Intel Coffee Lake (8th & 9th Gen Core CPUs) + Skylake-X Refresh & W-3175X MegaThread! FAQ and Resources

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Oh interesting, so for Coffee they just max out at 103. That's kinda cool, if we see this on a lot more motherboards, at least there will be some sort of overclocking capability on locked CPUs, even if it's just say 4.2ghz.
 
^ I'd say fairly uncool really.
If Intel are being this heavy handed this early in the game (they never made any attempt to blck overclocks on the asrock blck engine b150 & h170 boards at all) that sets alarm bells ringing to me.
 


Well the 8400 is really cheap I guess it depends on the binning an how well it overclocks. Price to performance ratio needs to be considered. I think it could be very beneficial depending on the CPU, headroom and price of coarse. He also got the memory to run at 4000mhz nice.
 
just to say from what ive seen the coffee lake cpu line is just another skylake cpu but with minor tweaks


its not a great idea to go from 7th gen skylake to 8th gen coffee lake its the same cpu with a new name and some tweaks to make it seem better. if you coming from 3 gen thru 6 gen and want a 8th gen go for the skylake cpu line. with that you will save money and dont have to pay more for the new motherboard

<Edited by moderator>
<Please do not use multiple posts when a single one will do>
 


Higher clocks and 50--100% more cores (depending of the model) is "better". For instance, the CoffeLake 8700k is 13% faster than Skylake 6700k in single thread and 61% faster in multithread

cb15-1.png

cb15-2b.png
 
Is it normal for 8700k to have really high loaded temperature around 80 to 90 degrees with a old Xigmatek Gaia cooler? Currently running 4.7k at 1.24v.
 


Looking at the HeatSink design of it, that might be the case, since the i7-8700K puts a lot of heat in a line, so it depends on how the fins are aligned against the CPU orientation, plus the thermal paste you used. I would suggest checking the orientation of the CPU die against the contact-fins of the HS.

Now, keep in mind a lot of reviews have found the i7-8700K to get very hot using water cooling while OC'ing as well, so it should not be surprising, specially at 4.7Ghz, that it will run hot. I'm not sure if that hot, but still keep it in mind.

If you have more doubts, please create a thread in the forums to keep track of your questions!

Cheers!
 
That xigmatek is a cheap old,mediocre 120mm tower that performs worse than a 212evo.

I can't believe you're asking the question in all honesty.

A 8700k@4.7htz - it's plainly plainly not even close to being good enough.
 
Apology for that @madmatt30, I am looking for a Watercooling AIO solution like Kraken x52. My old casing couldn't fit a 240mm radiator that's explain why I was using the Xigmatek for time being.

What type of temperature should I be aiming for on loaded for 24hrs usage after overclocking? The last thing I want to do is to burn the chip.
 
... and the reason for this is that the efficiency for a specific CPU scale very well with the voltage.
The power management typically changes the voltage when the speed changes, and overclockers typically hike up the voltage further.

You seem to have misunderstood the concept of TDP.
It's Thermal Design Power, the power level a computer manufacturer needs to provide sufficient cooling for. This is not defined as the component's peak power, but what is supposed to be (at least!) the highest average power consumption over some extended period in normal use. (Running a stress test is not normal.)
The TDP is typically the same for the better part of a range of CPUs, even though the lesser of them never will reach that high power consumption.

The motherboard does not limit power consumption to the TDP as such. There's some other power limit applied, that may or may not happen to coincide with the TDP.

Yeas and no. Intel is just sticking to their original time plan for these boards, while the Z370 (which is essentially a Z270 with increased power limits) could be launched (more than?) three months ahead of schedule.
 
And I was right. Coffee lake was compatible with Z270.

http://www.bit-tech.net/features/tech/motherboards/asus-interview-andrew-wu-rog-motherboard-pm/1/

A big middle finger to Intel and its defenders. Thanks to Asus for clearning up the BS. "Power delivery differences" what a joke. This was a deliberate forced upgrade.
 


