I veered a bit off topic, but as you say it provided context.
The on topic bit was about motherboards. I am not sure which Gigabyte motherboard you would want, if you wanted a Gigabyte. It depends on the intended use. They do have a few motherboard that have lots of storage options, can handle hot CPUs and have good audio. But that's a very general description and we're not there yet.
One reason i stick with Gigabyte is that i know my way around them. I have another Gigabyte motherboard waiting to be assembled. I know the BIOSes, most of the line up, i am comfortable with their drivers. I'd considered an MSi and a couple of AsRocks, but the good boards were not available, and the bad one... it was bad. Awful.
Let's say if the question is about Gigabyte motherboards i know what i'm talking about (famous last words), even at the risk of being biased.
As for your problem reaching UEFI, can you not select a boot to BIOS option either from Windows recovery or using a motherboard hotkey/button? Does the manual say anything about that?
Some motherboards can skip the "press x key to enter UEFI/BIOS" step to speed up booting to OS. They provide an alternate way of reaching BIOS.
Briefly:
Win 10 is butt.
Win 7 was offered in 64 as well as 32 bit versions.
XP was nice but those days are over except for PCEmu. Also, who wants to run anthing XP? Almost all of it will work on 7.
Electronics in the olden days did not like being turned on and off. But i think that problem was solved.
I have no evidence running a PC for a long time will prolong it's lifespan. It's probably the other way around.
I screwed up my monitor purchase because i bought cheap. That was my error. Lesson learned.
It was genuinely -35C the day i signed up. Not being able to come up with a nickname, i went with that.
That's the EVO version from ~2009. Namely Seasonic M12II-620 EVO. In a nutshell, it is fully-modular version of S12II-620.
Specs: https://seasonic.com/m12ii-evo
What i used, was Seasonic M12II-850 EVO. It used to power my Haswell build for ~5 years, before i replaced it with Seasonic PRIME Ultra 650 80+ Titanium [SSR-650TR] unit.
Old PSU: Seasonic M12II-620 EVO [SS-850AM2 Active PFC F3]
New powerhouse next to a trusty workhorse.
New PSU: Seasonic PRIME Ultra 650 80+ Titanium [SSR-650TR]
"Active PFC" in the model name was to showcase the public that Seasonic new PSUs are using active PFC. It was around the time when PSUs started to use active PFC, compared to passive PFC and this is one option to showcase it.
Another such term regarding that era PSUs was "Haswell ready" or "Haswell compatible". You probably have seen it. It was to tell the public that the PSU is able to sustain CPU C6 and C7 sleep states, without running into an issue, where being unable to power back on, once PC was wakened from sleep.
E.g S12II series doesn't have the "Haswell ready" certification, since S12II PSUs have 50:50 chance to wake the PSU from deep sleep. Now, i tested that in-depth with my S12II-520 and my PSU had 0 issues waking up my PC from C6 and C7 deep sleep states. It even powered on from C7s and C8 sleep states (latter being the deepest sleep state i could define from my BIOS in my Skylake build).
So, anyone who were using PSUs that weren't Haswell ready, either: had to disable C6/C7 sleep states if issues did arise, not using sleep mode at all or were lucky enough that PSU worked fine with deep sleep states. It was a big issue back in the day. Nowadays, this is just but a memory of days gone and not an issue at all. (Unless you're using a PSU from that era.)
I didn't know too much about that. People whose knowledge i respected recommended SeaSonic and i went with their advice.
I don't remember M12II, or even S12IIs. It was 2012 so the details have faded. I can't remember what else was being considered only that i took a long time to pick components.
I might dig up the old receipt just to see what it cost. I remember it was the 2nd or 3rd most expensive component in that PC. And i was happy for it really, because i wanted a safe one.
None of us born with the knowledge of PSUs. It all comes from more knowledgeable people.
Decade ago, or so, i found out about Seasonic from one of the tech publications in Estonia (written in Estonian), where it was explained that not all PSUs are made by the brand who's name they carry. Instead, some brands use OEM units (e.g Corsair, EVGA) and some brands are the OEM themselves (e.g Seasonic, Super Flower). And it was further explained about the quality of different brands/OEMs. So, i decided to cut out the middleman (PSU brand) and buy my PSUs directly from the manufacturer. In this case, Seasonic.
In the time when S12II and M12II EVO were available, there were other Seasonic units as well that one could've bought. Like S12G, G-series, X-series (notorious in producing coil whine, but world's 1st 80+ Gold rated PSU), Platinum series and few years later Snow Silent.
Price wise, i payed (in chronological order, from oldest):
€64 - S12II-520
€98 - M12II-850 EVO
€206.80 - PRIME 650 80+ Titanium [SSR-650TD]
€101.50 - Focus+ 550 80+ Platinum [SSR-550PX]
€205.50 - PRIME Ultra 650 80+ Titanium [SSR-650TR]
Pretty unusual, yeah. Wonder why they didn't split the lineup? Maybe because 750w and 850w were a LOT of w back in the day. A higher end lineup consisting of DC-DC regulated units, that isn't going to sell so well due to a high price, maybe didn't seem like a great idea at the time.
I don't actually know why. But my guess would be that group-regulated units probably had severe issues in capacity of over 700W. So, DC-DC regulation was better choice.
The G12 GM550 is fine for what it is. A bottom of the barrel PSU. Is it safe? Yes. Is it anything else? No, but what do you want for .... er. $90??
Ok, it's not even cheap.
Well, it's supposed to be a cheap and safe PSU. I find it far too noisy but beggars can't be choosers. That said, if it's going for this ridiculous price, i'd much rather have a beQuiet! Pure Power 11 400w or SeaSonic FOCUS GX-750.
No really, lol @ this G12 GM550. How does it cost so much? I paid 70 euro for it, which is normal. Still too high but, eh. Europe.
I was always mystified why in chemistry, C is for c.arbon, O is for o.xygen, but Na is for sodium and K is for potassium. until decades later in Germany I bought some fertiliser, and found that in german, sodium is Natrium, and potassium is Kalium, ie Na = Na.trium, K = K.alium! which must mean the discoverer of these elements was german!
In periodic table, the element lettering is the few letters from element name. Usually first letters but not always. E.g:
H - Hydrogen
He - Helium
Pt - Platinum
U - Uranium
Zn - Zinc
And then, there are those who have modern names:
Au - Aurum (Gold)
Ag - Argentum (Silver)
Hg - Hydrargyrum (Mercury)
Fe - Ferrum (Iron)
Cu - Cuprum (Copper)
Sn - Stannum (Tin)
Na - Natrium (Sodium)
K - Kalium (Potassium)
Were both discovered by Sir Humpery Davy, in England. However, periodic table was made by Dmitri Ivanovich Mendeleev in Russia.
What makes the M12II EVO and S12II legendary, is their reliability.
Both series ever came with 5 years of warranty, but their reliability, far outlasting the warranty period, is what makes them legendary. These units earned Seasonic the reputation of producing reliable and good PSUs. Hence why i'm also using Seasonic units and often suggest them to others as well.
I like to keep my sig clean and simple, with links to my builds. So, reply area isn't stretched out and anyone who likes to know what i'm running, can look it up.
I used to have pcpp links to my builds with pics and info, but builds.gg site was created that is better for enthusiast computing (namely sharing their love projects) and now, my sig links to build.gg site. But i still have my builds listed in pcpp, where one can see the actual purchase prices of my individual components.
progress report: looking online, I found various tips to get to the UEFI screen, but none worked, eg one said to start the machine with the power button on till the machine beeps, didnt work.
then I found an interesting tip: remove all boot drives, which will force the machine to go to the UEFI.
so I opened up the machine, but the boot drive M2_3 is under the frozr, which is under the graphics card, so I cannot access it directly.
decided to study about removing the Be Quiet! removed the middle fan, and noticed I could access the latch with some form of rod, decided against a screwdriver because if it slipped, the metal could damage the mobo, went for a bic with the cap on, with the cap pressing the latch, and then removing the 2 thumbscrews holding down the graphics card, I did eventually manage to remove it.
where I dont need to remove the cooler from the CPU, just remove the middle fan, not keen on removing the cooler from the CPU as I would have to use thermal paste.
here is a photo of the scenario with the middle fan unit of the Be Quiet! removed:
Now with it removed, I then decided to move the boot M.2 drive to M2_4 as I can access that without removing the 4060. I removed it first without moving it to M2_4, then powered up the machine, without graphics card, without boot drive, and it did go to the UEFI screen.
decided to opt out of all the boot disk options, to try and force it to bring up the UEFI each time. also reconfigured all the fans, and finally some silence!
I wanted to put the ubuntu loader, because before all this, I could no longer boot to Linux Mint, as that requires the UEFI to reconfigure that, but the M.2 drive wasnt in the machine to force the UEFI, so its a catch 22 that I couldnt reconfigure to boot from the ubuntu loader.
decided also to keep the 4060 out of the machine, as I can then benchmark without graphics card.
on powering down, I installed the M.2 to the new M2_4 location. then powered up,
but now the machine wouldnt boot. tried again and again, eventually I cleared the CMOS, and now it eventually did boot, and I managed to get to the UEFI, reconfigured the fans yet again, and put the ubuntu loader as the boot option. as I can go from that to Windows, or to Linux Mint.
and now got to the Linux Mint boot screen, selected the windows loader, and then to my first Windows 10 install, which I had reconfigured to before all this.
