I See Dead People

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Greetings!

I am currently trying to convert old Voodoo: The Shadow War and Spirits
Advantages to 4E. I am having a few problems with "able to see and interact
with spirits". Here is what I have so far:

In Voodoo, each level of Initiation gives the ability to perceive more of
the spirit world, supernatural manefestations, etc. There are 4 levels:

1st (5 points): A successful IQ roll allows you to sense any spirit
presences, or to detect another Initiate, within IQ/2 yards. This manifests
as a "gut feeling," tingling sensation, or the like.
2nd (15 points): Same as above, with an increase in range to IQ yards.
3rd (40 points, includes Empathy; net 25 points): You can sense paranormal
manifestations within IQ yards (no roll), and can pinpoint their source with
an IQ roll. You can also hear spirits.
4th (70 points, includes Empathy, Intuition, and Ritual Adept; net 35
points): You can see and hear spirits within IQ yards and sense supernatural
manifestations within IQx5 yards.

In all cases, sentient manifestations and Initiates can hide from you with a
Quick Contest of Will. Note also that these point values include other
benefits not inlcuded above).

Spirits has Awareness (from CI), which allows you to sense the presence of
spirits with an IQ roll (subject to long distance modifiers). It also
references Medium, which does the same thing, and allows you to hear spirits
and speak to them. I did not see an Advantage that allows you to see them.

In 4E, Awareness becomes Detect. I have thought of a few ways to model
this; however, results are not very satisfactory. For one, everything has
to have the Reduced Time Enhancement, because I do not want concentration to
be necessary. Here is what I have so far come up with:

Detect (Spirits), Occasional, Reduced Time (+20%), Vague (-50%): 7 points

This would detect the presence or absense of spirits only on a Sense roll.
This approximates the 1st and 2nd levels above, for spirits only. Of
course, Medium (10 points) is vastly superior, allowing you to perceive and
communicate with spirits (you cannot see them, but know when they are
nearby), as well as call spirits.

Detect (Supernatural Beings), Common, Reduced Time (+20%), Vague (-50%): 14
points

This is a bit better, as it would allow the detection of the presence of
In-Betweeners, Initiates, etc. However, it does not price well with Medium.

Detect (Supernatural Beings), Common, Reduced Time (+20%): 24 points

As above, but it tells you direction and quantity.

Detect (Supernatural Beings & Phenomena), Common, Reduced Time (+20%): 36
points

Better level; allows the detection of spell effects, etc., which is more in
keeping with the Voodoo "style". However, we still do not have anything
that resembles actually *seeing* spirits, and we do not know the precise
distance.

Detect (Supernatural Beings & Phenomena), Common, Precise (+100%), Reduced
Time (+20%): 66 points

Now we have spent a fairly obscene amount of points, and *still* cannot
actually see spirits.

Perhaps if we refined it so that the "Precise" only covers beings, not
phenomena.

Detect (Supernatural Beings & Phenomena), Common, Precise (supernatural
beings only, +100%), Reduced Time (+20%): 56 points

How can we get a power to actually see spirits? What else will work for
this?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:

> I am currently trying to convert old Voodoo: The Shadow War and Spirits
> Advantages to 4E. I am having a few problems with "able to see and interact
> with spirits". Here is what I have so far:

You will be happy to know that POWERS will cover this in more detail.

> In Voodoo, each level of Initiation gives the ability to perceive more of
> the spirit world, supernatural manefestations, etc. There are 4 levels:
>
> 1st (5 points): A successful IQ roll allows you to sense any spirit
> presences, or to detect another Initiate, within IQ/2 yards. This manifests
> as a "gut feeling," tingling sensation, or the like.

You can use either Detect or a limited version of Medium.

> 2nd (15 points): Same as above, with an increase in range to IQ yards.
> 3rd (40 points, includes Empathy; net 25 points): You can sense paranormal
> manifestations within IQ yards (no roll), and can pinpoint their source with
> an IQ roll. You can also hear spirits.

Start with Medium and add some Detect: Paranormal.

> 4th (70 points, includes Empathy, Intuition, and Ritual Adept; net 35
> points): You can see and hear spirits within IQ yards and sense supernatural
> manifestations within IQx5 yards.

