GTX480 / GTX470 Reviews and Discussion

[strangestranger]

Say what?

That last post made no sense whatsoever.

 

[builderbobftw]

Uhhhh, I'm pretty sure that ATI/nVidia have deals with their chip manufacturers that they get a discount based on the percentage of faulty chips and the yields, etc. So the 5850/5830/470 chips do NOT cost the same as a 5870 or 480. Correct me if I'm wrong TGGA.

GRRRRRRRRRRR

Read the post!


I said it costs ATI the same to make a 5870/5850/5830.

Not that the board parteners pay the same goddamn ammount!

 

[demonnn]

i do not believe that 4x0 has different image quality... i think the image quality is up to the render (engine) and the settings. corret me if i'm wrong

 

[mindless728]

i do not believe that 4x0 has different image quality... i think the image quality is up to the render (engine) and the settings. corret me if i'm wrong

no it matters between cards, or rather it used to matter, though the different vendors do use slightly different algorithms to compute a scene resulting in a slightly different image

 

[Guest]

IQ is same, tested with HD4850 vs GTX280

People say ATi has better IQ but I couldn't see it with my eyes...

 

[SV_Bubbles]

Lol 225 to be profitable, that would be shity tiny profit margins along with if it does perform like rumors say like a 5850 hell if it even competes with the 5830 which runs at 250 nvidia wont sell lower then ati, it's not in their interest when they have lower stock and high production cost.

ATI can sell lower because they move more product one would assume because they have more stock. Pretty sure it will be like 1 more sm disabled and cost just at a 5850 or under if it performs like it i'm talking like 10 dollars under.

It will have the tessellation performance but will just be generally at the point where the performance for previous tessellation-less DX10/11 games is tapping too far into last gen's GTX 260 territory. It won't be a failure, surely, but at over 250$ I don't believe it will be the sweet spot that the 260 fell into (at the time). Be it that even a GTX 280 is on par or better than the 5830, a 460 falling just below a 5850 is just not enough gain over the previous "sessions" honey suckle imo. The 470 looks like the next 260 to me; never mind that these cards are the entry series into DX11 and the weak ones will be killed quickly if the reminiscent of the power-house G80 being brought to it's knees by DX10 holds true (not even mentioning the Radeon 29xx).

Babble all summed up; DX11 is going to have it's way with these first gen cards quickly and then send em' back to the corner so don't go cheap or venture onto 460 or 5830 street if your looking for a long-term relationship. 😉

 

[SV_Bubbles]

IQ is same, tested with HD4850 vs GTX280

People say ATi has better IQ but I couldn't see it with my eyes...

no it matters between cards, or rather it used to matter, though the different vendors do use slightly different algorithms to compute a scene resulting in a slightly different image

Left over fable from 10 years ago or the Metro comparison blown out of proportion. 1 or the other may have better AA but that's about it and has been for years now.

 

[strangestranger]

AF used to be a big one before the 8800's came out. Before then there was clear differences.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Uhhhh, I'm pretty sure that ATI/nVidia have deals with their chip manufacturers that they get a discount based on the percentage of faulty chips and the yields, etc. So the 5850/5830/470 chips do NOT cost the same as a 5870 or 480. Correct me if I'm wrong TGGA.

Deals are pretty hard to know and change alot with production variables even cost per wafer are tightly guarded early in the process. They likely get some discount with the early debacle in 2009 and early 2010, but usually you don't get a discount for poor yields due to design so much as due to process. Yields have improved on the 40nm process overall so likely the option for discounting is no longer offered.

Here's the thing, you guys are both kinda wrong and kinda right.

First the chips cost what the chips cost, you pay for the wafer, not the final chip, so if you get a discount due to poor yields then you get $1,000 off the cost of the wafer, not $20 for an HD5830 and $10 back for and HD5850. So technically the 5830 costs the same as the 5870 at the die level. Although remember before they added the 5830 SKU the value of the chips that could only make that level of usefulness were unused and essentially garbage, so the HD5830 chips are essentially gravy left over from cooking the prize Goose (5870/5890) and Chicken (5850) which are the ones that are built in to production so you could consider the cost of production for the 5830 dies as 0, or else you cost average them with the other two (thre if the HD5970 is a speed binned 5870) chips. Alot of that depends on how 'built-in' the HD5830 was/is to production plans.

Poducts like the HD5830 and likely GTX460 are only added if there is a high enough defect rate that you can create a production SKU from the garbage bin that is worth putting onto a card and marketing. Any profit you can get from them means you reduce the overall cost of production which helps all products and could turn a money losing design into a break-even or profitable design, or speed up the ROI on R&D and give you the accounting option to move on if you want to (although that's more a justification than a plan often, since you want to wring out as much money as you can, but also always be pushing forward). But remember that's ATi's side of the equation, they just sell the dies and then bang it's gone to the AIB for the next step, so it may be considered as a 0 cost product, but it ends at ATi.

Now it's time for the AIB who definitely doesn't buy the HD5830 chips for $0 so then you get into the marketing and deals for those, is the pricing 150/100/50 ? and does AMD require you buy a certain number of each before being offered the HD5830 chip, or even the other way around if the pricing is higher where they require you to buy X number of the 'garbage' in order to get the golden goose, etc (this is supposedly the case with Fermi where AIBs are forced to still buy G200/G92 chips in order to get any allotment of Fermi chips).
The other thing about this is the cost of producing the boards, the HD5830 board doesn't cost as much as the HD5870 board let alone 5970 board, so for the AIB it's a combination of the two and that influences their costs/pricing depending on the cost of making the additional boards and such, but usually the low end card (GPU+board) costs significantly less than the high end cards to make.