I will try the idea you mention later of UEFI via Windows 10 plus reboot, I did try an option via the blue screen with different versions of Windows, but that didnt work. it does have an option to reboot to settings, but it doesnt work!
Now with the most recent visit to the UEFI I tried to reconfigure the memory to 6600. I clicked on the A-XMP Profile [1] and the DDR speed just remained at the slower number. whatever I did it didnt change, there was no indication that I had set it. further back I did manage, but I kept trying different things, and no idea what got it to change.
can you explain step by step eg annotate those UEFI screenshots the sequence of things I have to click?
I did do a benchmark of the machine now with the 4060 removed, and it was godawful, the graphics was bumpy, no smoothness, and I'd get a migraine if I had to watch that!
here is the benchmark for it at 1080, it is so awful that no point trying the faster rates!
but I need to reconfigure the memory to 6600 MHz for a fairer benchmark, as the above 4060 has much faster memory, than the CPU currently without the graphics card, which isnt comparing like with like.
In periodic table, the element lettering is the few letters from element name. Usually first letters but not always. E.g:
H - Hydrogen
He - Helium
Pt - Platinum
U - Uranium
Zn - Zinc
And then, there are those who have modern names:
Au - Aurum (Gold)
Ag - Argentum (Silver)
Hg - Hydrargyrum (Mercury)
Fe - Ferrum (Iron)
Cu - Cuprum (Copper)
Sn - Stannum (Tin)
Na - Natrium (Sodium)
K - Kalium (Potassium)
Were both discovered by Sir Humpery Davy, in England. However, periodic table was made by Dmitri Ivanovich Mendeleev in Russia.
he probably merged Davy's finding with the german words, unless the russians use the german word. the russian words for potato and petrol are the same as german, kartoffel and benzine (not sure of spelling), and the fruit "orange" is almost identical, the german word is apfelsine, russian is same without the f. a lot of russian words are identical to polish, eg oolitsa means street in both languages.the elite people at the top of russia are the same as the elite people at the top of Germany, both are french protestant diaspora. before the revolution in Russia, the top people spoke french. in WW1, the russian tsar, the english king, and the german Kaiser Wilhelm, were all grandsons of Queen Victoria! the russian tsar got his haemophilia gene from Queen Victoria! Queen Victoria married prussian prince Albert, but in fact they were both already related! from Google: "Victoria and Albert had one pair of grandparents in common, Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, and Countess Augusta Reuss of Ebersdorf, who were parents both of Albert's father Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and of Victoria's mother (and Ernest I's sister), Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld." potatos are from america, before the US was re-discovered by Columbus, there were no potatos in the old world. also no chocolate which is from the one of the aztec-inca-maya civilisations.
it is, its a wired USB keyboard. I have 2 keyboards on my desk, next to the monitor is the cheap Lidl wired USB keyboard for booting, and then nearer the edge of the desk is the upmarket logitech wireless one. also 2 mice, the upmarket logitech wireless handshake mouse and a wired USB one.
if you explain step by step how to set the A-XMP profile, I will benchmark the cpu without graphics card
I have ordered a 4T version of the 990 Pro M.2 to put at M2_3 under the graphics card. and opted for express delivery to arrive tomorrow, for an extra 2.99, free delivery would be Tuesday.
that 4T can then be used to backup the two 2T's, eventually I might get a faster 8T for M2_1, when these become available cheaper. which I can then use to backup the 2T, 2T and 4T. but there's no hurry, could be next year. 2T is in fact huge, the 4T and future 8T are more for backing up eg before trying risky things.
ok, tried this, it doesnt work! but it does lead to something which does work.
it basically just leads to the boot options, not the UEFI.
I then selected the ubuntu boot option, and then noticed one of the Linux Mint (or ubuntu) boot options is "UEFI Firmware Settings", so I tried that,
and it then reboots taking some time to the UEFI screen.
I tried this time just clicking the A-XMP [1] icon once, then rebooting, went to UEFI again, and this time it is 6600MHz!
also, interestingly, the UEFI option now seems to appear again like originally, will need to verify this. but what I think has happened is there is a low level UEFI configuration variable which says whether to offer the UEFI boot options or not. and the Windows reset has set that variable to "no". and Windows doesnt give an option to set it back, so now you are stuck without it. as they forgot to give an option to set the option.
but luckily the Linux boot option for UEFI possibly sets this option, and its back to normal.
possibly we are over the river now.
I'll never use the Windows reset option again. in future I will regularly backup the Windows drive, and if desktop icons dont work, I will reinstate a backup, I wont use any Windows supplied repair option.
anyway, with 6600MHz, I redid the benchmark at 1080, and guess what?
Thanks for the details and context of SeaSonic from the past decade. Fun read.
Interestingly, i don't remember EVO being part of the old PSUs name. But it must be so according to the serial number.
Higher frequency RAM puts higher load on CPU. And since iGPU is inside the CPU, it can perform worse. But to get 7 FPS or 9 FPS doesn't matter, since both are still a proper slide show.
iGPU is only good to display the desktop and surf the web. For beefier tasks, you'd want dGPU.
I did do a benchmark of the machine now with the 4060 removed, and it was godawful, the graphics was bumpy, no smoothness, and I'd get a migraine if I had to watch that!
And it is confirmed. Just running iGPU is far worse (as expected), compared to when you have dGPU in the system and you use that. While you got best performance when both GPUs were utilized (monitor hooked to MoBo).
Btw, you can use Unigine to benchmark your 2010 PC as well and compare it's 1080p Medium preset results to your new PC. Just to see how much of a diff there is.
You can even bench your laptop, if you so desire.
Though, there's more of Seasonic history that i know of, but i don't know Seasonic history that well. Only "a bit" about their consumer PSUs.
Seasonic was founded in 1975 (49 years ago) and Seasonic started to manufacture electronic test equipment. In 1981, Seasonic stated producing PSUs for workstations and servers. In 1995, Seasonic developed the ATX PSU, which now is the standard for all PSUs in PCs. 2003 was the year when Seasonic entered into consumer PSU market and started to make consumer PSUs. In 2009, Seasonic was the 1st in entire world, who made 80+ Gold efficiency PSU (X-series). 2021 saw the release of Syncro PC case, that is custom built to house Seasonic Connect PSU (intorduced in 2019), which simplifies cable management. In 2022, Seasonic released their MagFlow fans with innovative magnetic connection.
Full history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Sonic#History
Seasonic is a manufacturer (OEM) that specializes in PSUs. Seasonic is 3rd oldest PSU OEM in the world. 2nd oldest is Delta Electronics and 1st one is Flextronics.
Seasonic is one of the best (if not the best) PSU OEM in entire world. Other great PSU OEMs include: Super Flower (founded 1991) and Flextronics (founded 1969). Seasonic has made PSUs for: Antec, Cooler Master, Corsair (e.g AX-series), EVGA, NZXT, Riotoro, Silverstone and XFX as well.
When it comes to the Seasonic consumer PSUs, they can be grouped together to a "batch" to say so. And here, i only talk about consumer PSUs, leaving out OEM/industrial PSUs they've been making all these years.
Around 2003, Seasonic offered following consumer series: S12, M12, M12II, S12II (80+ White, 330W-500W), S12E, S12E+ and few lesser known ones as well.
These could be called as forerunners.
Next batch started around 2009 and where successors to the forerunners, containing of: S12II (80+ Bronze, 330W-620W), M12II EVO, S12G, S12D, M12D, G-, X-, Platinum series and few years later, Snow Silent.
Fun fact: S12D and M12D series are one of the very rare 80+ Silver rated PSUs.
In around 2016, Seasonic released 3rd batch, which includes the current PSUs and also their revisions, like: Focus, PRIME, Focus+ and PRIME Ultra. It also includes rarer series like AirTouch and Connect. In 2019, Seasonic renamed their PSUs within OneSeasonic Initiative and thus became: Focus GM/GX/PX and PRIME GX/PX/TX.
2021 saw another batch of new PSUs, including: B12, G12, S12II EVO, S12III, Core and Syncro. (Probably few more, can't recall all of them right now.)
And lastly 2022 saw the release of newest PSU in Seasonic lineup, the Vertex series. Which does have 12 years of warranty and is ATX 3.0 compatible but build quality wise, falls between Focus and PRIME series. (Contacted Seasonic to ask it directly.) Of course, with ATX 3.0 making waves, Seasonic also released ATX 3.0 variants of their Focus and PRIME lineup, like "Focus ATX 3.0" and "PRIME ATX 3.0".
