Microsoft Sides With Apple on HTML5 Video Future

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I just realized that I bashed Apple for tossing it but approve of MS... man, I feel stupid. But flash still won't be eliminated, as other browsers will continue support I think. There's still the capability on windows machines to use flash, but the ipad doesn't have any capability at all.
 
[citation][nom]NeeKo[/nom]It wont go anywhere if GOOGLE does not join.[/citation]
AFAIK, Google pushed a lot for video in HTML5 and they also experiment with HTML5 video on YouTube...
 
[citation][nom]Drakefyre[/nom]I just realized that I bashed Apple for tossing it but approve of MS... man, I feel stupid. But flash still won't be eliminated, as other browsers will continue support I think. There's still the capability on windows machines to use flash, but the ipad doesn't have any capability at all.[/citation]
I'm glad someone realizes the hypocrisy.

Seriously, just look at previous Apple vs Adobe article comments. The attitude there is far more biased toward anti-apple that people are willing to support a dying cause.
 
[citation][nom]Reklatsa[/nom]Apple are not blocking Ogg Theora, per se, the HTML 5 Tag allows calls to video. I can view Ogg videos in Safari here http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/gb There are currently issues with Ogg, some to do with licensing, some with quality. It's not yet achieved prime-time but it is getting there. It's early days. Shed your prejudices.[/citation]
No they aren't blocking it but having major companies like Apple and MS supporting one codec makes it harder for others to start up, and the reason both of them are supporting h.264 is because both hold patents used in the codec. Of course they will support the codec they hold part of it and want to make sure it takes over, whether it is better or not. I'm not prejudice at all, just stating why both are backing up h.264, it could be the worst codec for HTML5 but they will still back it up cause they basically own part of it.
 
[citation][nom]Camikazi[/nom]Well I could be wrong but it could be because both Apple and Microsoft hold patents that H.264 uses and they would stand to make money if they start enforcing licenses and demanding royalties from it maybe?[/citation]
Yes. Both Apple and Microsoft are holding patents on H.264.
http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/Licensors.aspx
But I think this is secondary objective. The primary objective always had been and always would be to maintain their platform dominance. By pushing H.264 as a standard and not allowing free licence to opensource vendors both MS and Apple are ensuring that Mozilla and Linux never going to 'legally' match their features.
 
[citation][nom]Camikazi[/nom]No they aren't blocking it but having major companies like Apple and MS supporting one codec makes it harder for others to start up, and the reason both of them are supporting h.264 is because both hold patents used in the codec. Of course they will support the codec they hold part of it and want to make sure it takes over, whether it is better or not. I'm not prejudice at all, just stating why both are backing up h.264, it could be the worst codec for HTML5 but they will still back it up cause they basically own part of it.[/citation]
Come now, if you worked on something wouldn't you back/support your own work? This stance does not preclude the adoption of other future codecs. Apple and MS are not the only tech companies to have worked on the H.264 codec. Nor are they the final arbiters for what does or doesn't get adopted as a standard. I certainly hope there will be continuing choice and innovation.

As I said earlier, developing a video codec is extremely expensive and open-source projects are not the best funded. Consequently, I feel it is better to have an open standard for video than a closed, buggy proprietary plug-in.
 
[citation][nom]Reklatsa[/nom]Apple are not blocking Ogg Theora, per se, the HTML 5 Tag allows calls to video. I can view Ogg videos in Safari here http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/gb There are currently issues with Ogg, some to do with licensing, some with quality. It's not yet achieved prime-time but it is getting there. It's early days. Shed your prejudices.[/citation]
Are you sure? Last time I check Safari did not support OGG Theora. Can you provide link where Apple announces the introduction of OGG support? I just went to Apple site and there is nothing on the subject.
Yes, I recognize the difference between technically not supporting a codec and actively blocking it, but I was not talking about this. I am talking both MS and Apple are using their W3C membership to block inclusion of OGG Theora as HTML5 standard. That is why the HTML5 standard was delayed so long. The main objections from both MS and Apple are that some unknown (imaginary) 3rd party could have submarine patent against OGG Theora. But conveniently they dismiss the same threat when they are talking about H.246. Also they always fail to disclose that they (MS and Apple) are holding patents covering H.264. So what we are talking is the usual FUD.
Yes. Ogg Theora currently has some limitations and needs work. But the only one who is working on the problems is Google.
http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/04/interesting-times-for-video-on-web.html

Let me illustrate the problem with nice quote from Arstechnica.com:
Apple objects to Ogg Theora, claiming that the lack of known patents on Theora doesn't rule out the threat of submarine patents that could eventually be used against adopters. Apple is also concerned about the lack of widespread support for hardware-based Theora decoding, a factor that diminishes the format's viability on mobile devices. Google shares Apple's skepticism about the potential of Theora in the marketplace. The search giant claims that Theora's lack of quality relative to H.264 will make it an impractical choice for large-scale streaming video services such as YouTube.