For +50% Medium allows a character to see spirits.

[snip]

> What else will work for this?

If a character sees the "spiritual realm" use Dark Vision. Alternatively,
you can price a new visual sense based on Scanning Sense.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Jefferson" <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:113ujkcathill71@corp.supernews.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> I am currently trying to convert old Voodoo: The Shadow War and Spirits
>> Advantages to 4E. I am having a few problems with "able to see and
>> interact with spirits". Here is what I have so far:
>
> You will be happy to know that POWERS will cover this in more detail.

I certainly hope so. Do you have some inside information on this?

>> In Voodoo, each level of Initiation gives the ability to perceive more of
>> the spirit world, supernatural manefestations, etc. There are 4 levels:
>>
>> 1st (5 points): A successful IQ roll allows you to sense any spirit
>> presences, or to detect another Initiate, within IQ/2 yards. This
>> manifests as a "gut feeling," tingling sensation, or the like.
>
> You can use either Detect or a limited version of Medium.
>
>> 2nd (15 points): Same as above, with an increase in range to IQ yards.
>> 3rd (40 points, includes Empathy; net 25 points): You can sense
>> paranormal manifestations within IQ yards (no roll), and can pinpoint
>> their source with an IQ roll. You can also hear spirits.
>
> Start with Medium and add some Detect: Paranormal.

Hmm...not too bad.

>> 4th (70 points, includes Empathy, Intuition, and Ritual Adept; net 35
>> points): You can see and hear spirits within IQ yards and sense
>> supernatural manifestations within IQx5 yards.
>
> For +50% Medium allows a character to see spirits.

I like this suggestion. I can add some Detect mojo to that and be pretty
good, I think.

> [snip]
>
>> What else will work for this?
>
> If a character sees the "spiritual realm" use Dark Vision. Alternatively,
> you can price a new visual sense based on Scanning Sense.

Not a bad idea either. I think your Medium enhancement is the best
suggestion (with Detect for other stuff).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Jefferson" <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:113ujkcathill71@corp.supernews.com...
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>>I am currently trying to convert old Voodoo: The Shadow War and Spirits
>>>Advantages to 4E. I am having a few problems with "able to see and
>>>interact with spirits". Here is what I have so far:
>>
>>You will be happy to know that POWERS will cover this in more detail.
>
> I certainly hope so. Do you have some inside information on this?

I was on the playtest.

[snip]

>>>What else will work for this?
>>
>>If a character sees the "spiritual realm" use Dark Vision. Alternatively,
>>you can price a new visual sense based on Scanning Sense.
>
> Not a bad idea either. I think your Medium enhancement is the best
> suggestion (with Detect for other stuff).

That's what I would use for Voodoo's Initiation. The Dark Vision idea
comes from some other stuff I worked on
(http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Magic.html#RohainMagic). I
love the way 4e handles senses. You may have to do a bit of work for the
exact ability you want, but everything's there, and it's balanced (unlike
sonar/radar in 3e).

Jefferson

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Jefferson" <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:113uuhekt23ts9b@corp.supernews.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Jefferson" <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:113ujkcathill71@corp.supernews.com...
>>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am currently trying to convert old Voodoo: The Shadow War and Spirits
>>>>Advantages to 4E. I am having a few problems with "able to see and
>>>>interact with spirits". Here is what I have so far:
>>>
>>>You will be happy to know that POWERS will cover this in more detail.
>>
>> I certainly hope so. Do you have some inside information on this?
>
> I was on the playtest.

Good enough.

>>>>What else will work for this?
>>>
>>>If a character sees the "spiritual realm" use Dark Vision.
>>>Alternatively, you can price a new visual sense based on Scanning Sense.
>>
>> Not a bad idea either. I think your Medium enhancement is the best
>> suggestion (with Detect for other stuff).
>
> That's what I would use for Voodoo's Initiation. The Dark Vision idea
> comes from some other stuff I worked on
> (http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Magic.html#RohainMagic).
> I love the way 4e handles senses. You may have to do a bit of work for
> the exact ability you want, but everything's there, and it's balanced
> (unlike sonar/radar in 3e).

That'll be nice to work with.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:

> How can we get a power to actually see spirits? What else will work for
> this?

