[SOLVED] It's worse than I thought. My 1st Build's CPU is running HOT! Like, 100c hot.

[PurpleChange]

SO much regret. As deep as I am in now I could have bought a prebuilt with better specs. Oh well, I'm learning a lot.

I got the basics together; it posted, unlicensed (let's not go there) WIN10Home loaded, BIOS updated, Main drivers installed.
Here's my build: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/hL79vW

I installed GeForce Experience, NVIDIA Control Panel, Steam and Origin and started Playing SWBF2. After a while I noticed the exhaust was pretty hot so I installed Open Hardware Monitor and Holy Heart Attack! CPU Package 103.5c and CPU CCD #1 102.3c! (I have no idea what those really even mean) I'm assuming that's too hot.

I've OC'd nothing except my RAM to it's specs. This morning I played around with the fan settings in the BIOS and really boosted them. It's helped a little but not much. Another quick session of SWBF2 ran it in the 90's, it spiked over 100 a few times. Just windows, chrome and OHM running right now, CPU total load under 3% and it's running at 70c.

Obviously I need more fans at least. I thought that only the 2 included case fans may run a little warm but with no OCing and it being a fairly mild system, as I understand it, it didn't expect it to run that hot.

I don't think this is an airflow issue. It also seems I've done something wrong or not done something right.

I read some articles and forum posts about voltages and the Ryzen 3600 but I didn't understand them. You'll really have to talk to me like I'm stupid. I'm in over my head. The Youtube videos make it look easy.

Any ideas on where to start, or what I can tell you to help you help me?

I'd really appreciate it. It would be a real bummer if I blew this build.

 

[PurpleChange]

It might improve performance a little bit since it runs cooler with the lowered voltage. But also, since the processors algorithm is confused it sometimes actually uses a lower clock than it should and kills performance.

The videos I watched last night said pretty much exactly that.

 

[PurpleChange]

OK, Platform Thermal Throttle Limit set to 85c. Under stress I did notice a slight drop in CPU performance, I don't care. After stress it went back to 50-52c pretty quickly.

I'm satisfied with that until fans and cooler come in. This should keep me well protected. Maybe additional tweaks will be appropriate then.

Of course any additional thoughts are welcome... even if it's to make fun of me. LOL

Thanks. 4Real.

 

[drea.drechsler]

OK, Platform Thermal Throttle Limit set to 85c. Under stress I did notice a slight drop in CPU performance, I don't care. After stress it went back to 50-52c pretty quickly.
...

No making fun of anybody, we're all learning here

I would not imagine that the minor loss of performance will matter in daily use at all since you're only losing it at an extreme limit of processing that needs specialized software (or an apparently strangely coded game) to exploit and does nothing useful otherwise. The good thing about setting a platform thermal limit is it only affects performance of the CPU when it's getting hot and at the extreme limit of all-core performance which most people will never see, or need, in 'real-world' use. So you're odds-on not going to be limited by any loss of performance in daily use.

Also, even if you didn't set the platform limit the processor is 'safe' for the occasional excursion up to 95C, that's why AMD specified it as they did. But if you ARE one of those who'll do some extreme processing, e.g., 4 hour renderings in Handbrake or Blender, you'll appreciate the thermal limit until you get your fans and cooler.

 

[PurpleChange]

I'm back. AMD finally responded to my ticket. Their response:
"Please remove CMOS battery and reset the BIOS.
Please update the BIOS to the latest build.
Thanks for contacting AMD."

Stupid questions: I bought an MSI B450 Gaming Plus MAX because it was guaranteed to be updated for AMD 3000 series.
It's my understanding that this will essentially return it to a B450 Gaming Plus. And I'll need a 1000 or 2000 series CPU to update to the new BIOS.

Am I wrong?

My BIOS is up to the latest build.

Does anyone understand why he would ask me to do this? Is he asking me to brick my mobo? Can I do what he's asking without a early gen CPU?

I should be getting my cooler in a few hours, finally. So, I'll have my hands in the PC.

 

[drea.drechsler]

I'm back. AMD finally responded to my ticket. Their response:
"Please remove CMOS battery and reset the BIOS.
Please update the BIOS to the latest build.
Thanks for contacting AMD."

