[SOLVED] MSI Crosshair 15 B12UGZ keeps restarting when using both DIMMs (runs fine on 1 only)

[otringal]

Hey, there! Ok here it goes... So, my brand-new laptop has a big problem: ever since I got it, it kept resetting randomly (anywhere between 10 min to 2 hours). Just so that you know, I'm not gonna ask why this happens, as I've already figured it out. BUT I really need your help with the next steps from here on out.

So, the reason for the resets is the fact that both my memory slots are occupied with 32GB of ADATA DDR4 modules running at 3200MHz, with 22-22-22-52 latency. That means I have a matched kit of 2x 32GB = 64GB in total. And the laptop says it's supporting 64GB of RAM, so I thought ok, since the resets smelled like bad RAM to me, I started testing the memory with both MemTest86, as well as Windows 11's own Memory Diagnostic Tool (Run -> mdsched.exe). And guess what, when both slots are populated, MemTest86 restarts around Test 13 (Hammer test) near the end, so it takes up quite some time (2-3h). Even better, MDSCHED (when pressing F1 for Options and selecting "Extended" mode) restarts super early on, around the 3-5% mark after no more than a few minutes. Again, both MemTest86 and MdSched fail with both DIMMs are present. If I am to remove any one of the modules from its slot, tests are passing great with no issues, no resets, no matter how I swap the DIMMs, they work fine individually, no matter what slot they're sitting in.

Therefore, I thought to myself, ok, let's do all types of BIOS upgrading/downgrading and see if anything solves it. No success. Then I started messing with my MSI BIOS settings in Advanced Mode (Left Alt + Right Ctrl + Right Shift + F2 for those who might find this useful) and with the now-unlocked THOUSANDS of options (yes, it's overkill), I played around with the clock limits, the 1DPC/2DPC settings, 2R performance optimizations, forcing 1R on both DIMMs, messing with the gear ratios (G1 and G2 work, G4 won't even post) etc., all that I could possibly think of. And still nothing. It's so strange, since it's clear that my ADATA modules are not faulty and also the motherboard memory slots themselves are not faulty, it's something about the memory controller possibly not being able to cope with both DIMMs running simultaneously for some reason.

Then another weird thing that popped up in the BIOS' memory settings is this following status page where I have some (possibly SPD) information which gives us (color coding is mine, you'll see below why):

• MC0 CH0 DIMM0 - Populated & Enabled, 32768 MB DDR4), 2 Ranks, Unknown manufacturer
• MC0 CH0 DIMM1 - Not Populated / Disabled
• MC1 CH0 DIMM0 - Populated & Enabled, 32768 MB DDR4), 2 Ranks, Unknown manufacturer
• MC1 CH0 DIMM1 - Not Populated / Disabled

If you pay close attention to the color coding that I've used above (in order to make things easier to spot) you'll see that apparently my laptop only has 1x memory channel (CH0), I am using the same DIMM0 on this only channel, but there are 2x different memory controllers (MC0 and MC1), all while the manufacturer is not even properly detected (it's ADATA, not some cheap unbranded RAM from AliExpress). This doesn't make any sense to me at all, it's physically incorrect. I mean, I only have 2 DIMMs, not 4 like on some desktops where you can risk populating the slots incorrectly for dual-channel mode, so I should have DIMM0 and DIMM1 populated, they should be running in dual-channel mode and there should be only 1x memory controller. Am I missing something here?

Any ideas, guys? Please help me understand if there's any way to fix this apart from buying new RAM and just hope for the best. Because for reasons I don't wanna get into right now (like this post already being huge), this is really not a good option for me at the moment. Also, I won't be able to get my hands on another set of 2x RAM modules to test the motherboard's brand compatibility for at least 2-3 more weeks and I really need to do a lot of work in the meantime. So, is there any modern-day expert out there who might be able help me out on this? Cause I used to think of myself as one like back 15+ years ago, but I'm not sure I'm aware of all the current trends and options when it comes to configuring the latest hardware.

Thank you sooo much!!!

 

[Darkbreeze]

Were these memory modules purchased together in a single kit or were they individual kits of the same model?

Initial guess would be, if not due to separate kits, that it is simply just due to being relatively cheap quality Adata memory. No, Adata isn't as bad as a lot of others like unbranded AliExpress memory but it's definitely not top quality memory like G.Skill, Crucial or Corsair either.

