathons to have multiple builds compete against each other at the same price point instead of three different price points?

This is a separate issue, something we've been discussing in the office since the last SBM where som many people got upset if their particular CPU choice wasn't used in the builds.
We haven't decided exactly how we're going to deal with this yet, but I'll take your suggestion into consideration.

 

[osse]

@Cleeave

I read almost all test on SSDs to, the conclusion is clear its Way better than convetionl disks.

But the sames goes for gpus, cpus, chipset.

Im a builder, and i take pride in building the best rig for the budget i get. And yes i know nothing can tuch an I7 vs any cpu.

But u are a reviewer so u should know that one of the main bottelnecks in a rig is the hdds, raptor has been the best, to compeat with raptor u had to go raid with 7200 rpm disk.

I said it before and i say it again, what i loved abaut this article was that is was rigs that cost the same u reviewd, with diffrent hardware.

That is the way to go Cleeve, and this follow up u have discovered something new.

But honestly Cleeve and all readers here, arnt we looking for the best rig our money can buy.

Doesnt many uf us ask us the question, what if we sarifise some cpu power and get some more HDD power, what is the best.

That cleave u can be the first to answear, u set limits moneywise, u find out what compintainton of hardware that do best, that is what we all want to know, is our rig the best for what we paid.

Yes i know ur just used to do cpu vs cpu, gpu vs gpu, in cpu tests its importent that the gpu dosnt botelneck, in gpu vs gpu its importent that the cpu doesnt botelneck.

But a cpu or a gpu or a hdd they are usless alone, what is the best compinatian, its amazing how much u can do with 100 dollors more when u build a rig. It is.

Am i wrong when i say we all want the best rig, for what money we have. ??

So the SMB build was a good start, i enjoyed that serie, but it didint had a runner up, since there is only 2, and i for sure hope "there can be only one" expand that SMB put up the best , and what u think it is second best, bench them against eachother, that is pure rig vs rig tests

Check the reviews, if i rember wrong , starting up windows vista take 12 sec longer if u dont have an SSD, and thats on an I7, what shell that tell u, if ur a logic person that should tell u that there is a bloke in town, that change the picture.

 

[cleeve]

I'm still not really clear on what you want, Osse. I can see you've written a lot, but what is your point?

One paragraph or less please, what are you suggesting?

 

[osse]

Smiles, Cleeve ur starting to think like a builder.

Have 3 pricepoints, i dont know how much resurses u have. Our main site in norway has become "fudzilla" just copying other sites news.


But u know im right its not what cpu that is best, put limits check the options, use natural limits, i been a builder since 1992, today here in norway the limtis goes for budget 6000 nkr , thats round 930 us (6,41 dollar vs nkr) then u have the next 8000 nkr and the next 10000 nkr, and then u have the high end 12000 or more. this is without os and lcd screen. For a low budget i always recoment 16xx x 10xx, its hard to find screens with lower resolutin that that. 1280x768, well there arnt many lcd left with that resuolution and they are dirt cheep. Well the interwall as i experiend it goes every 300 dollars.

But as i said earlier, look at the response to this article, and u know ur on to something that other sites dosnt do, they dont do real builds off.

 

[cleeve]

Osse! That's 4 paragraphs, and I still can't understand what you want.

Focus! One sentence! What are you asking for?

 

[osse]

@Cleeve

What i want u to do is put up system containg AMd on one side Intel/ AMd or Intel /nvida on the other side. Same as the SMB build. But as rewiers i want u to also consider when is the pricepoint an SSD can do more than cpu power, or gpu power.

If u try that u be the first site in the world that tries to use ur ecpertise to put up builds vs eachother, and that my friend will atract a lot of readers.

 

[osse]

Well what i want u to consider, lets say u was building an all purphose rig at say 1300, 1000, 700 us without screen and os.


Excamine as u did now, is it more efficict to put the money in cpu power, gpu power, or hdd power.

But the screen and os also has to be considered, its a darn diffrent thing to build for a 1920x1200 screen than a 1650x1080 screen. And there is time u dont build for games, u build for one that do a lot of video editing, then the HHD speed really comes in, who care if there is a 1 sec dif between cpus, when it can be 10 sec diff with the hdd setup

 

[osse]

In a sentecne

I want u to rig builds off containing all 3 major suppliers, AMD, Intel , Nvida. And take in considing the often forgotten 4 parth, the HDD performacne.

Cpu and Gpu has had an ectradorniry good performacne increasese.

WHile the Bottelneck for many systems is The HDD, it has improved, more chache, 8, 16,32, u have the raptor with 15000 rpm, but there was nothing really new before the SSD.

 

[osse]

Have one suggestion for Toms and u, well u have the AMD fanbois on one side, then the Intel fanboys on the other.

Put up a vote what would be the best amd setup and intel setup, u have the expertise to know what is best, give say 3 options of Intel/nvidda, Intel/AMd vs the dragon. Then u have what u revwiers forget, couse ur so hung up in cpu vs cpu, gpu vs gpu, u forget that all parts from cpu, gpu, memory, hdd, chipset all has to to mach eachother.