Stupid questions: I bought an MSI B450 Gaming Plus MAX because it was guaranteed to be updated for AMD 3000 series.
It's my understanding that this will essentially return it to a B450 Gaming Plus. And I'll need a 1000 or 2000 series CPU to update to the new BIOS.

Am I wrong?

My BIOS is up to the latest build.

Does anyone understand why he would ask me to do this? Is he asking me to brick my mobo? Can I do what he's asking without a early gen CPU?

I should be getting my cooler in a few hours, finally. So, I'll have my hands in the PC.

You are wrong. Resetting CMOS only removes custom settings you may have made, returning them all to default. It does nothing to change the board's BIOS revision, and certainly nothing to change a board's hardware revisions either.

The Gaming Plus Max's sole difference from the non-Max is it's larger capacity BIOS chip, an integrated circuit mounted on the motherboard.

 

[PurpleChange]

You are wrong. Resetting CMOS only removes custom settings you may have made, returning them all to default. It does nothing to change the board's BIOS revision, and certainly nothing to change a board's hardware revisions either.

The Gaming Plus Max's sole difference from the non-Max is it's larger capacity BIOS chip, an integrated circuit mounted on the motherboard.

What would I do without you?

OK, so basically he's just asking me to undo all we have done.

Then what, I wonder? Shoot him another screenshot of 95c, turn off my PC and wait until next week when AMD finally responds?

One week lag time. I may as well be in another star system.

Thanks drea.drechsler, I guess I have no choice but to do what he says and wait.

 

[drea.drechsler]

What would I do without you?

OK, so basically he's just asking me to undo all we have done.

Then what, I wonder? Shoot him another screenshot of 95c, turn off my PC and wait until next week when AMD finally responds?

One week lag time. I may as well be in another star system.

Thanks drea.drechsler, I guess I have no choice but to do what he says and wait.

Without knowing how you are setup right now his response is the safest since it's one made with incomplete knowledge. I think you're OK as you are, wait for the new cooler and fans before taking any further action.

 

[drea.drechsler]

What would I do without you?

OK, so basically he's just asking me to undo all we have done.

Then what, I wonder? Shoot him another screenshot of 95c, turn off my PC and wait until next week when AMD finally responds?

One week lag time. I may as well be in another star system.

Thanks drea.drechsler, I guess I have no choice but to do what he says and wait.

And then...thinking about it...

I think you had this high temp situation even before you'd made any changes to BIOS, IIRC. That is, with everything in full-on stock settings. If so, you might respond that you did and even cleaned, replaced thermal material and remounted the stock cooler and it still would get hot. Then tell him you've set a thermal platform limit of 85C out of caution and are currently awaiting an upgraded cooler and case fans to see if that helps without needing to artificially hold down temperature like that. Finally, I'd let him know you don't consider the case closed but want to wait until then to see how it works.

 

[PurpleChange]

And then...thinking about it...

I think you had this high temp situation even before you'd made any changes to BIOS, IIRC. If so, you might respond that you did and even cleaned, replaced thermal material and remounted the stock cooler and it still would get hot. Then tell him you've set a thermal platform limit of 85C out of caution and are currently awaiting an upgraded cooler and case fans to see if that helps without needing to artificially hold down temperature like that. Finally, I'd let him know you don't consider the case closed but want to wait until then to see how it works.

I sent him a Dxdiag report and a very detailed (step by step) report of the problem and what I had done to try to control it.

That's why I'm a little baffled by his response.

 

[Karadjgne]

(IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ALREADY )
Take a flat screw driver or a knife (JUST DON'T CUT URSELF ) and gently put it between the cooler and the CPU and gently but not too gently, force it inside, so it get's off the glued tooth paste u put there,

Absolutely not! Use Dental Floss.

The issue with Amd, reaching back countless years, is that there's no 'top' lip over the cpu like there is with Intel mounts. AMD uses a compression socket, when you pull the bar down, the interior of the socket grabs the pins, trapping them and holding the cpu. Apply enough upwards or rotational pressure, and the pins warp as they are pulled out of the socket clamp.