So, with this, i'd say that what we currently have PSU wise from Seasonic, is 3rd batch of consumer PSUs.
where the green arrow points to the Linux Mint boot, and that then leads to the UEFI options.
the other options on that screen wont work for this machine,
I decided also to backup the 2010 PC's 500GB SSD system disk to an M.2 partition on the new machine, ie reconnect it to the new PC.
now I noticed an unusuality of the Phantek tower, that it has a 3rd SSD zone on the side opposite the door. but it only has 2 SSD cages. that zone was better for the 500GB SSD, as I have the remaining 2 supplied SATA cables and SATA power cables on that side, because earlier I had the 2 SATA magnetic WD Blue 2T drives on that side in the upper 3.5" cage. no lower cage to allow space for the base fan.
and then got quagmired in Linux problems, that the target M.2 disk partition wasnt writable. online found lots of tips that didnt work. eventually found a new idea, which is that apparently Windows 10 by default has a "fast start" option, where if you then run Linux Mint, the partition is locked for writing. this would then explain why Ubuntu only worked properly on the 2010 PC if I booted to XP first. if I used Win 10 32 bit, I would have problems with various drives. but boot to XP, do nothing, shut down, and now Linux would work perfectly.
most of the online tips try to fix this on the Linux side with things such as chmod, but in fact all that is a fool's errand where none of the tips worked. you have to fix it on the Windows side, to disable fast start. then merely booting to Windows 10, then rebooting to Linux, and all the NTFS drives can now be written to.
I havent tested this with Win 11, but with win 10, the MO is:
1. control panel -> Power Options
2. click "Choose what the power buttons do"
3. "Change settings that are currently unavailable"
4. "shutdown settings" unselect "Turn on fast start-up (recommended)"
where in fact it is NOT recommended!
digressing totally, I have an unusual problem which is that I put the "This PC" desktop shortcut to the top of the desktop. but every time I boot to Win 10, it is moved to the side of the desktop, every time I move it back to the top, and every time the next boot session it is moved to the side. is there any way to force it to remain at the top?
I left the backing up overnight, to find in the morning the monitor off, and nothing would restart it, then pressed the power on the PC and it rebooted. the last access to the backup was 530am, and decompressing it, the size was correct, so it must have worked.
I am going to collect the 4T drive for M2_3 after this message, but will benchmark as much as possible before reinstalling the graphics card. where the 4T will be installed first. because once the graphics card is reinstalled, I cannot access the 4T and 2T drives at M2_2 and M2_3 as I think the cover plate screws are eclipsed by the 4060!
its a form of being painted into a corner!
Now I dabbled with the UEFI graphics settings, and by changing from PEG to IGD, and also Game Mode, the 6600MHz benchmark is now slightly faster than the default memory frequency:
which again shows the importance of verifying alleged improvements, because you might not be over the river yet.
it could be that the bottleneck is in the CPU's memory caches!
this is something people forget that the speed of a modern CPU is largely about the memory caches, both the instruction caches and the data caches.
where having much faster memory might not make much difference, as the cache memory is vastly faster than the overclocked memory!
now sending the graphics to the monitor cannot be done from the caches, but that is probably done from "fake memory" which in fact belongs to the iGPU, and using the overclocked memory is a fool's errand, as that overclocked memory probably isnt the iGPU's memory for the monitor.
cpu --- cpu caches(B) --- memory(D) ---- iGPU memory(C)
the speed of the graphics if you have large caches may well be at (B) and (C), (D) might not improve things much.
if you do enough external testing of hardware or software, you can start to figure out how it works.
now if the caches are tiny, eg the 68000 I think had 0 caches, and the 68020 had tiny caches, then the memory speed becomes important, eg the Amiga had "fast memory" and slower "chip memory". for the chip memory, access was shared with the custom chips, and is a bit like (C) above. eg the Amiga's blitter only works in chip memory, where the blitter is a kind of precursor of graphics cards, "blit" = "block image transfer", where it did in hardware rectangular graphics ops, eg moving a rectangle, and I think logic combinations of rectangles (I forget as I havent looked at this for some 30 years!). I may misremember, but I think you could give it a truth table for combining rectangles. the amiga 500 used interleaved bitmaps for graphics, which is very slow via the CPU, the blitter dealt with the problem in hardware. interleaved bitmaps is now obsolete, nowadays either r,g,b component or entire pixel is aligned byte, word or long word. where the CPU does graphics much faster. the Amiga began using byte per pixel for 256 colours called "chunky colours" with the CD32 console in the early 1990s.
if you ran a program in fast memory it was much faster.
until now only at the start. because I was gradually adding ever more stuff, but after backing up from and to two magnetic sata WD Blue drives, I did disconnect those as I dont want magnetic drives continually running.
for the current problems, I did at some point remove all external things, including the USB3 10-hub. and to force the UEFI, I removed just the one M.2 drive with the 4 OSes, (win10_1, win11, Linux Mint 21.1, win10_2).
the general idea is to do some metalevel experimenting and then to reformat the entire drive from scratch, and this time make perfect or near perfect decisions. the problem is that of getting quagmired en route. one could just abandon ship every time one gets into quicksand, if that is an option. but I want to avoid over-quitting.
Win10_2 is where I did the reset, and I think that install now is toxic.
en route, I have learnt many subtleties and tricks. and I try to make notes of each. with Linux Mint I found by chance the best way to get the Firefox font a nice size was via the zoom function in the settings, and not via changing font sizes.
anyway, it probably is a good MO when one has hardware problems to remove as much as can be removed, and see if the problem persists. which is a hardware form of elimination diet. No idea why I didnt think of trying that, I think maybe because the hardware and system is so complicated. in the old days with much simpler hardware it was easier to think of such things.
I am sure long ago I once suggested on a forum to someone who couldnt get the early startup screen, to remove all hardware. but that was when I had the 2010 PC, and could think of such things! now my brain is too cluttered with too many ideas.
yes, looks like the machine now always boots, and always reboots, and for boots at least always shows the UEFI options, I havent scrutinised Windows to windows reboots whether these always give the UEFI options, where you select a different version of Windows to continue to, further back in time I think for that it skipped the UEFI options. but maybe now it wont. just now risked making Windows the default boot, as I now know how to load Linux from Windows, namely the screenshots earlier.
I also havent timed how long the boots and reboots take, possibly longer.
Higher frequency RAM puts higher load on CPU. And since iGPU is inside the CPU, it can perform worse. But to get 7 FPS or 9 FPS doesn't matter, since both are still a proper slide show.
iGPU is only good to display the desktop and surf the web. For beefier tasks, you'd want dGPU.
And it is confirmed. Just running iGPU is far worse (as expected), compared to when you have dGPU in the system and you use that. While you got best performance when both GPUs were utilized (monitor hooked to MoBo).
Btw, you can use Unigine to benchmark your 2010 PC as well and compare it's 1080p Medium preset results to your new PC. Just to see how much of a diff there is.
so far my only criticisms of Seasonic are that this one is larger than normal, which meant not enough space for the base fan. I do have the base fan, but no lower 3.5" cage to enable enough space.
it was Seasonic customer support who told me this PSU is longer than normal. their customer support is very good, quick reply. Noctua took ages to reply, and Phanteks never replied. I emailed all 3 firms about the base fan problem, partly to benchmark their customer support response times!
AND the naming is a bit confusing, where I bought the wrong one!
but the PSU itself has performed flawlessly, and is super silent.
Seasonic was founded in 1975 (49 years ago) and Seasonic started to manufacture electronic test equipment. In 1981, Seasonic stated producing PSUs for workstations and servers. In 1995, Seasonic developed the ATX PSU, which now is the standard for all PSUs in PCs. 2003 was the year when Seasonic entered into consumer PSU market and started to make consumer PSUs. In 2009, Seasonic was the 1st in entire world, who made 80+ Gold efficiency PSU (X-series). 2021 saw the release of Syncro PC case, that is custom built to house Seasonic Connect PSU (intorduced in 2019), which simplifies cable management. In 2022, Seasonic released their MagFlow fans with innovative magnetic connection.
Full history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Sonic#History
Seasonic is a manufacturer (OEM) that specializes in PSUs. Seasonic is 3rd oldest PSU OEM in the world. 2nd oldest is Delta Electronics and 1st one is Flextronics.
Seasonic is one of the best (if not the best) PSU OEM in entire world. Other great PSU OEMs include: Super Flower (founded 1991) and Flextronics (founded 1969). Seasonic has made PSUs for: Antec, Cooler Master, Corsair (e.g AX-series), EVGA, NZXT, Riotoro, Silverstone and XFX as well.
years in the game is very important, as a firm will gradually run into the main problems. startups can do well when formed by people who left an established firm.
in town once, there was a guy wearing a T shirt with slogan:
practice doesnt make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect, the quote attributed to some famous racing driver.
ie its not just time, but whether you utilise the time intelligently. with a firm it does depend on how the firm is organised.
eg when I had my kitchen renovated, the firm was super efficient, scheduling the work very soon, and synchronising several different firms. eg one firm demolished the original kitchen, another did the main installation, and an external electrician was brought in to do the electrics. the guy doing the main installation, said his firm also install for other firms such as Ikea.
When it comes to the Seasonic consumer PSUs, they can be grouped together to a "batch" to say so. And here, i only talk about consumer PSUs, leaving out OEM/industrial PSUs they've been making all these years.
Around 2003, Seasonic offered following consumer series: S12, M12, M12II, S12II (80+ White, 330W-500W), S12E, S12E+ and few lesser known ones as well.
These could be called as forerunners.