Obtaining a license for H.264 from MPEG LA doesn't guarantee complete immunity from patent infringement liability, though. Although it is generally assumed that MPEG LA controls all of the relevant intellectual property pertaining to H.264 implementations, there is still the possibility that a third-party which is not a member of the consortium has a broad patent covering related compression technology that it can independently enforce against MPEG LA licensees.
Click to expand...
[1]

and now from MPEG-LA site:
Any party that believes it has patents which are essential to the AVC/H.264 Standard, and wishes to participate in the AVC/H.264 Patent Portfolio License upon successful evaluation, is invited to submit them for evaluation and inclusion
Click to expand...
[2]

So who is really prejudice here and who is also hypocritical? Both Apple and MS.

[1] http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/decoding-the-html-5-video-codec-debate.ars
[2] http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/Licensors.aspx
 
[citation][nom]SAL-e[/nom]Are you sure? Last time I check Safari did not support OGG Theora.[/citation] Here: http://xiph.org/quicktime/
Though Safari 4 already has the plugin installed: Listed in plugins as: video/ogg - Ogg Video - ogv
I can use Safari to surf a number of sites that playback Ogg Theora using the HTML5 video tag.
I switched off Flash with "ClickToFlash" months and months ago, opted in to HTML 5 and miss 1000's of ads I'd prefer not have seen in the first place.
 
[citation][nom]Reklatsa[/nom]Here: http://xiph.org/quicktime/Though Safari 4 already has the plugin installed: Listed in plugins as: video/ogg - Ogg Video - ogvI can use Safari to surf a number of sites that playback Ogg Theora using the HTML5 video tag.I switched off Flash with "ClickToFlash" months and months ago, opted in to HTML 5 and miss 1000's of ads I'd prefer not have seen in the first place.[/citation]
Thank you.
This is good news really. I hope that Apple now helps Google to improve the Ogg Theora and get hardware vendors on board. Just like Google and Apple are working on improving the WebKit together. Because this is still a plugin not a native Safari support like Mozilla and Opera Support.
Also I would like to make clear that I have no objections that HTML5 can support multiple and competing codecs. Just like we can use GIF, JPEG or PNG images on the web. And when better codec is develop the HTML5 should support it.
 
[citation][nom]SAL-e[/nom]Thank you. This is good news really. I hope that Apple now helps Google to improve the Ogg Theora and get hardware vendors on board. Just like Google and Apple are working on improving the WebKit together. Because this is still a plugin not a native Safari support like Mozilla and Opera Support.Also I would like to make clear that I have no objections that HTML5 can support multiple and competing codecs. Just like we can use GIF, JPEG or PNG images on the web. And when better codec is develop the HTML5 should support it.[/citation] I completely agree.
 
agree with dudeabides123 ,

that aside , thsi amy spell the end of Flash , but it wont by any means spell the end of for adobe , adobe's creative find's uses in more industries than can be counted , from just general advertising art , to game art , to graphic design . sure flash might go the way of the dodo , but adobe is by no means through as a company , any one that thinks this , is a total moron.
 
There is enough Internet for every body: Flash, JavaFx, Silverlight, HTML5, etc.

Even though Flash is mostly proprietary, I will always be thankful that they provided a client for Linux machines, it was the one tool that allowed me to move to Linux 24/7 half a decade ago.
If companies want to conspire against the first successful implementor of a technology, the should go first after Windows OS, they should make OS5 (Linux or BSD) and push windows out of spot it has had for decades.
Or they should push Apple out of the smart-phone market with Smart Phone OS5 (Android) and push them out of the market.
 
"Soooo, you guys are now okay with apple not liking flash. God I love it. Long live the sway of the human mind."

Flash has a lot of issues, I doubt anyone tries to deny that. Microsoft still supports it though, since they realize its importance.

Apple doesn't dislike flash due to any issues it may have but because it neatly circumvents their App Store.

It's got nothing to do with disliking flash and everything to do with how Apple and Microsoft is handling the issue.
 