How about See Invisible (Spirits) [15], as suggested on p. F131?

doug

--
"But her sense of taste is such that she'll distinguish with her tongue
The subtleties a spectrograph would miss..."
--Brian Eno

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Douglas Bailey" <trystero@world.std.com> wrote in message
news72ds0mgrk3t.dlg@snernce.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> How can we get a power to actually see spirits? What else will work for
>> this?
>
> How about See Invisible (Spirits) [15], as suggested on p. F131?

I like the 50% Enhancement to Medium a bit better; it costs the same, and
accomplishes exactly what I want (sight and sound).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> Douglas Bailey wrote:

>>> How can we get a power to actually see spirits? What else will work for
>>> this?
>>
>> How about See Invisible (Spirits) [15], as suggested on p. F131?
>
> I like the 50% Enhancement to Medium a bit better; it costs the same, and
> accomplishes exactly what I want (sight and sound).

Weirdly enough, I can't see anything that says you *need* a power in order
to hear spirits: they're Invisible, after all, but there's no mention of
them being inaudible.

doug

--
"It's not peculiar; there's nothing to devise at all..."
--Hüsker Dü

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Douglas Bailey" <trystero@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:4q7tcbj4r144$.dlg@snernce.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Douglas Bailey wrote:
>
>>>> How can we get a power to actually see spirits? What else will work
>>>> for
>>>> this?
>>>
>>> How about See Invisible (Spirits) [15], as suggested on p. F131?
>>
>> I like the 50% Enhancement to Medium a bit better; it costs the same, and
>> accomplishes exactly what I want (sight and sound).
>
> Weirdly enough, I can't see anything that says you *need* a power in order
> to hear spirits: they're Invisible, after all, but there's no mention of
> them being inaudible.

I believe they need to spend Fatigue in order to be heard.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> Douglas Bailey wrote:

>> Weirdly enough, I can't see anything that says you *need* a power in order
>> to hear spirits: they're Invisible, after all, but there's no mention of
>> them being inaudible.
>
> I believe they need to spend Fatigue in order to be heard.

Not the spirits in _Basic_ 4e, at least: Insubstantiality explicitly allows
you to converse with substantial beings, and AFAICT there's nothing else in
the _Basic_ spirit meta-traits that would affect conversation.

The spirit meta-trait in _Fantasy_ 4e, by comparison, includes Mute
(Substantial Only) by default, and offers one option whereby this disad can
be overcome by spending FP.

I prefer the _Fantasy_ version, myself.

doug

--
"Oh, what a pearl; what a well-made world..."
--Wire

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Douglas Bailey" <trystero@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:10jtke6l5unsi$.dlg@snernce.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Douglas Bailey wrote:
>
>>> Weirdly enough, I can't see anything that says you *need* a power in
>>> order
>>> to hear spirits: they're Invisible, after all, but there's no mention of
>>> them being inaudible.
>>
>> I believe they need to spend Fatigue in order to be heard.
>
> Not the spirits in _Basic_ 4e, at least: Insubstantiality explicitly
> allows
> you to converse with substantial beings, and AFAICT there's nothing else
> in
> the _Basic_ spirit meta-traits that would affect conversation.
>
> The spirit meta-trait in _Fantasy_ 4e, by comparison, includes Mute
> (Substantial Only) by default, and offers one option whereby this disad
> can
> be overcome by spending FP.
>
> I prefer the _Fantasy_ version, myself.

Well, it *is* the only one under which Medium makes sense.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Douglas Bailey wrote:

>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>
>>Douglas Bailey wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>Weirdly enough, I can't see anything that says you *need* a power in order
>>>to hear spirits: they're Invisible, after all, but there's no mention of
>>>them being inaudible.
>>>
>>>
>>I believe they need to spend Fatigue in order to be heard.
>>
>>
>
>Not the spirits in _Basic_ 4e, at least: Insubstantiality explicitly allows
>you to converse with substantial beings, and AFAICT there's nothing else in
>the _Basic_ spirit meta-traits that would affect conversation.
>
>The spirit meta-trait in _Fantasy_ 4e, by comparison, includes Mute
>(Substantial Only) by default, and offers one option whereby this disad can
>be overcome by spending FP.
>
>I prefer the _Fantasy_ version, myself.
>
>doug
>
Here is a template I wrote up for spirits a while ago.