Next batch started around 2009 and where successors to the forerunners, containing of: S12II (80+ Bronze, 330W-620W), M12II EVO, S12G, S12D, M12D, G-, X-, Platinum series and few years later, Snow Silent.
Fun fact: S12D and M12D series are one of the very rare 80+ Silver rated PSUs.
In around 2016, Seasonic released 3rd batch, which includes the current PSUs and also their revisions, like: Focus, PRIME, Focus+ and PRIME Ultra. It also includes rarer series like AirTouch and Connect. In 2019, Seasonic renamed their PSUs within OneSeasonic Initiative and thus became: Focus GM/GX/PX and PRIME GX/PX/TX.
2021 saw another batch of new PSUs, including: B12, G12, S12II EVO, S12III, Core and Syncro. (Probably few more, can't recall all of them right now.)
And lastly 2022 saw the release of newest PSU in Seasonic lineup, the Vertex series. Which does have 12 years of warranty and is ATX 3.0 compatible but build quality wise, falls between Focus and PRIME series. (Contacted Seasonic to ask it directly.) Of course, with ATX 3.0 making waves, Seasonic also released ATX 3.0 variants of their Focus and PRIME lineup, like "Focus ATX 3.0" and "PRIME ATX 3.0".
main problem I can see with Seasonic is confusion for the customer, that too many product names, and the titles too complicated to remember.
this is a problem also with Intel and AMD CPUs, that too many different options. a lot of fantastic technology will never be bought entirely because of the confusion.
although they have to state if it is ATX 3.0, that shouldnt be part of the name, ie if you delete the ATX 3.0 you should still be able to identify the item.
this is a matter of psychology,
as soon as I see a standard eg ATX or USB or SATA, I assume that isnt part of the name, but is clarifying what the item does.
I bought the wrong one because of this confusion, this kind of bad naming can be prevented by testing the naming on people. eg give people a bunch of products to find prices for including URLs, where the people dont know which name is being tested. then see how many select the wrong URLs.
there are entire firms who specialise in this kind of thing, namely market research. eg I got asked to test a Pepsi advert video by kantar.com
the hope is that someone in the audience will yell out:
wrong!
eg where you said the 64T drive isnt 64T,
so its like with car driving, many drivers assume the car ahead of them is proficient,
but in fact you have to assume the car in front of you is incompetent,
in particular to keep a healthy distance from the car. you should always drive relative to the road ahead of the next car, and NEVER relative to the next car, instead to keep at a distance from the next car, and to overtake from a distance.
in Nigeria, it is more like 35C! it is summer all year round, either hot and dry, or hot and rainy. also the air is always warm. in England although the summers can be very hot, the air even in the summer usually has a chill. at night we would get a warm breeze, with the sound of crickets. to get an idea, use a hair drier, its like that!
at midday, the sun was vertically above. in the UK although the sun may set at 10pm in the summer, the sun is NEVER vertically above. that only happens in the tropics, ie between the tropics of cancer and capricorn. also the sun would always rise at 6am and always set at 6pm.
I watched a documentary about Nigeria by Michael Palin, but having lived there, and also been to different regions, the one thing the vids cannot depict is the feeling in the air, which is the bigger part of the experience.
my parents worked there for several years, I lived there 1977 to 1979, and I took the maximum and minimum temperature each day in the lounge. the minimum ever was 18C. because so hot, at night you would just sleep with a cover sheet, even 1 blanket would be too hot. if you wore socks also, too hot, instead to wear sandals.
the only reason I didnt do it, was I hadnt thought of the idea!
the one night seeing the A6 mobo code, which means SCSI detect, the next morning I woke up thinking to remove drives, as optical drives and IDE use the SCSI software protocol, I think called ATAPI, not sure if SATA does. then decided to remove the optical one first, as that had the Alibaba SATA 3 extender, and unspecified SATA 3 connector. All other SATA cables are MSI supplied ones. the idea to remove the boot drive to force the UEFI screen I got online.
ATAPI is a protocol used with the Parallel ATA and Serial ATA standards so that a greater variety of devices can be connected to a computer than with the ATA command set alone. It carries SCSI commands and responses through the ATA interface.
the only reason I didnt do it, was I hadnt thought of the idea!
the one night seeing the A6 mobo code, which means SCSI detect, the next morning I woke up thinking to remove drives, as optical drives and IDE use the SCSI software protocol, I think called ATAPI, not sure if SATA does. then decided to remove the optical one first, as that had the Alibaba SATA 3 extender, and unspecified SATA 3 connector. All other SATA cables are MSI supplied ones. the idea to remove the boot drive to force the UEFI screen I got online.
Compared to e.g 550W or 750W unit, the 1.6kW unit is yes, longer. However, when compared to other 1.6kW units, PRIME TX-1600 length is actually average.
For example, 1600W PSU lengths are:
E.g here's how your PSU, PRIME TX-1600 looks inside:
It is already packed tight and the footprint can't be shrunk more, without giving up on quality (or other important aspects).
Note: From above image, the three main bulk caps are removed, for safety purposes (else-ways, reviewer can zap themselves to kingdom come).
These three are removed:
Note: while PSU housing itself is 180mm long, it has power connectors protruding out, so, total length can easily be 200mm (or more). Also, unit itself is 80+ Gold, and not 80+ Titanium as your unit is.
Of course, Lepa G1600 is easy 10 year old platform. So, it is one of the old timers. Also, during it's release, it's availability was low (very hard to get). But it was a good PSU. Except noisy fan. OEM: Enermax.
Now I dabbled with the UEFI graphics settings, and by changing from PEG to IGD, and also Game Mode, the 6600MHz benchmark is now slightly faster than the default memory frequency:
Based on that, now you allocated 4GB of VRAM to iGPU, while before it was only 512MB. So, more VRAM when bandwidth remains same - is better. Hence better bench score.
If you'd remove RAM OC and put it back to 4800 Mhz, while leaving 4GB for VRAM, you may get even better bench score than the latest 1386. Up to you if you want to test it out.
he probably merged Davy's finding with the german words, unless the russians use the german word. the russian words for potato and petrol are the same as german, kartoffel and benzine (not sure of spelling), and the fruit "orange" is almost identical, the german word is apfelsine, russian is same without the f. a lot of russian words are identical to polish, eg oolitsa means street in both languages.
Potassium - from the English word "potash" (pot ashes) and the Arabic word "qali" meaning alkali (the origin of the symbol K comes from the Latin word "kalium").
Cadmium - somewhat confusingly, from the Latin word "cadmia" meaning "calamine" (zinc carbonate, ZnCO3) and from the Greek word "kadmeia" with the same meaning.
I have moved the 2010 PC's 500GB system drive back to the 2010 machine from the 2024 machine. at the time 500GB seemed ginormous, now it seems small! at the time I thought "I wonder whether they'll make affordable 1T SSDs", today they give them away for free in cornflakes boxes!
I tested whether it boots from a USB cable keyboard, and looks like it doesnt. I'll do some further experiments before concluding it is impossible.
I also was about to download the Unigine benchmarker to the 2010 machine, then realised faster to copy the software from the 2024 PC to a flash drive, then connect that to the 2010, then run from there. but it only works on 64 bit, my 2010 Win10 is 32 bit Win10.
I then checked the Unigine website, and it looks like it is 64 bit only, thus I cannot compare it with the 2010 PC or the 2007 PC, as I dont wish to try and install 64 bit Windows 10. That would need a new SSD, and it is kind of throwing good money after bad.
I have collected and already installed the 4T 990 Pro M.2 to M2_3, with a 2T at M2_2, and the 2T with the OSes at M2_4.
Now I rechecked what you said about PCIe 5.0 M.2's, which is this message, where I have figured out how to give URLs for specific messages:
I emailed them 339pm 15th March, they replied at 516pm!
I emailed Noctua at 1217 that day, their reply was 9:41am 21st March, 6 days later! as far as I can tell Phantek never replied, unless it got under the radar.
one of the best ways to evaluate a firm is with the customer support!
on ebay, sometimes when several firms offer similar stuff, I send an enquiry to each of a number of them, to see what happens, do they reply? how soon? useful info?
generally the best firms reply quickly
if an item is a scam, usually the person will answer a different question from the question asked, or just not answer at all, etc.
Aeacus said:
Yes, Seasonic PRIME units are top performers and silent. Even i haven't heard nothing from my two PRIME units.
Compared to e.g 550W or 750W unit, the 1.6kW unit is yes, longer. However, when compared to other 1.6kW units, PRIME TX-1600 length is actually average.
For example, 1600W PSU lengths are:
at some point they have to invent say an EATXXXL format! or allow the PSU to jut out of the tower. main problem is if the tower case becomes too heavy to lift. I carried the current machine to the modem to connect with ethernet cable when installing win11, and in fact that didnt work, and it was a challenge to carry it (and not drop or knock the machine in transit!). they should introduce an olympic event of PC tower case lifting!
Aeacus said:
The fastest read/write speed PCI-E 5.0 x4 drive currently is Crucial T705 (up to 14500 MB/s read and 12700 MB/s write speeds), review: 0, post: 23255793, member: 1773368"]
Note: From above image, the three main bulk caps are removed, for safety purposes (else-ways, reviewer can zap themselves to kingdom come).