The answer is to warm up the cpu by going to bios for a minute, shut down and then use Dental Floss to cut the paste like a cheese string/garotte. This can be done on even the largest aircoolers. If you used something like AS5 and it had dried out solid, a few light taps on a solid/non-finned section of the cooler will break the seal.

 

[PurpleChange]

Unless he just wants to start his Dx from scratch. That's the only rational reason I can think of for asking me to go back to the beginning.

I consider the machine to be inoperable in it's original BIOS settings. He will know that.

 

[Karadjgne]

Haha. Ya'll know the expression that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You've shown a caveman how to light a fire, and wonder why he's suddenly running amuk seeing what else will burn...

Sorry, but you'll just have to see this through to the end, when that caveman is all out of flammables.

 

[PurpleChange]

Absolutely not! Use Dental Floss.

The issue with Amd, reaching back countless years, is that there's no 'top' lip over the cpu like there is with Intel mounts. AMD uses a compression socket, when you pull the bar down, the interior of the socket grabs the pins, trapping them and holding the cpu. Apply enough upwards or rotational pressure, and the pins warp as they are pulled out of the socket clamp.

The answer is to warm up the cpu by going to bios for a minute, shut down and then use Dental Floss to cut the paste like a cheese string/garotte. This can be done on even the largest aircoolers. If you used something like AS5 and it had dried out solid, a few light taps on a solid/non-finned section of the cooler will break the seal.

I used a strip of soft styrene plastic to gently pry the CPU off the heatsink. I would never have applied a screw driver or knife.

I have to pull the cooler again today to replace it. I'm terrified.

I will definitely run the PC, hard in fact, and strip her down as fast as I can. I DO NOT want that happening again.

I've heard some say to give it a twist. Hmmm. I'm terrified of bending a pin. Hopefully it will be hot enough to properly disengage this time or I may have a stroke.

***

I was told I wouldn't need additional protection plans and that I was wasting my money. I bought them anyway for my major components. I'm now feeling that was an extra $70 well spent. I just got off the phone with my protection plan. They actually let you talk to someone, imagine that. If the cooling solutions I install today don't perform a miracle, it looks like I will get farther, faster with them. Good to know.

 

[PurpleChange]

It's here. wish me luck.

 

[Karadjgne]

9/10 you don't need additional protection plans, because 9/10 have no issues. Unfortunately you seem to have fully landed with both feet square in the 1/10 catagory, so Yes, it absolutely pays to have spent out for the extra protection.

You talked to a person? You should spread the word like it was Gospel, that Never happens except with people like Corsair or Evga. Back on the day, I used to frequently call Asus and always got a person, now I get the machine, gotta fight my way through to get a real voice.

Twisting the cpu cooler can be as detrimental as just pulling, it all depends on your sense of touch. Some ppl are just plain ham-fisted and others are surgeons, so what works for some won't work for others. But that plastic seemed to work for you.

MX-4, good choice. That Arctic is really nice too, and I'm not a fan of Arctic usually 👍

 

[PurpleChange]

OH! MY! GOD! I'm stunned.

BIOS settings default. It took 4 minutes under stress to reach 73c.

95c to 73c.

Shame on AMD for packaging this CPU with that Cooler. Anyone want to buy a slightly used Wraith?

Case (Saga) Solved. I'm elated.

 

[PurpleChange]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, drea.drechsler and Karadjgne.

Thank you for keeping my CPU form burning up while we worked through this. Thank you holding my hand. Thank you for being SOOOO patient.

I can't say it enough. You guys are awesome.

 

[drea.drechsler]

....
Shame on AMD for packaging this CPU with that Cooler. Anyone want to buy a slightly used Wraith?
....

It would not have burned up even with the stock cooler. But yah, it's just something to keep it running until the upgraded cooler gets in.

I'd suggest going back to those settings we had before. As you can see, using an 85C thermal limit won't impede performance at all since it won't ever get that high now. And you should be getting better performance now that temp's are well controlled and not getting out of mid 70's.