Spirits

Where do spirits reside? Sometimes we can see them or hear them, some
are said to haunt specific locations or items, and we all have a spirit
inside of us that gives us life. However, the normal rules of the
material world do not seem to apply to them. They can travel instantly
to appear for a summons or to give a message to a loved one. Although
they can have a presence in the material world, they cannot truly be
said to reside here.

Where do they exist? Everywhere. Nowhere. In our hearts and minds,
our fears and hopes and thoughts and desires. It is a question without
a meaningful answer, for the spiritual realm is not one of place or
location. Nevertheless, when they make their presence felt in the
material world, the spirit must once again deal with concepts of linear
measurements, shapes, area, and volumes. This presence is but a
projection of the spirits true nature, however, and its essence does not
reside in any particular place.

Spirits have no mass, no matter, no energy in the physical sense of the
word. They are not composed of any physical quantities such as
electromagnetic fields or vapors. Since they have no physical nature at
all, spirits have no ST or HP. None. A spirit has no body to push open
a door, and no physical effect of any kind can go to the non-place where
a spirit truly is and do it harm. Spirits do have IQ, Will, Perception,
and Fatigue. When their presence is felt in the material world, they
also have Speed, Move, and DX. Will replaces HT for all purposes.
Spirits can have any advantages or disadvantages of a mental or
spiritual nature, as well as sensory-based physical advantages or
disadvantages that they use when projecting into the material world
(exception - the only Scanning Sense available to a spirit is Para-Radar).

Spirits emit or reflect no light, make no sound, leave no molecules
that can be picked up as a taste or odor, exert no pressure and have no
temperature, yet there are those who can sense them. Sometimes this is
just a feeling, with no sense impression at all. Other times, spirits
can be seen and heard by sensitive individuals. When those so gifted
perceive a spirit, they get a mental visual image of the spirits
self-image, and can hear the spirits "voice" projected into their head.
These impressions can often be startlingly realistic, looking like real
people, or sounding like actual moans, screams, or voices.

Spirit Template; 13 points

Attributes: ST 0 [-100]

Secondary Characteristics: HP 0 [0]

Advantages: Clairsentient (cosmic(symbolic)+50%, cosmic(projection)+50%,
cosmic(free motion)+50%, no range -30%)[110]; Doesn't Breathe [20];
Doesn't Eat or Drink [10]; Unaging [15]; Detect (supernatural phenomena
and beings (very common)) [30]; Telesend (broadcast +50%,
comic(passive)+50%; cosmic(symbolic)+50%, video (self image only, only
perceived in spirit's projected location)+8%, only on those with detect
supernatural beings -50%) [62]

Disadvantages: Dread (exhibitions of True Faith (occasional)) [-10];
Fragile (Unnatural, based on FT rather than HP) [-50]; No manipulators
[-50]; Cannot Speak [-25]; Taboo Trait (fixed HP) [0]; Taboo Trait (HT =
Will) [0]; Taboo Trait (fixed ST) [0]

Cosmic (symbolic) (+50%): The power has no maximum range. To affect
something beyond its normal range, it works along symbolic links. To
use the power along a link, concentrate for one second and make an IQ
roll at a penalty for the quality of the link. If the power uses range
modifiers, use the best modifier for either range or link quality. If
taken with any other advantages which affect the power's relation to
distance, range, space, or geometry, they stack. To have a power that
is only usable along a link, take the No Range limitation (-30%).

Cosmic(projection) (+50%): For Clairsentience, this enhancement allows
the character to use all of his mental or spiritual powers with a range
calculated from his point of perception, rather than the location of his
body. The reverse also holds, however - others target you with mental
or spiritual powers with the range of your point of presence, not your body.

Cosmic (free motion) (+50%): For Clairsentience, this enhancement
allows the character to change the direction and position of his point
of view without concentration. This is as easy as normal motion. He
can move at a speed equal to his (DX+Will)/4, rounded down, without
concentration. Extra Clairsentient movement can be purchased for 5
points for +1 to move. If you cannot also change your position or
return to your body by concentrating, take the No Range limitation (-30%).

Cosmic (passive) (+50%): When taken for Telesend, this enhancement
means the character does not need IQ rolls to broadcast his thoughts.
Others can perceive the thoughts with a Perception roll with a modifier
of plus your Will+SM. The range modifiers from the Size and Speed/Range
Table apply. Most of the time, you do not need to bother rolling for
nearby targets, assume they "hear" automatically. This bonus,
incidentally, is the equivalent of shouting at the top of your lungs,
most of the time you will Telesend more quietly.

Fragile (Unnatural, based on FT rather than HP) [-50]: When your
Fatigue total reaches -1×FP, your spirit dissipates forever, never to
return. Game over, make a new character.

With this, the spirit usually "lives" in a mental realm of
associations, dreams, and imagination, but (with a second of
concentration and an IQ roll) its perception can follow any symbolic
link. If this takes it to the material world, it can move its point of
presence about freely at a speed of up to its (DX+Will)/2, and use any
powers it has on material objects or other projecting spirits with a
range calculated from its point of presence to the object or the other
spirit's point of presence. Any sensitive individual (including other
spirits) can sense the spirit and, if the spirit so wishes or if the
sensitive makes its detect analysis roll, the sensitive can see the
spirits self image as a vision as if it were located at its point of
presence. The spirit can talk to these individuals, even broadcasting
its "speech" so that anyone in the area can hear.

The concept of symbolic links is important to spirits. Here is what I
wrote up about symbolic links:

Symbolic Link

When working magic, physical details like range and distance are
unimportant. What is important is your symbolic link to the target of
the spell. The more closely you can symbolize the target, the smaller
the penalty.

Generally, if the target or its sympathetic talisman is present and
available for the entire ritual, the symbolic link is considered
perfect, and there is no skill penalty for a link. A brief but direct
touch or eye contact with the target or its talisman is considered an
excellent method of designating the target, and gives a -2 to skill. If
either the target or its talisman can be seen (or detected by any other
targeting sense natural to the caster such as an Infravision or a
Scanning Sense) the link is good, for a -4 to skill.

An object which was a former part of the target, such as a fingernail
clipping or a lock of hair for a human, or a chunk of pavement stone for
a city, provides an excellent link. Anything intentionally created by
the target (a work of art, for example) provides a good link. Objects
which have had a long and significant contact with the target are
moderate links for -6 to skill; the target's key ring or an article of
clothing which the target has had and regularly worn for a long time
(over a month, for example. Things unintentionally created by the
target are also moderate, such as a footprint or shadow. Occasional
casual contact with the target gives a poor link for -8 to skill, and a
single brief contact gives a terrible link for -10 to skill. If the
target has a strong emotional attachment to the object, increase the
link strength by one level - an artist's masterwork would be an
excellent link, while a favorite teddy bear would be good.

A symbolic representation of the target also provides a link. A
photograph or good quality artwork (i.e., the artist succeeds his Artist
skill roll) provides a good link. A signature, seal, or symbol which
symbolically stands for the target in legal, societal or cultural
matters is also a good link (this can also include identifying documents
such as a birth certificate). A detailed description of the physical
appearance of the target, along with his habits, history, and name is
typically a moderate link, although exceptionally detailed descriptions
can be better (a full biography would be a good link, although these
usually have photographs or artwork as well). Knowing the target's
name alone gives a poor link. A physical description, gives a terrible
link, for -10 to skill.

Finally, if someone who knows the target is participating in or
assisting with the ritual, that person can provide a link to the
target. An intimate associate (child, lover, best friend) gives a good
link. A person who knows the target well (friends and buddies - or
long-time rivals) gives a moderate link. A casual acquaintance
(co-worker, regular customer, the waitress at a commonly frequented
restaurant) gives a poor link. Lastly, someone who met the target once
gives a terrible link.

Odd items that provide some symbolism of the target can be adjudicated
on a special basis. For example, a wedding ring is a symbol of a
marriage, and would be considered an object with a long and significant
association with the marriage with a strong emotional attachment. Thus,
the ring would provide an good link to a ritual targeting the marriage
itself.

If there are two or more targets (as opposed to a single target
composed of a large number of individuals), the Path skill modifiers for
both (or all) targets stack.

There is more, but I think this message is long enough already.

Luke