 

[otringal]

Ah, so sorry for not being clear about this. Not sure if they were a set or not, but they came with the laptop, basically identical to one another, same brand, same timings and frequency, even same manufacturing date (as far as MemTest86 says it's Week 40 of 2022 for both of them), with very close serial numbers, so I guess they're as much of a "set" as they can be, without me really seeing them coming from the same box. But even those that do come in a box are basically just matched DIMMs just as mine are, so I guess it's safe to say they're a set indeed.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Actually, "matched DIMMs" is exactly what they are when they come from the factory in the same kit, and they will have been tested for compatibility with each other even if they came from the same exact production run using identical components to assemble the module. Unfortunately, those that don't come in the same kit might not have an identical composition, or identical characteristics, even if they are identical model numbers, as I've shown here:

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/amd-ram-compatibility.3210050/#post-19785792

That being said, the fact that both your modules have the same production date makes it at least moderately suggestive that they did in fact come together but is in no way a certainty as they could just as easily have been two individual memory modules bought at the same time and therefore likely manufactured at the same time. But in any case, even DIMMs that come together can occasionally make it through testing, for whatever reason, and end up not wanting to play nice together. I've seen it enough times to confidently say it IS a thing and does happen.

None of that really helps you though, but the fact is I think you already know the answer to your own question and aren't going to like it when I confirm it, loosely anyhow. I think it's probable that this is either a lack of adequate support for those modules in the BIOS or you have two DIMMs that just aren't going to want to play nice together. Since you just bought this brand new, my advice would not be to replace the memory, it would be to return the unit and make them give you one that actually works the way it's supposed to.

You should not have to fix problems on brand new hardware. Especially if the problem isn't due to something you've introduced into the equation. If returning it is not an option for you for whatever reason, then my advice would be to simply use it for now with 16GB, order a higher quality kit from Corsair, G.Skill, Crucial, Samsung, SK Hynix, Mushkin or Micron, and swap them out whenever you get them. If the memory problem isn't resolved by that, then you pretty much need to get the manufacturer of the laptop involved because there is really only so much you can do to try and resolve memory issues on laptop boards unlike with desktop boards where there is generally a lot more potential for flexibility in the memory configuration.

It could even just be a UEFI BIOS problem and you might want to contact MSI anyhow to see if perhaps they have a problem specific or beta BIOS that addresses the problem but hasn't been released onto the product support page. This too occasionally happens, and I've encountered it before, but not often. Still, on a brand new machine I think it would make sense to get them involved and if it can't be resolved, get a refund and move on to another machine.

 

[otringal]

I know I should not be doing this and I 200% agree. And yes, I cannot return it because of some messy complicated policy with the dealer I got this from. So I'm trying my best to solve this without hitting a case where indeed the laptop will be the one to blame. So for now I'm trying all sorts of BIOS hacks and eventually I'll try with buying new RAM (yay...). Can you think of any other BIOS fine-tuning I could try? I already tried messing with the clock limits (went down from 3200 all the way to 2400), changing the 1DPC/2DPC settings, disabling the 2R performance optimizations, forcing 1R on both DIMMs, messing with the gear ratios (G1 and G2 work the same, G4 won't even post). Any other thing that crosses your mind? Thanks!!!

EDIT: regarding the kit vs. single question above, I checked based on the serial number on the ADATA website. Apparently mine are "Bulk". Not sure what this means, since the other options are "Retail", "Single Tray" and "Dual Tray". So out of these 4 options I'm not sure if Bulk means a kit or not, also since there's single/dual tray, not sure if my bulk means it's ready to be ran in Dual Channel or not. Their advertisement page says it supports Intel gen 8,9 and 10 processors. Mine is a gen 12 and again... not sure if ADATA is politely telling me to forget about it since it's not really supposed to be installed on an i7-12700.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Bulk are what gets shipped to prebuilt system manufacturers, in "bulk". They don't get retail packaged memory kits like you'd see at the store or order from Amazon. This is why there are OFTEN problems with installed memory on OEM and prebuilt systems and also why a lot of these companies ship these machines already hamstrung, with only a single DIMM installed. They don't really care. It's your problem after you buy it and if you add memory and it won't play nice with whatever it came with, that too is your problem. But "bulk" memory modules are unlikely to have been tested for compatibility with each other so trying to figure out if they are matched is now a waste of time.