That would give a lot of readers, and lots of readers atract sponsors, and comercial income for u, Cleeve u was on to something with this article, be bold, go on, ur doing a follow up, and it will atract readers to. But was what really interstesing abaut the 1300 SMB vs cyperpower, was the performanse, and u havnt seen once that i said u was wrong with ur first article. Smils only thing that was wrong was "its an Phenom best case"

Do something none have done before u, do real builds off. Most of us hardware geeks, say oh ists just a new cpu vs cpu review, or gpu vs gpu review.

U be the first, and u have the resurces to do it, and it will atra t readers, do it fair and Toms will earn a lot on it.

 

[cleeve]

Jesus Christ Osse, that's four posts and 14 paragraphs you made me dig through again. Not one who values the straight & to the point stuff, huh?

After all that, you want to see Intel vs. AMD builds at the same price point that takes HDDs into account.

Essentially you're saying the same thing you've been saying for many pages, aren't you?
You want to see a Phenom II build with an SSD against an Intel build without an SSD?

I addressed that a long time ago. I'm not interested in doing that comparison, I think it belongs in an SSD vs. Standard HDD article, not in an AMD vs. intel build-off.

 

[osse]

Cleeve u rember when AMD challange Intel to put up their netburst against the athlon, intel didnt answear, i think ur the man to go where no other reviwers have gone. U have probally more knowlage than me, smash AMD and Intel at same pricepoint, give a shit abaut fanboys, just tell us what is best , but no bench picking, u have to test the systems beyond benches, what does feel best to use, how do they respond, do real world tests.

Well that said, if u go i7 , gtx 295 and intel x25, there is nothing better there out there. But wery few of ur readers can afford that.

I seen it numerusly , those who dont know they put up a singel 260 and I7 and things they done a barging. When the fact is even an phii720 and a 260 does as well with a 740 g chipset, when it comes to games. Hey how is that u can ask, well, when the cpu is not a bottelneck the i7 is supiriour, well not with the gtx 280, there both phii and core2 do better than an i7, that is to ur own tests off it.

 

[cleeve]

Osse, I don't know how to say this any plainer than that I just don't think this kind of article would be all that interesting. I don't think an SSD is going to make a notable imopact on the minimum FPS like you do. I simply don't agree that it warrants an article.

I tell you what, I'll delve a little deeper into SSDs and see if there's some merit to your idea. But from what I've seen to date SSDs help you boot & launch apps a little quicker.

I don't care if my gaming machine takes a little longer to boot, I care more about performance, and I don't believe an SSD make a big impact on minimum FPS.

 

[osse]

For a reviews a SSD vs regualar hdd is maybe boring, but what abaut thoose who use the rigg.

U know im right even an I7 with regular HHD suffurs from that , its a 12 sec start up diffrense, even an i7 with a regular hdd can make ur proggys pop up the moment u click on them, even an i7 with sli cant provent framedrops. Any entusisiat rig needs an SSD, the question is how far down can u go before the cpu/gpu power can counter that.

U say it dosnt belong in this , well are u talking from ur knowlage now. Yes ur right I7 is superior, but if not build right then it is like a gay man lost with 20 pretty girls. U dont get any. .

U did something new with this article Cleeve, and im pretty sure u know what i meen, u have knowlage how to build, it is a decent 1300$ rig u put up. All respect for that.

But as a builder i woudnt have putted a 2x4890 up against that, i would have sacrifised a littel cpu power, a littel gpu power, then i would put all on one card, the vertex.

And as a reviwer u know why i would do that. I dont have the means to confirm im right, u do !

U know as well as i do, a rig with an vertex or better is a joy to use compared to any rig with regular 7200 rpm disks.

 

[cleeve]

Looking into it quickly there aren't a lot of gaming benchmarks using SSDs. There's a notable one on Anand, but the only game they benched was Crysis, and they used the damn GPU benchmark so the camera is constantly flying through the level (unlike playing the actual game), and it is therefore a worst-case-scenario for texture loading.

Is it a real-world scenario for texture loading? Probably not. But in this scenario intel's X25-M SSD recorded double the minimum FPS of the slowest conventional HD, and 25% faster than a velociraptior. having said that, the OCZ/G.Skill SLC SSD performed exactly the same as the velociraptor, and the OCZ/supertalent/Patriot MLC SSD performed the same as a regular WD Green 1 TB drive. So really, for anything worthwhile you have to drop at least $320 on the Intel X25-M 80 GB drive, vs. a $180 150GB velociraptor... I don't know, man. Good luck saving $250 on a Phenom build, and then only being able to use an 80GB hard drive because there's nothing in the budget for a regular HDD. _Plus, no space for games!

I might look into this deeper in an article, but I won't be pitting AMD vs. intel off the hop for sure... if I do this, it will be on a single platform so we can better analyze the data coming off of it. If it proves to be a large factor, we'll consider an AMD vs. intel build in the future, but no promises.