[citation][nom]smlong426[/nom]The problem is that Flash isn't just video. It also includes games and interactivity. The HTML5 canvas they're talking about is just video. So, right off the bat, it can't replace Flash.[/citation]
No, HTML5 will allow web based games using Open GL, much faster and more efficient than Flash.
 
Flash brings a reliable and consistent experience across operating systems. It allows a web developer to write something that's going to work and look exactly the same no matter what OS people use. No wonder apple and microshaft are against it, it allows users freedom of choice.

On a side note, I have to agree with dudeabides123; adobe is the primary reason for Apple's success. With CS5, any serious artist will have to use windows since the hardware acceleration doesn't work nearly as well on mac. Apple's forgotten what made it successful I guess.
 
[citation][nom]domenic[/nom]Whether Apple likes or dislikes Flash is not the point. Microsoft (or most other sane companies) would never release a device (today) that did not support Flash. That's just stupid.[/citation]


Except for Windows Phone 7. Oh, I get it. It's not out yet. But they will release a device shortly that will not support flash. Will you retract your idiotic statement at that time? Or no and just continue to be an idiotic fanboy?
 
[citation][nom]Exodite2[/nom]"Soooo, you guys are now okay with apple not liking flash. God I love it. Long live the sway of the human mind."Flash has a lot of issues, I doubt anyone tries to deny that. Microsoft still supports it though, since they realize its importance.Apple doesn't dislike flash due to any issues it may have but because it neatly circumvents their App Store.It's got nothing to do with disliking flash and everything to do with how Apple and Microsoft is handling the issue.[/citation]

Windows 7 - Supports flash
OS X - Supports flash

Windows Phone 7 - Does not support flash
iPhone 3G/3GS - Does not support flash

I can definitely see your point...
 
That IE 9 will support HTML 5 video was a given. However...

- h.264 is not an open standard: you have to pay a license to create, distribute and read content encoded in that format (the MPEG allows you to open online videos until 2016 for free - not create any, not distribute any). It is an industry standard.

- Theora's quality got a bad rap a while ago due to badly tuned encoders (especially ffmpeg). Recent work on it got it much closer to h.264.

- currently, Safari + Quicktime supports h.264 and Theora; Chrome supports both out of the door, but Chromium won't support h.264; Opera will support Theora only in version 11; and Firefox supports Theora since version 3.5.

That leases IE as the only browser without any Theora support whatsoever. And since it outright rejects any form of plugin for video, it'll mean the following:

- use h.264 as a video format, and you'll outright reject 20% of your audience (Firefox+Chromium+Opera).
- use Theora as a video format, and you'll outright reject 20% of your audience (IE 9 users).

Since IE 9 won't be available on XP, the XP user base will need to use another browser - and all the alternatives are Theora-capable.

Content creators will use Theora: people that can't pay the $5M fee to be an h.264 creator/broadcaster will thus be forced to say: "viewable with any browser but IE".

Yay open web.
 
[citation][nom]tayb[/nom]Except for Windows Phone 7. Oh, I get it. It's not out yet. But they will release a device shortly that will not support flash. Will you retract your idiotic statement at that time? Or no and just continue to be an idiotic fanboy?[/citation]
Because anyone who disagrees with you is obviously both an idiot and a fanboy, right?
 
Flash isn't just about video player inside the browsers. interactivities, animations and consistent layout accross browsers are a few other points Flash has over standard browsers.
still a long way towards the end of Adobe Flash. This will only make (hopefully) Adobe develop Flash more seriously. Competition is always good
 
I dont hate Adobe or Flash.
I dont hate Apple or Microsoft.
I dont hate Real network.

But I see Tech for what it is...always Evovling..

CompuServe=>AOL/Earthlink=>DSL/CABLE==>Fiber Optic
DOS=>Win95/98/me=>WinXP=>Win7
Apple II=>iMac (today)
HTml 3 =>Html 4...then total Video Codec Mess...Enter Macromedia Flash to bring order...===>HTML5
Tech just evolves..

Flash served its purpose when it was needed, but I feel it should Die off by its self and not be killed off by
Apple or M$..People will stop using it... Trust me it will happen.. almost nobody uses Real Player now.. It will happen.
 
[citation][nom]domenic[/nom]Whether Apple likes or dislikes Flash is not the point. Microsoft (or most other sane companies) would never release a device (today) that did not support Flash. That's just stupid.[/citation]

With a million sold....damn Apple is soooo stupid!!
 
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