All memory is "dual channel" as far as that goes, since there is no such thing as "single channel" or "dual channel" memory. The motherboard and CPU architectures are what determine how many memory channels can be utilized and the exact same model of memory could be in a single, dual, triple, quad, hexa or octa channel memory configurations so long as it was being used with all compatible DIMMs.

The specs for that memory saying it's compatible with "8, 9 and 10" doesn't mean it is ONLY compatible with those generations. It's likely that the marketing documentation was simply created before there were 11th, 12th or 13th Gen products and has just never been updated. Not unusual for "Engrish" documentation or in this industry in general. Even motherboard manufacturers sometimes do this, especially with their QVL memory compatibility lists, because that small sampling of compatible kits is done prior to initial release and then usually not revisited later when other newer kits are released or when BIOS updates improve compatibility. They do it, then forget about it.

So the problem here is not a certainty, but I think it's highly likely that you just have two bulk DIMMs that don't like each other OR that the board simply cannot find common ground for due to some kind of difference in it's physical makeup. Whether that is because of different ICs used, better binning on one versus the other or simply bad luck, who can say? It happens all the time though. Almost every day for the last 7 years I've seen at least one example per day of this here, mostly on desktop systems but sometimes on laptops as well. So, it's not particularly uncommon.

Are you sure this laptop does not have any permanently soldered memory in it that might be affecting compatibility? Some laptops have two DIMMs already soldered PLUS two additional DIMM slots. Just wondering about the fact that it's reporting four DIMM slots when we know there are only two. I think this might be very relevant. Maybe has something to do with the laptop not actually supporting dual rank modules and it sees each rank as a separate channel but there is nothing to report since there is actually not another. IDK on that.

 

[otringal]

Yup, had a feeling about the "Bulk" thing given its name, I just wasn't sure. Thanks a lot for clearing that up for me. As far as the "dual channel" memory I know there's no such thing, it's all about the "matchability" of those particular DIMMs so that the mobo can treat them as such. I was trying to guess based on the ADATA naming convention if somehow, they don't deem "bulk" as good for dual channel operation as a given.

About the whole report list in the BIOS... well I'm 100% positive there's nothing soldered on the front facing side of the mobo. I did not take the whole thing apart to really check the backside as well, but I guarantee there isn't. Otherwise the capacity would be higher. Also, those 2 "ghost" slots say "unpopulated/disabled", while the ones with the 32GB sticks are present. The BIOS also shows some DDR5 options in some advanced menus, while the laptop clearly doesn't support it, so my guess is that MSI developed a bit of a semi-generic BIOS that works for a small number of models with similar configurations and I'm just seeing things that are available in other systems but not mine. Really crappy way to do a BIOS if that's the case.

As far as the ranks go, I did change an option in the BIOS to completely disable 1R out of the 2, for both DIMMs, but I was expecting this to turn my 32GB into 16GB sticks from a "usable capacity" point of view, but weirdly enough, 1R or 2R, Windows reports the same 32x2=64... not really sure if that's normal. Also the 1DPC vs. 2DPC didn't seem to have any effect, but maybe I'm not fully aware of what the observable difference should be.

All in all, what's your opinion... what are my chances to solve this mess by buying a retail kit (e. g. Crucial or Kingston)? Are my chances higher to have a problem in the laptop's mem controller on the mobo or should that be fine, meaning the current ADATA DIMMs are at fault? Asking cause of course I don't wanna risk spending 200-300 more bucks for nothing.

P. S.: after so many restarts, today my Windows decided to no longer let me use my BitLocker PIN to allow access, so I had to use the recovery key. Wasn't sure what the connection was until I managed to get past that and the Windows Login screen also told me that I can no longer use my PIN for logging into Windows. After reading some articles I understood that the many resets I had caused the TPM to think it was being attacked in a brute-force mode, so I had to suspend it, clear it and resume again, re-setting up the whole BitLocker shabang once more... The perks of having your laptop restarted so many times

 

[Darkbreeze]

Sub models of that laptop seem to be DDR5 based so it's likely there is one BIOS working for multiple models. Weird, but not unheard of. Probably saves money on having to have third party develop multiple BIOSes. Again, IDK on that as it's not common but also not unheard of.

Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee or even offer a probability of success short of trying it. The good news is that unless you live in a region where returning products isn't feasible you can usually try it and if it doesn't work, return it. People do this all the time with memory and motherboards. Kind of rides the gray edge of moral acceptance but it's a pretty common practice so you wouldn't be doing anything thousands of others don't do every day.

What country or region are you in?

 

[otringal]

Ah, for the RAM it won't be a problem to return it, I'm in the EU, I just didn't want to order something for testing purposes, knowing there's a chance I'll be returning it not because of the product, but because of a possible laptop problem. It's... morally unethical from my point of view But if all other options will fail, I'll probably have to give it a shot and hope for the best.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Right, which is why I said it rides the edge of what's morally ok to some people including myself. People doing this all the time is why MY costs go up on things and why I usually just keep any hardware I buy, IF I buy any, for testing, and just use it in the future on another system. But, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I don't really think there ARE any other options. I think the problem is a physical one, with the RAM itself, and not with the configuration of the RAM. Sometimes kids simply will not play nice together no matter what you do but are fine when by themselves. This is probably very much the same.

 

[otringal]

I checked some options I have here. Since it's a gamble, what would you suggest in my case, from the following choices I have:

• G.Skill RipJawz
• Kingston Fury
• Crucial
• Corsair Vengeance

As I said, I know it's a guessing game, but I'd like to have your personal opinion as well, as I also have my own and I've heard others' in the meantime, but one more doesn't hurt Again, have in mind my laptop is an MSI Crosshair 15 12BUGZ with already known problems when paired with ADATA. And I need reliability when running both DIMMs in Dual Channel, and it's a quite high capacity (2x32GB). Otherwise, 1 DIMM at a time works flawless even with the ADATA, so I'm really looking into what's the most reliable brand when paired in Dual Channel at 64GB capacity. Thanks so much!

 

[Darkbreeze]

Where in the EU are you? What country?

 

[otringal]

I'm constantly moving around from one country to another (even now, as we speak), but consider Romania or Bulgaria for the purpose of this discussion, as that's the region where I usually get my parts from. Why are u asking, are there certain things I should look out for, like region-specific pluses/minuses for certain vendors?

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, so neither of those countries have a very good presence on PC Partpicker unlike the majority of countries. I was simply looking to find a couple of decent recommendations for you that would be regionally relevant. Doesn't seem to be any though. Personally I'd recommend G.Skill Ripjaws or Trident Z over most other options. For Corsair, I would avoid the Vengeance LPX modules for any system that has already exhibited being finicky about the memory configuration but the Corsair Dominator platinum are usually a good choice.

In order of preference for a laptop I'd probably go G.Skill, Corsair (But not LPX modules), Crucial, Samsung, Mushkin, for DDR4 SODIMMs, but it really depends on what is actually available and it's kind of hard to say "go with this brand" because just like anything, most these brands tend to have product stacks that go from not so great all the way up to excellent depending on what IC's are used on the module. No different than ATX power supplies or storage devices.

It's a lot easier to make recommendations if you have a list of specific models that are actually available to you and to be honest there aren't a whole lot of DDR4 2 x32GB SODIMM kits out there.

 

[otringal]

Thanks a lot! To be honest I kept digging since then and things aren't looking good. It seems as though many MSI laptops have the exact same problem as mine when stretched out to the 2x32GB configuration. I also made a thread myself on MSI's forums where someone else has the same problem. And then I found more. I'll leave the links here just in case anyone is able to spot any similarity and help out somehow:

My own thread (MSI forums)
Someone else's (MSI forums)
A good RAM gotcha explanation thread which then evolved with other people's problems (MSI forums)
And another one (Reddit)

The thing is I'm not sure buying new RAM will actually solve it, since all those guys tried many other brands unfortunately 🙁
Thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[Darkbreeze]

Eh, you know, it would be different if there were hundreds of similar threads, but five or ten threads or people with a problem really don't equate to a widespread or proven problem. Especially where memory is involved, it usually just means something ain't playing nice and the majority of the time that's because the memory is not factory tested for compatibility but instead is purchased separately or like in your case, they were bulk DIMMs, which again means they weren't tested together.