These three are removed:
Note: while PSU housing itself is 180mm long, it has power connectors protruding out, so, total length can easily be 200mm (or more). Also, unit itself is 80+ Gold, and not 80+ Titanium as your unit is.
Of course, Lepa G1600 is easy 10 year old platform.
So, it is one of the old timers. Also, during it's release, it's availability was low (very hard to get). But it was a good PSU. Except noisy fan. OEM: Enermax.
Based on that, now you allocated 4GB of VRAM to iGPU, while before it was only 512MB. So, more VRAM when bandwidth remains same - is better. Hence better bench score.
If you'd remove RAM OC and put it back to 4800 Mhz, while leaving 4GB for VRAM, you may get even better bench score than the latest 1386. Up to you if you want to test it out.
some of those names are anachronistic, where they are using a word from an era where they didnt know about the item. eg some of those greek words. but it would require work to determine which are truly anachronistic, eg did the greeks know of argon gas?
academics in europe would use latin, that way people in any country would understand, but this was an anachronistic use of latin, in fact the experts dont even know how ancient latin was pronounced. british people generally pronounce latin incorrectly, as it was an unaspirated language, but english is an aspirated language, net effect is british people pronounce latin aspirated, which is incorrect.
latin seems strange until you pronounce it correctly, at which point you realise the unusual phonetics relates to the way it is meant to be spoken. I taught myself some basics in recent years. I then read up about the pronounciation, and I had to relearn everything, as I had been pronouncing it completely wrongly.
thankfully today english has become the lingua franca! at my uni, latin used to be compulsory, but when I got there it was no longer compulsory, and I had never learnt any.
I think the edison light bulbs are filled with an inert gas, and I have some double glazing which is filled with argon rather than a vacuum.
Unigine Heaven should work on 32-bit as well (at least i don't see 64-bit requirement on specs page);
link: https://benchmark.unigine.com/heaven
Heaven is classic benchmark tool. 1st one i used and i still have it. Though, it's results page isn't as in-depth as Superposition has it, but it does have Presets and Custom Preset option as well.
So, you can use Heaven to compare all PCs you have.
Knowing you , you could be tempted to buy T705 with heatsink, install it, test (benchmark) the drive with included heatsink and look how it fares with the one it comes with.
Then, remove the included heatsink, use MoBo M.2 cover and benchmark the drive again, to see differences between performance and temperature, between two cooling methods.
I have both, CrystalDiskMark and CrystalDiskInfo on my PC as well. E.g while Samsung Magician also has benchmark built in to it, it only benches Samsung drives. Hence why use CrystalDiskMark to bench other, non-Samsung drives (e.g i benched my Crucial MX500 and WD Blue 1TB with it).
For iGPU, better not go above 1080p reso. It isn't powerful enough for other resos. And while it can display 4K, that only for very light tasks (desktop, web browsing, office).
You mean PSU size? If so, no point to make one single PSU that large. Even server PSUs aren't one single unit. Instead, servers usually use hot-swappable flex-ATX PSUs, that can be added when needed.
That won't go too far, since PC cases can become big and heavy. So big, that you can not lift them. Best you could do, is to roll them along the floor.
E.g like Thermaltake Core WP200:
It actually consists of two PC cases. The upper part is W200 and bottom part is P200. So, you can have them individually as well.
Like W200 on wheels:
And P200 as standalone:
I like the Tt Core WP200. Would be fun to have PC on wheels since it's just so big/heavy.
▶ Integrated Graphics
This item allows you to set the UMA memory size manually or allows the system to
allocate the system memory dynamically for integrated graphics.
▶ UMA Frame Buffer Size
Sets the system memory buffer size for onboard integrated graphics.
before the reply, a progress report, or more accurately a fiasco report!
I got some junk mail with a video advert for a financial advisory, I dont buy into these, but the vids can be interesting, and I like to video record them to revisit in the future to see how their predictions compare with what actually happens. so decided I needed to install the video screengrab software. eventually that done, then thought: I need to watch this with the graphics card, time to reinstall it.
anyway on reinstalling it, the machine wouldnt boot. the led would stop at A6, and I disconnected the internal optical drive and the SSD. but not the 3 M.2's. but it still wouldnt boot, with A6 error code, and then I noticed a red led, looked like a low level error message. so pored through the mobo manual, and found on p60 the red led means
CPU not detected or fail. also a yellow led, which is DRAM not detected or fail.
I removed the boot M.2 drive at M2_4, and this time it wouldnt go to the UEFI screen! tried several times, no luck. decided maybe some power cable to the mobo not right. so removed the cover plate of the PSU and began tracing each power cable from socket to PSU, in case maybe one not connected at all. Now I found one power cable to PD_PWR1 (p28) was a 3x2 at PD_PWR1 (I say "a" 3x2 rather than "the", so I am not defining it as a 3x2, but that is a descriptor, not an identifier), but this was a PCIe plug with a 2x1 detached, at the other end a 4x2, but maybe that should be a 3x2 at both ends. checked the PSU's bag of cables, and nothing with 3x2 at each end. so probably is right. it had say SATA cables with 3x2 at one end, and daisy chains of SATA L power sockets at the other end.
I then also removed the graphics card, and it still wouldnt boot. the frozer cover plate seemed to have 4 strange electrical contacts. maybe needs to be in place. so I put it in place, and it has changing colour LEDS on text powered from those contacts. but it still wouldnt boot. looking around I noticed the latches on the memory cards looked wrong. pressed and they gave, beginning to click. then pushed with some force and they clicked further and now were parallel to the mobo.
tried booting, and this time it wasnt getting stuck at A6, and was at numbers such as 46 which isnt an error code. looked promising, I then reinstated the boot M.2 and now it booted to Windows! I shut down the machine again, and reinstated the graphics card and connected the other DP to the monitor. but this time no boot. at some point realised I hadnt connected the other end of the DP to the graphics card!
shut down with the power switch, connected the other end of the DP cable, and this time it booted to Windows 10. I tried the unigine and everything working perfectly.
so it looks like right from day 1, I hadnt pushed the memory cards in fully, I didnt realise they required so much force! this is the latch at the lower end of the cards if the PC tower is placed normally.
it seems that this mobo is designed so that you need to hear a loud click to know when a card is fully inserted.
the upper latches looked correct, I applied force and they didnt latch any further, and the mobo was creaking a bit under the pressure!
so a lot of these problems were probably from the memory cards not latched in fully at the lower latch! but despite not being pushed in sufficiently, the leds gave the mesmerising colour changes! these corsair memory cards have lucid colour changing leds.
ok, I have copied the URL to the flash drive, as I cant access bookmarks on this machine from the other machine! so have to bookmark old school!
I tried saving bookmarks + history + passwords on XP, and found that Internet Explorer is very limited in this respect, MS Edge is far far better. also IE is very limited for importing stuff, whereas with MS Edge you can import everything from other browsers.
the only thing is I dont want to remove the graphics card again, so will have to compare it with the 2024 PC with 4060.
Heaven is classic benchmark tool. 1st one i used and i still have it. Though, it's results page isn't as in-depth as Superposition has it, but it does have Presets and Custom Preset option as well.
So, you can use Heaven to compare all PCs you have.
ok, that's great! I wont buy it just yet. experience tells me prices will come down, once even faster technology becomes available. in fact I am waiting for 8T, and am prepared to pay a premium for one 8T drive of PCIe 5.0 4 lanes or future 8 lanes.
what these firms do is they stagger the progress in steps, where with each step, they start with a premium price, then when that market dries up, they drop the price some more, and some more, at some point introducing even higher technology,
eg say they already have 32T drives in place, which cost $100 to manufacture. they'll not even release the 8T, but maybe in 10 months, will release the 8T for $2000. then in 2 years time they release the 16T for $2000 and the 8T is then $600. its a kind of conveyor belt of technology and money, where there's a guy placing stuff right now on the conveyor belt which will reach us in 10 years time!
they are a bit like a comedian who knows 100 really good jokes, but he will only tell you 3 this week. then next week another 3, etc. where he strings it out forever.
with the 68020, I remember reading in the 1990s, that you could buy these for something like $5 or $20 but only if you bought some huge amount of them eg 1000 or 100! you cant just buy 5.
ie this pricing is meant for manufacturers not for end users.
really I dont need more than 8T, and in fact 2T is plenty, but the 4T and 8T are there for technical reasons, the 8T is to say backup 4T's, and the 4T is to backup 2T's. a 2T would be split into at least 4 x 500GB, but eg the current 4T is undivided as one ginormous partition. But that is eg so I can decompress a sector backup of a 2T to a 2T file.
the largest drive will be undivided as a huge workspace.
I have been using my current 500GB data drive for many years, and in fact it was a migration of even earlier smaller data drives, going back to maybe 2007, ie could be 17 years and I still havent used up 500GB!
that 500GB drive still has more than 80GB free space!
but the big drives are more for doing sector backups of entire drives. that way if the windows install malfunctions, I can re-establish the entire drive. thus its for metalevel uses.
its a bit like having a huge cupboard filled with folded cardboard boxes. where there is no actual stuff in the cupboard, just folded boxes for storing stuff elsewhere.
the kind of thing I need huge storage for is eg I bought into the upsell and the upsell of the upsell of the free software which came with the external Pioneer QL optical writer drive. they give you a suite of software with a license key on a sticker on the manual.