And lastly, that cooler's not really as bad as it seems. I mean, look at what Intel bundles with their 6 core/12 thread CPU's at a way higher price and you'll appreciate it more.

 

[PurpleChange]

It would not have burned up even with the stock cooler. But yah, it's just something to keep it running until the upgraded cooler gets in.

I'd suggest going back to those settings we had before. As you can see, using an 85C thermal limit won't impede performance at all since it won't ever get that high now. And you should be getting better performance now that temp's are well controlled and not getting out of mid 70's.

And lastly, that cooler's not really as bad as it seems. I mean, look at what Intel bundles with their 6 core/12 thread CPU's at a way higher price and you'll appreciate it more.

I probably will do that. Insurance is always a good thing.

You're attitude surpasses mine. I can't justify the pairing. However, I have been so frustrated by others saying they are getting good temps with the stock cooler. All I know is that was absolutely not my experience. Max temps to 73c is staggering, low 80s was the best I was expecting.

Even just a note somewhere, "This cooler may not be adequate for your applications." would go a long way. Now I'll always view AMD with a skeptical eye. And that's on them.

It's hard to appreciate something that you're throwing in the trash.

All is well that ends well. Good enough. AMD has the rest of this processor's life to steer me around. I'm open to that.

Them just informing me that I can't upgrade to Zen3 with my brand new B450 mobo is a bad, bad start.

 

[drea.drechsler]

I probably will do that. Insurance is always a good thing.

You're attitude surpasses mine. I can't justify the pairing. However, I have been so frustrated by others saying they are getting good temps with the stock cooler. All I know is that was absolutely not my experience. Max temps to 73c is staggering, low 80s was the best I was expecting.

Even just a note somewhere, "This cooler may not be adequate for your applications." would go a long way. Now I'll always view AMD with a skeptical eye. And that's on them.

It's hard to appreciate something that you're throwing in the trash.

Air cooling is a very flaky thing. The same CPU and cooler in one case can look quite comfortable temperature-wise, but install it in another person's case with a different GPU, fan arrangement and ambient temperature and it goes to pool in a pee pocket really fast. Hard to know exactly how it happens but I'm certain there's a cascading effect in there somewhere.

Also consider this: with air cooling CPU temp is just a temp-rise above ambient so a difference of 10 deg. ambient makes all the difference and the internet is world-wide. One person in Germany in mid-winter with a room temp around 55F might say 'OMG...this cooler is GREAT and all I need" while another chap in NSW Australia in mid-summer with room temp around 80F and he's constantly throttling with the exact same setup.

If you want to learn a bit how troublesome this is go check out the Gamers Nexus web site and YouTube tech channel. Steve has gone into great lengths trying to explain just how much of a PITA it is trying to get repeateable and stable temperature measurements to build a database of cooler performance for review comparisons. As you can tell, it's just not feasible to re-test ALL the coolers every time you want to review another one in order to get valid comparisons. And then catch him in his case reviews...he's brutal. Almost all cases, quite simply, suck for airflow. Bad airflow means air coolers are just sucking on their own hot air and doing no good...so talk about a cascade effect.

That's why I really prefer a liquid cooler...first reason is it has massive thermal capacity before saturation, but then put the radiator in a front mount with fans drawing cool outside air across it and you almost can't go wrong for CPU cooling. Very forgiving of bad case ventilation so long as they don't block the front fan intake.

 

[PurpleChange]

Air cooling is a very flaky thing. The same CPU and cooler in one case can look quite comfortable temperature-wise, but install it in another person's case with a different GPU, fan arrangement and ambient temperature and it goes to pool in a pee pocket really fast. Hard to know exactly how it happens but I'm certain there's a cascading effect in there somewhere.

Also consider this: with air cooling CPU temp is just a temp-rise above ambient so a difference of 10 deg. ambient makes all the difference and the internet is world-wide. One person in Germany in mid-winter with a room temp around 55F might say 'OMG...this cooler is GREAT and all I need" while another chap in NSW Australia in mid-summer with room temp around 80F and he's constantly throttling with the exact same setup.

If you want to learn a bit how troublesome this is go check out the Gamers Nexus web site and YouTube tech channel. Steve has gone into great lengths trying to explain just how much of a PITA it is trying to get repeateable and stable temperature measurements to build a database of cooler performance for review comparisons. As you can tell, it's just not feasible to re-test ALL the coolers every time you want to review another one in order to get valid comparisons. And then catch him in his case reviews...he's brutal. Almost all cases, quite simply, suck for airflow. Bad airflow means air coolers are just sucking on their own hot air and doing no good...so talk about a cascade effect.

That's why I really prefer a liquid cooler...first reason is it has massive thermal capacity before saturation, but then put the radiator in a front mount with fans drawing cool outside air across it and you almost can't go wrong for CPU cooling. Very forgiving of bad case ventilation so long as they don't block the front fan intake.

Maybe my next build and hopefully a long time from now I can look at liquid. Knowing what I know now, I'll probably always overshoot cooling in the future. I've learned my lesson.

The Fractal Design G isn't going to win awards for case flow. In fact, I'm kind of in a conundrum now about fan placement. I have an extra and can't decide where to put it in or if I even should. I was going to put it in the bottom like this:

But my PSU is too big, it won't fit.

So I have it like this:

I took the screen out of the top back vent (blowing out) and doubled the screens on the top front vent to hopefully create a little resistance to air flow. I thought of just covering the vent up with plastic leaving only the rearmost top vent open. This current layout provides very slight positive pressure. It's almost balanced.

I could put the extra in the top but it seems to create more problems that it solves.

If I put both blowing out it creates a LOT of negative pressure. It huffs incense from every crack - a vacuum cleaner.

If I put it blowing in, it seems that it would just cycle air around right there. It's not really moving anything.

Or I could do that and have LOTS and LOTS of positive pressure.



The way I have it now (top pic) seems to be my best placement just leaving the 5th fan out. I can add it in with significant negative or positive pressure or I can just cycle air around the top (which seems counterproductive).

I think I'm going to cover the top front vent completely so that I get this:

It seems a waste to not use the last fan but I think it's providing the best airflow as is.

Yeah? What do you guys think?

 

[drea.drechsler]

Maybe my next build and hopefully a long time from now I can look at liquid. Knowing what I know now, I'll probably always overshoot cooling in the future. I've learned my lesson.

The Fractal Design G isn't going to win awards for case flow. In fact, I'm kind of in a conundrum now about fan placement. I have an extra and can't decide where to put it in or if I even should. I was going to put it in the bottom like this:

But my PSU is too big, it won't fit.

So I have it like this:

I took the screen out of the top back vent (blowing out) and doubled the screens on the top front vent to hopefully create a little resistance to air flow. I thought of just covering the vent up with plastic leaving only the rearmost top vent open. This current layout provides very slight positive pressure. It's almost balanced.

I could put the extra in the top but it seems to create more problems that it solves.

If I put both blowing out it creates a LOT of negative pressure. It huffs incense from every crack - a vacuum cleaner.

If I put it blowing in, it seems that it would just cycle air around right there. It's not really moving anything.

Or I could do that and have LOTS and LOTS of positive pressure.



The way I have it now (top pic) seems to be my best placement just leaving the 5th fan out. I can add it in with significant negative or positive pressure or I can just cycle air around the top (which seems counterproductive).

I think I'm going to cover the top front vent completely so that I get this:

It seems a waste to not use the last fan but I think it's providing the best airflow as is.

Yeah? What do you guys think?

Personally...I'd put it in top as exhaust to scavenge the hot air out of the CPU/VRM area. With three fans up there you should be able to keep them at a low speed, so quiet, and still move a bunch of air. Creating a strong low pressure zone up there will draw even more cool air than the two fans up front will push in all alone while not needing to run them at a high (noisy) RPM.

In any case top and rear are only for exhaust, never for intake, so just put those options with one or more as intake out of your mind.

A fan in bottom pushing up into an axial GPU would provide it some cool air while gaming though. So it kind of depends...if the GPU's doing OK without it in bottom then in the top situated for exhaust. Just be sure to orient the PSU so it's drawing it's air from the bottom and not creating a low pressure zone just underneath the GPU that will starve it of cool air.