What you SHOULD do, regardless that you "had problems" with the retailer and "it's complicated" is take it back and demand they refund your money and get something else because if the 64GB of memory THEY installed in it won't work that is a fundamentally "their" problem, not yours. But, since you say you travel around a lot I'm going to assume you probably bought this in a country you are no longer in and are unable to do this, or something along those lines, which then makes it a "you" problem. Or something along those lines.

Plus, two of those threads are the exact same thread AND are dealing with MSI desktop boards which are an entirely different can of worms than an MSI laptop board. Not even in the same part of the universe really. I mean, they're still MSI and they still use memory and that is about the only thing that links them at all. Totally different kind of chipset configuration, totally different CPU architecture since the mobile CPUs are not even remotely similar to the desktop CPUs (Except on a few very niche custom laptops that use desktop CPUs on their custom made mobile boards like some Clevo products).

The fact that the documentation indicates it only supports up to 32GB of RAM might be accurate, or might have only been accurate based on the BIOS support that was available for that chipset through Intel at the time, or might have been created before there were compatible 32GB SODIMMs, or any number of reasons, but I'd guess that MSI may have falsely advertised support for 64GB because the DDR5 models support that and maybe the chipset used for the DDR4 models, on their products, does not.

It may be that only MSI technical support can answer that question unless you can find evidence of another user with the exact same model (And sub-model) of laptop as what you have, having proven that it will work with a full 64GB installed.

Honestly, hard for me to say since I don't know what you do with this machine but it would be highly unusual for the majority of people to have any ability at all to utilize 64GB on any machine, much less a laptop, unless you are running very high end scientific, 3D/CAD, video production/graphics or complex VMs on it, so maybe you could save yourself some money and get by with a 2 x16GB kit or if the capacity is more important to you than the bandwidth, simply use one of the 32GB DIMMs you have and sell the other one. I'm sure you have reasons for wanting 64GB I'm just not sure that for most people that's a realistic need. But for you it might be, IDK.

 

[otringal]

This machine will be used for extremely heavy Unreal Engine 5.1 development and apart from Epic Games recommending 64GB, I also can confirm that the jump from 32GB to 64GB is very noticeable. The final products indeed will not need 64GB, you can run the app/game/VR thing with 32GB or even 16GB, however the editor/IDE and all the resources being used during development easily jump over 50% when having 64GB installed, and I haven't even begun populating the project to the point it will be later on.

About returning it, unfortunately the policy with these guys is so silly (for lack of a better word... ahem)... yes, it is within warranty, but if there's anything wrong with it, you cannot ask for your money back, you have to first send it to an authorized service point, so that they can "fix" it. And I know very well there's nothing to fix, plus I don't want anyone using a soldering station and doing weird patches on the mobo, just to try and trick some things and make it seem like it's working. It will be a lot of hassle with no good outcome, since there's nothing any service can do. It's a firmware problem in the sense that the BIOS and MC are still not properly behaving at full load with 2x32GB. They have more fine tuning to do, but unfortunately there have been 6x BIOS updates and not once did anybody fix something related to this, which makes me think they're oblivious to the problem, as most people are still not using 64GB, so I'm a bit of an isolated case 🙁

 

[Darkbreeze]

Well, your use case makes sense then for having 64GB. Unfortunately, I think you've discovered that this model is at the least going to be very problematic and at worst, simply not possible.

You might have to bite the bullet on this one, sell what you have now or use it as a backup machine, and buy another one that you FIRST verify through semi-extensive research will accommodate all the specific requirements you have for what it needs to be capable of.

Unfortunately, I think you might not have much in the way of options about that, but I WOULD at least make the effort to contact ACTUAL MSI support first to see if perhaps they have as yet unmentioned suggestions or even an unreleased BETA BIOS that might resolve your issue. That would not be unheard of as I've seen and experienced it myself before. They often have unreleased BIOS versions that address specific problems. In fact, a number of different types of hardware manufacturers commonly have firmware releases that the public almost never sees unless you contact them about a specific issue that they are able to resolve but don't release to the general public because there either aren't enough people facing that problem to do so or because it IS a beta option that might have unexpected OTHER problems as a result of using it.

It's unlikely, but worth at least reaching out about if you haven't already. And I don't mean on their forums, I mean directly to MSI customer support.

 

[otringal]

I have reached out to them and now waiting for a reply. I doubt they'd have unreleased BIOS versions though, as apparently they're completely unaware of this problem after 6x updates already. But let's see I'll keep you posted!