Now that software download is several gigabytes. I also bought today's version of Roxio by Corel, and bought into the upsell, which was one huge download after another. In fact I have shunted the Pioneer software by Cyberlink and the Roxio software to a bluray, and it was more than 12Gig! when I say upsell, I mean the american idea where when you buy something and go to pay, they then try to sell you further stuff. when you go to pay for that, they then sell you even further stuff etc.
if you arent careful you can end up with 10 browser tabs open of successive upsells, where by the time you pay for the last one you have forgotten the first one and you have run out of storage!
From that amazon page, you can define capacity and either with or without heatsink.
Knowing you , you could be tempted to buy T705 with heatsink, install it, test (benchmark) the drive with included heatsink and look how it fares with the one it comes with.
Then, remove the included heatsink, use MoBo M.2 cover and benchmark the drive again, to see differences between performance and temperature, between two cooling methods.
I have Samsung Magician, I think from when I bought the 250GB predecessor of the 500GB drive! but I couldnt remember what magician was for, the title is unforgettable!
it only benches Samsung drives. Hence why use CrystalDiskMark to bench other, non-Samsung drives (e.g i benched my Crucial MX500 and WD Blue 1TB with it).
For iGPU, better not go above 1080p reso. It isn't powerful enough for other resos. And while it can display 4K, that only for very light tasks (desktop, web browsing, office).
the 4K and 8K without graphics card are unwatchable, blurry and migraine inducing. I dont mind a low fps, as long as each frame is of quality. but as a general rule if the system cannot produce enough fps, its better to reduce the framesize, because it is ultimately about pixels per second rather than frames per second, reduce the frame size and you get a higher fps. or possibly reduce the resolution.
now rewatching with the graphics card, the 8K I now appreciate the quality.
this is a danger of the modern era, that the starting technology is so advanced, that people dont realise how good it is.
and it is where it does pay to start with lower specification stuff, then gradually increase the specification. eg where I began without installing the graphics card. I now comprehend how good the 4060 is.
then if I eventually tried a 4090, I'd presumably now comprehend how good that is. but I dont have any plans currently to go beyond the 4060.
You mean PSU size? If so, no point to make one single PSU that large. Even server PSUs aren't one single unit. Instead, servers usually use hot-swappable flex-ATX PSUs, that can be added when needed.
E.g like so (rack server with 4x PSU slots):
That won't go too far, since PC cases can become big and heavy. So big, that you can not lift them. Best you could do, is to roll them along the floor.
E.g like Thermaltake Core WP200:
once you get to these industrial grade things, I think maintenance becomes a full time work! and the main money is made from the maintenance and service contracts rather than for the goods.
the more parts, the sooner some part malfunctions. in the early days the computers were made with valves rather than transistors. they reached some valve count, where every few minutes another valve would blow. where they couldnt use any more valves. transistors were developed to increase the count.
you could of course create your own custom rack, I dont know if wood is safe for a tower system, but otherwise if you know metalwork, or maybe merge some normal towers.
because a tower is mainly a framework for spatially arranging the components. its a kind of metal carpentry! its a metal cupboard for interconnected PC components!
one other thing before I forget, for the Noctua fans, the UEFI has 2 options PWM or DC, what is that about?
I think you did say which to use ages ago, but I havent yet tried to locate the comments. I had it set to what you advised, but when I cleared the CMOS those choices vanished, where I dont remember what it was, nor why it was what it was.
looking around I noticed the latches on the memory cards looked wrong. pressed and they gave, beginning to click. then pushed with some force and they clicked further and now were parallel to the mobo.
I just thought it is either installed or it isnt, that there is no middle ground!
what caught my eye was the red led, I thought maybe that is an error signal,
and it is CPU not detected or fail.
and then the yellow led meaning DRAM not detected or fail.
I think these 2 had probably been there in recent weeks, but I just thought they were part of the eye candy!
its only when the machine wouldnt boot at all ever, that I began to search more desperately for clues.
now I wasnt sure what DRAM is, but it must be some form of memory, and could be the corsairs, and the CPU not detected or fail didnt make sense as the machine has been functioning for weeks, and I didnt handle the CPU, so it shouldnt fail now on a brand new machine, maybe on a 10 year old machine.
I focussed on the CPU problem, that maybe the power connectors not inserted properly. but they were, and all the power connectors on the board looked fully inserted. but I couldnt see what was happening at the PSU, as a jungle of cables and the PSU cover plate eclipsing the view. so then to remove the cover plate.
I couldnt discern any problem, the only doubt was the 4x2 cable to the 3x2, but I couldnt see what else it could be. its like with multiple choice exams, sometimes you know the answer is say B because you know for sure A, D, E, F are not the answer!
so I then began scouring the mobo, and the yellow led meaning DRAM, I scoured the memory modules, and then noticed the clip looked at a dubious angle.
I just applied the force that I was used to with miscellaneous products over the years.
also checking just now, the mobo manual's lousy diagrams on p8 are completely wrong, and there is no mention of clicking. they do have a Youtube vid, but that is also hopeless, its not this mobo, and the latches are different, and there is no talk, and there is music drowning out any potential click. its so unprofessional:
I think probably I just verified the upper latches looked right, and didnt realise it needed clicking at both sides. with the graphics card PCIe, it just clicks on one side, its unusual to have double sided latches.
they ought to design it so that some circuit completes through the latch, that way the electronics can detect if its not shut properly, with my car I get an error message if any door isnt shut properly, or if the seatbelts arent on, or if I drive with the handbrake on: the handbrake is just a sham where it doesnt apply the force, where you can drive with the handbrake on.
Heaven is classic benchmark tool. 1st one i used and i still have it. Though, it's results page isn't as in-depth as Superposition has it, but it does have Presets and Custom Preset option as well.
So, you can use Heaven to compare all PCs you have.
I realised today there is potentially a trick way to benchmark the mobo without graphics card without removing the card, which is to remove the power cable but leave the card in place.
now some hardware works without its power cable, where the power cable is just a booster.
eg I had this USB drive, which began getting errors. I did a salvage to another drive and then stopped using it. now one day tidying up the clutter of hardware, I got to the drive, and examining it, I noticed a power socket, OMG I didnt realise it had a power socket, could be why it malfunctioned. So I rummaged around in all the clutter and found the transformer, I always label every transformer with a sticker, and the same label at whatever it is for, because in the old days I didnt and ended up with a load of transformers where no idea what they were for. also sometimes you have several of a hardware item, where each has the same transformer, but they might be different revisions. anyway, the transformer had the correct label.
I think at some point the power plug had become detached unintentionally, and I didnt realise it was detached, and now the drive was working but giving some read errors. with the transformer reapplied, it now worked perfectly!
potentially the graphics card might work without power, but might malfunction if the power demand becomes too high.
at one point when I opened this 2024 PC, I found the tower case HDD led wire and another had become detached, although those ones I think dont matter. possibly they became detached at the time I opened up the machine. they are flimsy connections, where they will detach without any effort. I definitely connected them up properly at installation time, as I remember collating the tower manual with the mobo manual, as this version of the Phantek tower doesnt have a power LED which was a confusion factor, I think it uses RGB lighting instead which isnt supplied!
Knowing you , you could be tempted to buy T705 with heatsink, install it, test (benchmark) the drive with included heatsink and look how it fares with the one it comes with.
Then, remove the included heatsink, use MoBo M.2 cover and benchmark the drive again, to see differences between performance and temperature, between two cooling methods.
if I did test, I would test very selectively. and eg test a genuine process, eg time how long to do a sector backup from Linux. also say to test the smallest capacity one, to contain costs. if something is unsatisfactory, then I would do more testing. the principle is to orientate relative to reality.
I listen to advice, and I use logic, but even with logic, reality often is different. I once hand optimised in assembly language part of a program to make it faster, and on testing it was significantly slower.
basically Intel and AMD design the CPU around popular inefficient ways of programming, so if you program thus it can be faster than if you try to program efficiently!
wisdom comes from when reality is different from what the advice and logic says, because there is some phenomenon you overlooked, where you have to try and determine what this is, and this is the new wisdom.
with disk drives, the caching MO makes a lot of difference. because the time to write 1 byte is the same as writing 512 bytes, and may well be the same as writing 16 x 512 etc, so if you have aligned caches of say 16 x 512 or whatever the hardware works with, the drive will become vastly faster.
as an individual to test a lot of hardware, you need to narrow down the category of hardware, because otherwise the costs go through the roof. best to just start with the item you have, test that extensively to see where it is problematic. then to enquire about products that dont have that problem, and buy just one, and then test that extensively, comparing with the first item.
whenever I do backups on Linux, I always time them via the shell commands, and I save the shell output for future reference. eg when I did a compressed back up of the M.2 drive with the OSes on to the other M.2, this is the info:
date ; sudo dd if=/dev/nvme1n1 | gzip -c >> /media/mint/Backups/2024_04_20_0303_win10_11_sectors_2T.gz ; date
Sat Apr 20 02:10:20 UTC 2024
3907029168+0 records in
3907029168+0 records out
2000398934016 bytes (2.0 TB, 1.8 TiB) copied, 9219.43 s, 217 MB/s
Sat Apr 20 04:44:00 UTC 2024
it took 2 hrs 34 minutes, and was 217 MB/s.
what I noticed with the M.2 drive, is compressed backups are much faster than uncompressed ones. the main snag with compressed ones, is I am not sure you can decompress directly to disk sectors, you may need to decompress to a file, and then copy the file to the disk sectors, which means you need a huge partition bigger than the target disk. could depend on the version of Linux and the version of the Linux software. so eg if the target disk is 2T, you need a partition which is bigger than 2T.
anyway, for testing, there is major reward just to test 1 item, and a lot of reward to then test a 2nd item.
even if you were to test 10 items, you still have to begin testing 1 of those 10!