That was kind of obvious, but I can still see people taking Intel's marketing information as gospel.

They need to milk this generation as much as possible before AMD really catches up to them in process and uArch maturity.

Cheers!
 
bit-tech: Can you go into more technical detail about why the new CPUs are not backwards-compatible with Z270 motherboards?

Andrew: Actually, it depends on Intel’s decision.

bit-tech: So it’s not a physical limitation? Intel said it was to do with power delivery.

Andrew: Not really. It [the power delivery] makes a little bit of difference, but not much.

bit-tech: So what are they referring to – the 20 or so unused pins from before?

Andrew: Yes.

bit-tech: So if you wanted and Intel let you, you could make Z270 compatible?

Andrew: Yes, but you also require an upgrade from the ME [Management Engine] and a BIOS update. Intel somehow has locked the compatibility.

bit-tech: The 20 previously unused pins that you mentioned, what are they now used for?

Andrew: Many of them are used for power control. It's possible that these are in preparation for the high-core count processors.
Click to expand...

He says upgrade which suggest hardware, but ME does have firmware. He does state:
Intel somehow has locked the compatibility.
Click to expand...

Below is what I found on the Intel Management Engine.

Secret of Intel Management Engine by Igor Skochinsky
Igor Skochinsky reverse engineered Intel's management engine. Click through the 50 page slide.

Intel Active Management Technology
Intel has confirmed a Remote Elevation of Privilege bug (CVE-2017-5689) in its Management Technology, on 1 May 2017.[12] Every Intel platform with either Intel Standard Manageability, Active Management Technology, or Small Business Technology, from Nehalem in 2008 to Kaby Lake in 2017 has a remotely exploitable security hole in the IME (Intel Management Engine).[13][14]
Click to expand...

Disabling the Intel Management Engine

Sakaki's EFI Install Guide/Disabling the Intel Management Engine

 
https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2011/12/14/intelr-amt-and-the-intelr-me
BAugt5L.png

The Intel AMT functionality is contained in the ME firmware (Manageability Engine Firmware).


The firmware image is stored in the Flash memory.
The Intel AMT capability is enabled using the Intel® Management Engine (Intel® ME) BIOS extension as implemented by an OEM platform provider. A remote application performs enterprise setup and configuration
On power-up, the firmware image is copied into the Double Data Rate (DDR) random-access memory (RAM).
The firmware executes on the Intel ME processor and uses a small portion of the DDR RAM (Slot 0) for storage during execution. RAM slot 0 must be populated and powered on for the firmware to run.


Intel AMT stores the following information in the Flash (ME Data):


OEM-configurable parameters
Setup and configuration parameters such as passwords, network configuration, certificates, and access control lists (ACLs)
Other configuration information, such as lists of alerts and System Defense policies
The hardware configuration captured by the BIOS at startup
Intel AMT also manages third-party data storage (3PDS).The storage area can be allocated by independent software vendor (ISVs) for local storage of information critical to their applications.
The Flash also contains the BIOS executable code (BIOS), as well as the executable code for the Intel® 82566DM Gigabit Network Connection (GbE Ntwk FW).


The Flash is protected against unauthorized host access by a hardware mechanism activated by the OEM during manufacturing.

The PCH (replaces MCH and ICH from pre Intel AMT 6.0) holds the filter definitions that are applied to incoming and outgoing in-band network traffic (the message traffic to and from the CPU). These include both internally-defined filters and the application filters defined by ISVs using the System Defense and Agent Presence capabilities.

The Intel® 82566 Gigabit Network Connection identifies out-of-band (OOB) network traffic (traffic targeted to Intel AMT) and routes it to the Intel ME instead of to the CPU. Intel AMT traffic is identified by dedicated IANA-registered port numbers.