Hope that helps explain it.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Left over fable from 10 years ago or the Metro comparison blown out of proportion. 1 or the other may have better AA but that's about it and has been for years now.

Actually ATi still has better AF, but the difference is so minute as to be irrelevant nowadays. AA also differs and depends on which you prefer.

But really even just because of render methods, the output is now never the same so the old difference comparisons are useless now.

 

[shadow187]

Oh my God.

TGGA;

I love you and your walls of text.

Now a question for you;
Do you think ATI has huge profit margins on their HD5K series?

 

[rofl_my_waffle]

A production run won't create a lot of perfect chips with all working stream processors for the 5870 or even rarer low core voltage chips for the 5970. Some become the 5850 and 5830 because they don't run up to speed.

The average cost for a processor is $50. This is including an overflow of low end chips that simply won't sell and ones that don't even meet low end speeds. This is only for the 58XX cards and 5970. The lower end cards uses a slightly different design that cost less.

Throw in the PCB, packaging, and distribution. A card would probably run for $100. A low end 5830 would have less profit margin than a 5870. A 5970 would cost around the price of 2x5870s

 

[shadow187]

So if they've binned chips for the HD5970, they probably don't have enough accumulated to market an HD5890 unless they do some architectural changes so that the functioning chips-per-wafer are met.

 

[rofl_my_waffle]

They definitely need to increase yields to put a 5890 on the market. A 5970 chip can clock to 950mhz with barely any extra voltage. But if thousands of people place orders there isn't enough chips to meet demand anyway.

 

[builderbobftw]

Waht?

The 5970 has no defects.

 

[Guest]

5970 cores are said to have less power leakage, so cooler and runs @ less voltage.
My old Sapphire 5970 would do 950Mhz@1.162v and 1Ghz@1.26v but the ram would never pass 1175, XFX Black edition ones hitting 1300Ram. Current 5850/5870 hit 1300 easly on the ram but prolly need more voltage @ 950Core. Some 5870 ships with 1.12v Vs 1.16v. Why does the Black Edition clock higher on ram,Higher Ram voltage ? But OCd, the 5970 pulls way more Watts than the 480 ~400w@1Ghz!My whole room would heat when I fire up a 3D game and I could feel the heat under my desk :lol:

 

[IzzyCraft]

That's a feature soothing heat to relax you after a long days work. Why do you think it was built into the fermi! Amazing how much ATI gets mention in a nvidia thread anyways anyone heard any news of the GF104 106 etc or we just left with current rumors.

 

[shadow187]

If it's just a spinoff of the Fermi arch, there won't be any low-power gaming cards.

 

[Guest]

Prolly coming in June.

 

[notty22]

GF104 Nvidia mainstream card real
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/18404/1/
The chip is much smaller than recently launched Fermi-based Geforce GTX 480 and 470 and our sources expect that this product might be the next “8800 GT”.

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/18243/34/
The guys at 3dceter.org managed to dig up some rather interesting info on Nvidia's upcoming GF104. Nvidia will launch the GF100 card in less than 12 hours, but it will be a couple months before we see Fermi-based mainstream and entry level cards.

According to 3dcenter, the performance GF104 core will feature 256 shader cores, 64 TMUs, 32 ROPs and it will utilize a 256-bit memory bus. The chip should appear in three cards, although we're not sure about their designation. The purported GTS 450 should end up slightly faster than the HD 5830, but it will probably cost a bit more as well, probably somewhere in the €200 to €230 range. The GTS 440 should end up around 20 percent slower than the GTS 450 and it will cost between €160 and €180. It is expected to outperform AMD's HD 5770.

The third card, apparently branded GTS 430, will pack 192 shader cores, 48 TMUs, 24 ROPs and a 192-bit memory bus. It should match the HD 5770 in terms of performance and it will cost between €130 and €150.

Mainstream and entry level versions, based on GF106 and GF108 cores, should follow soon. GF106 cards will sell between €60 and €100, depending on the SKU, while the GF108 will take care of the entry level market in the €30 to €40 price range.

However, bear in mind that these cars should launch in June at the earliest. The specs and brands could still change, so we caution you to take them with a grain of salt.

 

[shadow187]

That's a bunch of bullshit. How can something 20% slower than, "a bit better than the HD5830" be expected to perform better than the HD5770.

 

[Guest]

No heat problems with low end, so jack up the MHz.

 

[shadow187]

If it has the tesla-based arch, it'll probably still have power/heat problems. If not, then it won't have the same tessy/DP perf.

 

[SV_Bubbles]

I thought to be the next hot cake card it needed to have a good price/performance ratio and fit into a 10 percent slot from the fastest card (8800GTX), not literally perform like an old 8800GT. Hopefully nV is turning wrenches on a driver rev., only hope here.

If it has the tesla-based arch, it'll probably still have power/heat problems. If not, then it won't have the same tessy/DP perf.

I'd imagine it would. If it doesn't, it better be cheaper than expected.

 

[mindless728]

If it has the tesla-based arch, it'll probably still have power/heat problems. If not, then it won't have the same tessy/DP perf.

well, don't expect a lot of DP performance out of these cards since it has been crippled on the consumer cards (1/4th speed)