DRAM warning led indicates a RAM problem. Sometimes it cannot explain what the problem is so you have to investigate.
The CPU earning led indicates either a CPU or RAM problem.
Error codes are more accurate, however they only trigger if the error is properly detected. Sometimes the motherboard doesn't "know" there is a problem.
There are temperature sensors built into the motherboard. At least 5 of them.
PWM is the superior choice as long as you have PWN fans, and i'm fairly certain you do. Are the Noctuas system/case fans? If yes, select PWM.
This will allow you to modify the temperature curve and use it to control fan RPM
This is what it looks like on my computer:
The curve is not a recommendation. Just an illustration.
I tweaked the Silent profile to force fans to spin just a touch slow at low temperatures. For some reason when they spin ~5-10rpm faster, they find some kind of harmony, a resonance that is not very audible but is kinda annoying. It doesn't matter how soft the sound, i always know it's there. Unfortunately that is what the Silent profile causes because of the fans, the case, the location in my room, etc.
So i edited the profile to avoid that one particular RPM-zone. It's one of the things you can do with fan profiles.
You can also see temp sensor reports and locations on the pic.
@35below0 , let's make it simple: Go to the 1st page of this topic, initial post and actually look what fans OP did bought. Do not guess and do not give out false info based on your guess. Confirm the hardware and then give advice.
I need to watch this with the graphics card, time to reinstall it.
anyway on reinstalling it, the machine wouldnt boot.
looking around I noticed the latches on the memory cards looked wrong. pressed and they gave, beginning to click. then pushed with some force and they clicked further and now were parallel to the mobo.
It is a possibility that when you were installing GPU back in the system, without realizing yourself, you pressed against bottom latches of RAM, thus making the RAM pop out from the slots at one end. There is no audible click when you press the latches down to remove the RAM. And after that happened, system didn't work anymore, while it used to work fine before.
Though, while i did talk about installing RAM in my breadboard guide, i failed to let you know that you'll be hearing audible click once the RAM is fully seated.
Also, for future reference, here's a guide on how to install DDR5 RAM, in the very same MoBo you have:
Unless you use software often, it is easy to forgot what they did, since names usually doesn't tell the purpose of the software.
With Samsung Magician, hint would be that it is something to do with Samsung hardware. And within your PC, only Samsung hardware you can have inside your PC, are SSDs. So, you could figure out it is for SSDs.
For screen video recording, i'm using OBS Studio. I've tried others in the past, but most others have either limited amount of record time at once, have issues with file formats, or are generally complex to use.
Once you've seen the uplift from iGPU (Radeon Graphics) to dGPU (RTX 4060), you will not see the same uplift from RTX 4060 to RTX 4090. Benchmark does give better score and more FPS, but for your eyes, the quality/smoothness would be same. So, RTX 4090 is only needed when you actually need far more GPU compute power than what RTX 4060 is able to deliver. And since you don't game, only avenue would be 3D render/workstation use. But for that purpose, i'd suggest looking towards workstation GPUs, namely Quadro/Radeon Pro.
you could of course create your own custom rack, I dont know if wood is safe for a tower system, but otherwise if you know metalwork, or maybe merge some normal towers.
Many people have made their own custom PC cases. Even wooden ones. But for server, better to buy the empty rack in the size you need and then start filling it out as you see fit. Making your own rack has potential not to line up with U2/U6 server racks. And you can also underestimate the weight of server racks, making entire thing crumble down.
As for wood as a PC case, well, it is nice to look at but has fire hazard. Also weighs more than thin piece of metal, that most PC cases are made of.
E.g build log of custom wooden PC case and assembly:
Depends. Keep in mind that for whatever value you set it, you'll loose same amount of RAM as well, since iGPU VRAM is using up your system RAM.
E.g your total RAM amount is 96 GB. If you allocate 4 GB to iGPU, total system RAM would remain at 92 GB. 4 GB for iGPU is good when you only have iGPU to work with. But with dGPU in the system, which does the heavy lifting, then 2 GB would be ample for iGPU. Or you can put it to default 512 MB as well.
iGPU frame buffer size shouldn't exceed the VRAM allocated for it.
If you have it "Auto", MoBo should be able to tell that you have 3-pin fans and adjust accordingly. But you can put it into "DC" to be sure. Since when it is in "Auto" and MoBo thinks you have 4-pin fans, MoBo will put 3-pin fans spinning at full tilt. So, better to have it in "DC" mode.
I realised today there is potentially a trick way to benchmark the mobo without graphics card without removing the card, which is to remove the power cable but leave the card in place.
potentially the graphics card might work without power, but might malfunction if the power demand becomes too high.
If you remove the PCI-E 8-pin power cable from GPU, GPU will not be completely without power. GPU can also get up to 75W worth of power from PCI-E x16 slot. So, your GPU might still work, albeit at not full capacity.
@35below0 , let's make it simple: Go to the 1st page of this topic, initial post and actually look what fans OP did bought. Do not guess and do not give out false info based on your guess. Confirm the hardware and then give advice.
Yes you're right, i assumed that the option wouldn't even be there if PWM wasn't available.
Now the discussion about these Noctuas is coming back to me.
first a progress report that today I decided to do the 2nd install of Windows 11 to the same drive, and with that I found I can get to the Ubuntu loader when it gives the options of which Windows install to load. if you select the right successive options you get to the Ubuntu loader. I took a photo of every step of the install for future reference, and this became a bit burdensome as lots of opt outs of different facilities. then did the mobo drivers install, and as usual the final stage of software installs all failed!
@35below0 , let's make it simple: Go to the 1st page of this topic, initial post and actually look what fans OP did bought. Do not guess and do not give out false info based on your guess. Confirm the hardware and then give advice.
It is a possibility that when you were installing GPU back in the system, without realizing yourself, you pressed against bottom latches of RAM, thus making the RAM pop out from the slots at one end. There is no audible click when you press the latches down to remove the RAM. And after that happened, system didn't work anymore, while it used to work fine before.
I checked just now with a torch, and it is very near the latches. also with the Be Quiet! in the way I have to guess a bit to place the graphics card, its a case of guess and hope. maybe each of the 2 successive installations of the 4060 worsened it further!
I once bought this printer a canon colour laser LBP 5050, ginormous, and very fast but dubious colours. as it was good in some ways, bad in other, it was 50-50, like the model number! 50% good, 50% bad. I think the RTX 4060 is like that 40% bad, 60% good! on the bad side tricky to install, encumbering, on the good side fast and quiet.
Though, while i did talk about installing RAM in my breadboard guide, i failed to let you know that you'll be hearing audible click once the RAM is fully seated.
now I am aware of the problem, I will do a visual verify whenever any change is made to the mobo. I also do a visual of the HDD led wire, as that one detaches too readily.
the cooler in the video is geometrically very good for this mobo, as you can access the 4060 PCIe latch much better. Do you know what that cooler is?
his video camera produces a higher quality image than my SLR Canon! its a challenge to get that kind of quality with this SLR.
where he got those DDR5's for free, I think what has happened is the shop is struggling to sell those, and what the more savvy shops do is they wont hold any goods for more than a year, maybe even a lot less than a year. Probably they will first heavily discount them, then if they still dont sell, give them away with other items. if they cant even give them away, they junk them after a year.
this kind of thing I have learnt from selling on ebay. Maybe everyone is buying some other brand of DDR5, or because of the higher cost, fewer DDR5 only mobos and DDR5 memory cards are selling. and then the capacity. I didnt catch what capacity those freebie ones were. with time the higher capacity ones will become cheaper, and noone will buy the lower capacity ones! eg I wouldnt buy a 500GB SSD today, but a few years ago I'd buy a 250G by default and only bought 500GB ones for technical reasons.
With Samsung Magician, hint would be that it is something to do with Samsung hardware. And within your PC, only Samsung hardware you can have inside your PC, are SSDs. So, you could figure out it is for SSDs.
For screen video recording, i'm using OBS Studio. I've tried others in the past, but most others have either limited amount of record time at once, have issues with file formats, or are generally complex to use.