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying it's probable. I'm just saying it happens. I've personally seen it both with motherboards and with NZXT's CAM based products, specifically the Grid+ v2 firmware, which I don't use anymore because I refuse to use any NZXT products that require the use of the CAM software (Because it continuously collects your personal information, of all kinds, and sends it home to them), but which apparently then was conflicting with something driver or firmware related on my Mellanox SFP+ 10GBe network card. And it did resolve it. So, it happens sometimes.

Didn't seem likely here but worth checking on anyhow. Did you point them to the fact that their own information contradicts itself and that the manual shows only 32GB is supported. I would be sure to do that when you have the chance.

 

[otringal]

Oh, of course I pointed that out 😀 Also, the other guy having the exact same problem as mine on the 17" model did the same thing as I did. My ticket is still waiting for an answer, but his already received an answer and tbh it's quite the BS I expected... Regarding the conflicting information they gave no explanation as to "why" it's like that, they just said "the laptop supports 64GB". That's it... And about the stability issues themselves or having any suggestion on what RAM brand to use, they basically said we should "always have the RAM upgrade performed by an authorized MSI service only". Like I said, typical corporate "don't bother us anymore, you already gave us money, so we have no further reason to care about you".

 

[Darkbreeze]

Well, for me at least (Sorry, I realize this doesn't help you any), it can be chalked up as "this is just another reason to avoid MSI". Among MANY other reasons. Poor customer support. Poor quality control. Poor documentation. Extremely poor quality on it's lower end budget products. And crap like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6BXwCJtaZE

 

[otringal]

Did I mention that the Serial Number sticker's imprint went off as soon as I wiped my laptop clean with some alcohol? No other laptop (even cheap ones priced 1/5 of this one) ever did that, as the serial number was either etched in plastic, or used some plastic-coated stickers that don't wear off as soon as you touched them. This one, however, has plain paper stickers, just like the ones you buy for kids to stick on the fridge. Funny enough, the front stickers near the keyboard, which hold the "Intel Core i7", "nVidia GeForce RTX" and "HDMI" logos are indeed plastic-coated and can endure tons of punishment, especially since they're in a high friction area from using the keyboard. Did they do this with THE only sticker on the back which was truly important, unlike the ones on the front which hold no purpose other than advertising? Of course not. That was my first red flag after cleaning my laptop, I felt something was off, almost like when you buy a suspiciously cheap iPhone off eBay, just to slowly discover over the course of the next 2 hours that it might actually be a fake. Same feeling I had here. I mean, I know you can't really get a counterfeit MSI gaming laptop (or can you?!)... but it sure felt the same way

 

[Darkbreeze]

You can get counterfeit anything, especially if you're in a country that doesn't have very good consumer protection laws. Cheapskate third party fly by night retailers do this all the time AND I've seen MANY cases where people have gone through pains to fraudulently return something that wasn't actually what it was supposed to be, and the retailer turning around and selling it again as that item that it actually isn't without taking any time to verify that it IS that item or actually works, at all. Even seen them swap heat spreaders on CPUs so that they can upgrade for free and that results in people getting an old CPU that won't even work in their system/motherboard but looking at the printing on the top of the heat spreader it seems exactly right until you dig into it further and realize, wait............

Like this thread:

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/cpu-won’t-fit-in-motherboard.3411892/#21632440

 

[otringal]

Wow, read that whole thread... speechless... anyway, even if I have my doubts about things, since it's not a severe case like that CPU, I can't really prove anything, just because an expensive laptop has some issues handling 64GB of RAM and the plastic/stickers look cheap or borderline counterfeit, it's not something I could backup with evidence. I don't think it's a fake, I think it's more like it's sooooo incredibly cheap, they basically gave consumers the raw specs and HW so that the performance is there (and it is), but then started cutting every corner hoping to save every other cent they could. Still not an excuse for having the serial number sticker dissolve 10x faster than the brand logos on the top lid, but... what can I say? MSI truly showed its quality in 2022... so ironic, as before buying this laptop I told everyone I'm choosing MSI over all other brands, since back in the day their motherboards were the sturdiest and most reliable. Them and ASUS, back 2003-2012 era were phenomenal. But I guess things changed for MSI at least, not sure how ASUS is doing. Wouldn't be surprised if Acer would actually be good nowadays 😀