The following elements interact with Intel AMT:


The BIOS can be used to initialize Intel AMT or to reset it to its initial state. It captures platform hardware configuration information and stores it in NVM so that Intel AMT can make the information available out of band.
The PCH sensor capability detects the state of various platform sensors, such as temperatures, fan status, and chassis integrity. Intel AMT can be configured to store and/or forward an alert when the state of any selected sensor changes or crosses a threshold.
Software Agents (typically written by management ISVs) executing on the CPU can register with Intel AMT and report their presence to Intel AMT and to a management console using “heartbeats”. Intel AMT monitors the heartbeats and can take action when there is a problem with Agent execution.
ISV Applications on the CPU can communicate locally with Intel AMT using dedicated drivers that are compatible with the host operating system.
Click to expand...
 


(i)
Z370 is not a rebrand of Z270. The specs are different

(ii)
The Asus manager claims that they could support Coffe Lake chips on the Z270 boards. As Intel mentioned the change in chipset was motivated by higher power requirements for extra cores / clocks. Overclocking is pushing systems beyond the standard limits/specs. It is possible that best Z270 mobos for overclocking could manage the power needed by new chips. Also support is not the same than optimal support. older mobos would lack new power/clocks management policies.

it is still likely that the potential for high clockspeeds and further overclocking headroom may have been limiting for Coffee Lake on Z270 boards and below - in which case, most customers would likely opt for a Z370 board and its enhanced power delivery, regardless.
Click to expand...

Finally, that some high-end mobos could support the new chips doesn't imply that all mobos could. Users would confront to a situation where some Z270 mobos could support new chips and others not, or worse still the former class could give the appearance of support only to get the chip and/or board damaged latter by continued usage. This would be nightmare not only for users. So:

At one point in time, Coffee Lake processors may have been supported across some Z270 boards, but not all, with Intel deciding that the easier - and likely more profitable - option of limited board support to the latest chipset was the best course of action.
Click to expand...

(iii)
The Asus manager also hints to the Z370 chipset having some unused power features that could be reserved for more powerful chips. A future 8-core version is in the rumors. Again the Asus representative forget the obvious. Either Intel introduces the new chipset now or introduces one year latter.

REFERENCES:

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Z370-vs-Z270-What-is-the-Difference-1009/

https://pcgamesn.com/intel-coffee-lake-8-core

http://www.pcgamer.com/coffee-lakes-motherboard-compatibility-hints-at-intel-releasing-8-core-cpus/

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-coffee-lake-z270-z370-motherboard,35554.html
 
That's why we have to inform ourselves first, . Like the reviews from Tom's Hardware and numerous others sites have pointed out,

The Coffee Lake i7-8700K weighs in with a TDP of 95W compared to Kaby Lake i7-7700K's 91W rating. A small increase, sure, but we could see larger deltas during overclocking. Intel says it improved the package power delivery to offset the increased overclocking power requirements for the six-core models..

The Coffee Lake processors also support per-core overclocking, a feature that wasn't included in the Kaby Lake era

Intel noted that the Z370 motherboards have improved memory routing to support DDR4-2666, a slight increase over Kaby Lake's DDR4-2400. Existing Kaby Lake motherboards easily support memory overclocking well beyond DDR4-2666, as any overclocker can attest, but Intel also says it has baked other improvements into Coffee Lake processors. Intel expanded the memory multipliers to support up to 8400 MT/s and added a real-time memory latency control feature.
 


Your first reference states:
Conclusion
Overall, most of the changes to the Z370 chipset is relatively minor. Obviously the support for the new Coffee Lake-S CPUs is a very big deal, but the odd thing is that for whatever reason Intel decided not to change the physical socket from LGA-1151. This means that you can install a Coffee Lake-S CPU into a Z270 motherboard without the need of a hammer and everything will appear to be correct - only the system will never actually be able to POST or operate correctly.

Besides support for Coffee Lake-S CPUs, the only major changes made are the native support for USB 3.1 and support for PCIe RAID. This may be disappointing for those that were hoping for some cool new technology, but the USB 3.1 support especially is really quite nice to see - especially if Type-C connectors really take off. Even reversible USB connector likely isn't going to be enough by itself to make anyone upgrade from Z270, but honestly the CPUs are what typically drive upgrades, not the motherboard or chipset.
Click to expand...
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Z370-vs-Z270-What-is-the-Difference-1009/

Your second reference states:
Asus believe they could have added support for Intel’s Coffee Lake hexacore chips on last generation Z270 boards. This goes against Intel’s touted power delivery limitations, but Asus did add that the changed chipset could be “in preparation for high-core count processors.”
For Intel Coffee Lake users, there is only one chipset available to complete a six-core blue team build - Z370. You can thank some Intel low-level software shenanigans for that, which makes older Z170 and Z270 boards incompatible with the latest chips, despite their common LGA 1151 socket.

Intel cited increased power demand of Coffee Lake chips as their reasoning behind locking the boards, with older motherboards unable to offer the levels of power delivery necessary for top performance from the two extra cores.

Product manager for Asus ROG motherboards, Andrew Wu, in an interview with Bit-tech, confirmed that the Z370’s power delivery makes little difference in the functioning of Coffee Lake chips - at least, it doesn’t for Asus boards. Wu confirms that Asus could have made last-generation motherboards compatible with Coffee Lake processors, and that they weren’t able to due to the fact that “Intel somehow has locked the compatibility” within their ME (Management engine).
Click to expand...
https://pcgamesn.com/intel-coffee-lake-8-core

Your third reference states:
Andrew Wu, product manager for Republic of Gamers (ROG) motherboards at Asus, spoke with Bit-Tech about the new CPUs and what is going on with backwards compatibility. When asked to shed some light on the technical details preventing Coffee Lake processors from working in Z270 motherboards, Wu responded that it was "Intel's decision," suggesting that compatibility could exist if Intel allowed it.

Bit-Tech prodded further, asking Wu if it was a physical limitation, as Intel claims the restriction has to do with power delivery.

"Not really. It [the power delivery] makes a little bit of difference, but not much," Wu said. He added that it would be possible to support the current crop of Coffee Lake processors in a Z270 motherboard with "an upgrade form the ME [Management Engine] and a BIOS update," except that "Intel somehow has locked the compatibility."
Click to expand...
http://www.pcgamer.com/coffee-lakes-motherboard-compatibility-hints-at-intel-releasing-8-core-cpus/

Your fourth reference states:
Intel noted that the Z370 motherboards have improved memory routing to support DDR4-2666, a slight increase over Kaby Lake's DDR4-2400. Existing Kaby Lake motherboards easily support memory overclocking well beyond DDR4-2666, as any overclocker can attest, but Intel also says it has baked other improvements into Coffee Lake processors. Intel expanded the memory multipliers to support up to 8400 MT/s and added a real-time memory latency control feature.
Whether the existing Z270 motherboards, many of which offer beefy power delivery, could potentially satisfy the needs of the Coffee Lake processors will be a hot-button debate for some time to come. We've requested additional details from Intel regarding the socket and pin-out, but we await further details.
The 300-series chipset doesn't offer any new features; even the TDP remains the same, which suggests the 300-series chipset is merely a Z270 refresh. Outside of new LED functionality or other third-party additions, there would be little reason to upgrade a Kaby Lake system to a newer motherboard, but the option would be nice. However, Kaby Lake processors will also not work on 300-series motherboards. Intel indicated the decision to eliminate Kaby Lake compatibility was due, at least in part, to requests from motherboard vendors that the company make a "clean split." For motherboard vendors, this removes the burden of adding support for Kaby Lake (and the requisite validation) during a time when most motherboard vendors are already stretched to their engineering resource limits due to rapid fire Intel and AMD launches.
Click to expand...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-coffee-lake-z270-z370-motherboard,35554.htm

This quote is especially enlightening:
Intel indicated the decision to eliminate Kaby Lake compatibility was due, at least in part, to requests from motherboard vendors that the company make a "clean split." For motherboard vendors, this removes the burden of adding support for Kaby Lake (and the requisite validation) during a time when most motherboard vendors are already stretched to their engineering resource limits due to rapid fire Intel and AMD launches.
Click to expand...

All of the references you cite suggest that Z270 board offer "minor changes" and could be compatible with Coffee Lake despite speculation on future support for 8 core processors.
 
Meh, not worth discussing this anymore, really.

At the end of the day, Intel is keeping the most important technical information close to their chest, so no matter how much we find on the outside, there's no technical data sheets that will indicate the hardware was compatible or not. They won't make that available either to the world and the closest we have are OEMs information on what they discussed with Intel.

Cheers!
 
If a Coffee Lake can be made to run in a Z270 motherboard, why can't it be made to run in a Z170 motherboard? After all, the Z170 motherboard uses the Socket 1151, too, right? Why not the B,H, and Q 100 and 200 boards? Should it run in those, too? After all, they have Socket 1151, too.
 


Agreed if it supports z270 it should support the whole gamut of skylake based chipsets.
 
At least for me is really easy to understand that more cores means more power consumption, and Intel may never have planned for the Z270 to support the power requirements for Coffee Lake. Intel has a long history of releasing chipsets far more often than AMD, and its users have an equally long history of complaining about it, then buying Intel anyway. It’s a song and dance the company is entirely used to, and we likely have Ryzen to thank for Intel’s early release of 6 cores desktop CPUs. It’s certainly no coincidence that Pentiums got Hyper-Threading, Intel launched its entire X-Series, and Coffee Lake leaks predict and lunches six-core mainstream desktops in the same year that AMD launched its first competitive CPU in six years. Yes I do agree that Intel had all this planned but we got it a lot quicker thanks to Ryzen. Instead of complaining I'm just happy because we have competition, and I do expect things to get a little crazier if they keep competing and stay this close..
 
Intel has limited compatibility through ME, and Intel and motherboard makers wanted new motherboards released for 8th Gen processors.
Tom's Points out:
Whether the existing Z270 motherboards, many of which offer beefy power delivery, could potentially satisfy the needs of the Coffee Lake processors will be a hot-button debate for some time to come. We've requested additional details from Intel regarding the socket and pin-out, but we await further details.
The 300-series chipset doesn't offer any new features; even the TDP remains the same, which suggests the 300-series chipset is merely a Z270 refresh. Outside of new LED functionality or other third-party additions, there would be little reason to upgrade a Kaby Lake system to a newer motherboard, but the option would be nice. However, Kaby Lake processors will also not work on 300-series motherboards. Intel indicated the decision to eliminate Kaby Lake compatibility was due, at least in part, to requests from motherboard vendors that the company make a "clean split." For motherboard vendors, this removes the burden of adding support for Kaby Lake (and the requisite validation) during a time when most motherboard vendors are already stretched to their engineering resource limits due to rapid fire Intel and AMD launches.
Click to expand...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-coffee-lake-z270-z370-motherboard,35554.html

They wanted high quality motherboards with more phase power delivery(10-12 phase) to show off their new CPU's with to try to eliminate any problems with performance for the launch, and motherboard companies want to sell more motherboards. Lower quality motherboards having 6-9 phase power delivery would limit overclock ability of the processors, and maybe even their ability to function normally with all core boost enabled by default on many motherboards in the form of MCE(Multi-core Enhancements). This comment suggests they could have included Kaby Lake, and you could assume backward compatibility.
 
The more core mainstream chips were planned for 10nm. When Intel had problems with the 14nm process, they pulled engineers off of 10nm to fix it. It took longer than expected, even with the extra engineers. The basics of higher core count mainstream chips was on schedule and technically easier than getting back on schedule for the launch window for 10nm. Hence, Coffee Lake, a mostly unplanned generation that Intel threw into the mix because it was the easiest to execute.
 
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