I needed screengrabbing software in a hurry many months ago and so didnt research it extensively and got NCH Debut Video Capture. with the 2023 laptop it is reasonable. You can set how long to record at once, eg it can do 10 hours: http://www.directemails.info/tom/graphics_card/debut_record.png
where although it says h:mm:ss, that 10:00:00 in the screenshot is the default value when I installed it.
it is a bit complicated, you have to experiment a bit and study the options, eg its a bit tricky to get it to record sound properly. if you get the settings wrong, the video will have no sound!
with the 2010 PC, the video screengrabbing isnt smooth, but with the 2023 laptop it is good. one advantage of that laptop is because it is touchscreen, you can expand the video rectangle to fill the screen. which I cant do with this 2024 desktop. this is where some video adverts only fill a subset of the screen, eg could be 1/2 width and 1/2 height.
NCH are good up to a point, they often have interesting features, but can also have some limits. I think you can try that one for free for probably some weeks, then you have to pay to continue using it.
if you reinstall their software, they will usually say an update is available, but if you update, it will say your license code is only for an earlier version! so with their software, I generally reject the upgrade options.
what I do with it, is I record say 10 seconds first, then halt the recording. then replay to check if it is recording properly. then reload the webpage and record properly. usually I set it to 2hrs max, as most vids which dont say how long, are less than 2 hours.
and what I'd do is record with the laptop, whilst using the 2010 PC meanwhile.
Once you've seen the uplift from iGPU (Radeon Graphics) to dGPU (RTX 4060), you will not see the same uplift from RTX 4060 to RTX 4090. Benchmark does give better score and more FPS, but for your eyes, the quality/smoothness would be same. So, RTX 4090 is only needed when you actually need far more GPU compute power than what RTX 4060 is able to deliver. And since you don't game, only avenue would be 3D render/workstation use. But for that purpose, i'd suggest looking towards workstation GPUs, namely Quadro/Radeon Pro.
once you reach 60 fps, there isnt much point in more fps! with disk drives also they are reaching a size where there is no point making them even bigger. because if something goes wrong with the disk, even 1T is a bit too much to lose.
with my Amiga 500 and Amiga 1200, the computers didnt have the power that one needed, and this in fact was good, because it forced people to innovate different tricks. but today the computers are much more power than is needed, and people become lazy as they can do everything by brute force.
with my Amiga 1200 because hard disks were noisy, I would only use external ones, and would work with double density floppy disks, as those are silent when not being accessed. and only when enough work accumulated to migrate the work to and from an external hard drive. I bought a special drive which could read both Amiga and MSDOS formatted floppies, and double density also for both kinds. They also fixed the continual clicking sound if the drive was empty.
Many people have made their own custom PC cases. Even wooden ones. But for server, better to buy the empty rack in the size you need and then start filling it out as you see fit. Making your own rack has potential not to line up with U2/U6 server racks. And you can also underestimate the weight of server racks, making entire thing crumble down.
As for wood as a PC case, well, it is nice to look at but has fire hazard. Also weighs more than thin piece of metal, that most PC cases are made of.
E.g build log of custom wooden PC case and assembly:
I watched some of that, the guy is adept with woodwork. You need to be trained to do that kind of stuff.
in England, those kinds of skills are taught father to son, they dont teach them at school. To learn at college you'd have to specialise in such things, which is a risky decision. for older people you can enrol at colleges, but these can be far away and expensive, and you have to arrange accomodation etc.
Depends. Keep in mind that for whatever value you set it, you'll loose same amount of RAM as well, since iGPU VRAM is using up your system RAM.
E.g your total RAM amount is 96 GB. If you allocate 4 GB to iGPU, total system RAM would remain at 92 GB. 4 GB for iGPU is good when you only have iGPU to work with. But with dGPU in the system, which does the heavy lifting, then 2 GB would be ample for iGPU. Or you can put it to default 512 MB as well.
iGPU frame buffer size shouldn't exceed the VRAM allocated for it.
most of that 96GB will be unused! I just got the 96GB to mean I never have to upgrade it.
which is a philosophy of research, buy, install, use. generally never install again (except eg drives).
thus I could designate 90GB if necessary, what is the largest amount that would make sense?
a bluray is some 25GB, thus I could fit 3 blurays, just 1 bluray of HD vids is more than you could watch in one day!
To put it short:
PWM is control method for 4-pin fans
DC is control method for 3-pin fans (actually for 4-pin and 2-pin fans as well)
If you remove the PCI-E 8-pin power cable from GPU, GPU will not be completely without power. GPU can also get up to 75W worth of power from PCI-E x16 slot. So, your GPU might still work, albeit at not full capacity.
this is what I feared. I had a similar problem with the USB3 card for the 2010 PC, which I think didnt have any instructions, and where it worked unless I used the graphics card so eventually I uninstalled it. then more recently I reinstalled it, as the mobo USB2 was malfunctioning after some hours of continual use, ok if I rebooted the machine, and then noticed the power socket. that is why it didnt always work: I hadnt connected the power!
I didnt expect a PC component to need a power supply!
these things are problems of psychology, that they are very technical and confusing, so if you havent been told, you can guess a lot and guess wrongly. once you have learnt the hard way, then you never forget.
The curve is not a recommendation. Just an illustration.I tweaked the Silent profile to force fans to spin just a touch slow at low temperatures. For some reason when they spin ~5-10rpm faster, they find some kind of harmony, a resonance that is not very audible but is kinda annoying. It doesn't matter how soft the sound, i always know it's there. Unfortunately that is what the Silent profile causes because of the fans, the case, the location in my room, etc.
So i edited the profile to avoid that one particular RPM-zone. It's one of the things you can do with fan profiles.
that graph is a lot of data points! much more than the ACE. what hardware is it supplying that graph?
but what I have done needs just 4 data points:
0 voltage up to 65C, then next data point max voltage at 75C and beyond.
or should I say 65above0!
that way most of the time total silence, and only sometimes the fans power up for not much time.
have you tried that to just put the voltage to 0 at the low temperatures?
with the Noctuas, they make unacceptable sounds at lower voltages, but at 0 voltage silence!
as regards powering up the PC more often, it could be the heat keeps the machine dry and also prevents mould. mould likes dampness, and will gradually eat all the coverings of cables. thus if you regularly use a PC, that slows down the decomposition of the plastic.
things like capacitors might have thinner plastic inside, if that gets mouldy eventually the capacitor could malfunction.
the hotter temperatures in the PC kind of pasteurises the plastic coverings!
It is nearly identical to the "Silent" profile that comes with the software as a present. There's also Normal and Full speed. Full speed is pointless for daily use. Normal maintains the same temperatures but is a little bit more noisy. Or i should say audible. Silent is nearly silent except for that slight resonance that annoys me.
I edited the Silent profile and saved is as a custom profile. I just moved one or two points on the graph. It was enough to remove the offending sound.
The hardware is the motherboard's temp. sensors (or GPU in case of GPU fans/cooling). The software is the motherboard bundled software that handles aRGB, fans, overclocking, and keeps system drivers up to date.
I wouldn't neccessarily want temps to go up to 65C. But i didn't make a bespoke profile, i just edited slightly the profile i was already happy with.
The reason that annoying sound exists probably has to do with the combination of case fans, case, room size, location of PC in the room, and maybe the alignment of Jupiter as well.
A tiny drop in rpm is enough to shake it.
With the profile i showed, i get total silence nearly 100% of the time. Rarely do the case fans spin fast enough to notice, and never enough to be noisy.
If i'm playing a game, the 4060's fans will drown out any case/CPU fan noise anyway.
If you're happy with your profile, that's all there is. You have fans that move a lot of air, more than mine could. For my fans (2x140mm Fractal Aspect intakes, 1x120mm Noctua NF-S12B Redux-1200 exhaust, Noctua NH-D15 2x140mm CPU/top exhaust), spinning them silently at low RPM keeps the case ventilated and temps around 28-37C when not under load.
I'm not interested in trying that.
The PC is quiet enough that i cannot tell it's on during the day. And the temperatures are fine. I have no reason to stop fans entirely, other than curiosity.
Have you actually looked if you can define any amount, or does UEFi give you some options (e.g 6-8) in different sizes?
Since usually, there are predefined options and one just can't allocate all available RAM to iGPU.
As i said, 2 GB is plenty for iGPU. Your dGPU (RTX 4060) has 8 GB of dedicated VRAM, separate from the rest of the system.
there is often an ongoing quiet rattling sound, I cannot see where its from, but when all the Noctuas are at 0 RPM, its still there, so could be from the Be Quiet! which perhaps isnt Being Quiet!
Can be fan bearing. Sometimes, some fans, at low RPM, produce bearing rattle. Increasing the fan RPM removes the bearing rattle. So, try increasing CPU fan RPM to see if the rattle goes away.
looks like it might be that, as it only happens when they are slower, its a kind of wavering sound,
I'll try to speed up the slowest speed later, right now writing this, its rattling away as the PC case is right behind the monitor, as I have improvised a small work table.
My only guess, when the fan doesn't spin, you've set MoBo to still feed some voltage to the fans, whereby motor tries to spin but due to the lack of enough voltage, it only clicks.
I have now reconnected all 7 fans to the mobo, and put the voltage as 0 up to 65°C, then rapid transition to 12V at 75°C, and the clicking halted as soon as I reached the worst fan at the back. so have fixed that problem!
, this reminds me that, 
Confirm the hardware and then give advice.
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram