Phenom 2 920 and 940 Benchmarks

[radnor]

OTOH, I saw 2 reports on Motley Fool's - one stating you'd have to be an idiot to buy AMD stock right now and the other saying it's a golden opportunity . AMD's stock price did jump up by almost a whole quarter (as in 2 dimes and 4 pennies) today so I'm guessing the portfolio managers looked at the 2nd report.

Well, if you buy loads of stock for 1$ per share, and it goes up to 1.5 per share, you still have a 50% profit.
In this game Risk = Possibility of Profit. AMD shares seems much more safe than many banking instituitions.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

[/quote]

Incorrect.

Intel has more free cash in its coffers than AMD has in total. If Intel is surprised by a fluctuation in the semiconductor market, it can survive. Can AMD say the same? If CPU prices crashed today, who do you think would be hurting more? Intel or AMD?

The simple fact is that you think that anything that affects AMD is magnified for Intel, since it's a larger company, but that is not true.

"OK, so you think this is simply a AMD vs Intel battle here? That if AMD goes down, Intel wins? Thats not even where Im going with this, and having money is good, but again, its not bulletproof"

intel stock is undervalued but so are many stocks - they need to pay real dividend and stop pretending they are still a growth company - they are a value company

I agree with dragon here. Intel in the cpu market is not a growing company, but a value company.

Yes, having more money is better, but also Intel has more mouths to feed. Has more houses to keep up etc.

 

[caamsa]

i got tired of printing" i7 is good" and " i7 is worth it" on almost every thread to respond to people,while well informed, have based there opinion on what others have said and have not actually tested an i7 system.

so i changed my avitar saying! lol!

everyone should have a i7 920 overclocked to 4ghz - ok 3.8ghz to 4.2hz

i7 reviews remind me of vista, yes vista was a big pain prior to service pack 1 but for the average user in my case - gamer - vista is great os

i got tired printing that too: defragging, ghosting, GUE, Dx10, ie7, media player 11 are all a great system for the average user much improved over MP10 or MP9 or IE6

then there are a few short comiings: big one is if your not running 2.8-3.4ghz or better system with over 2GB of ram and decent video card

Let me just make a nice boring point that no one here will probably like and this is regarding Intell and AMD. The truth is that it is all relative. People buy/build systems that work for them.

"everyone should have a i7 920 overclocked to 4ghz - ok 3.8ghz to 4.2hz"

That statement is a nice thought but then I would ask why? Honda probably makes the best car in the world so then every one should drive a Honda? Samsung makes the best TV's so then we should all have Samsung TV's? There are a lot of things to consider when making a purchase and it is not always what is the best or has the best rating or does best in crash tests, benchmarks etc.

Most people don't need all that power. I am not knocking the i7 just saying that a lot of people want to upgrade for the sake of doing it not out of true necessity. Will I buy a new i7 system when I upgrade probably the end of this year? Maybe..........I will certainly look at the new Phenom II and take the price of an upgrade into consideration. I personally don't believe it is necessary to spend more than maybe $600.00 on a computer. I can afford a high end computer I just don't have the need for one or see the value in one.
If I am going to blow thousands of dollars I will do it on some thing worthwhile to me like making improvements to my house etc. Things that will actually add value. But that is just me and just my personal opinion. So do what works for you and stop all bickering. 😀

I hope that AMD can pick up the pace or it will be a long winter of reading about the "Intell System Builder Marathons" on Toms every month and Intell fans fighting over what is better the core2 the coreQ or the i7. Let the Intell CPU wars begin........... 😴

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Many may not have noticed, AMD has already put the first beloved patriot in Intels armor.With AMD's marketing plot, I see quite a few fence sitters, unbiased enthusiast, and yes even hardcore Intel users refraining from pulling the trigger on a new Intel build,waiting to see how the PHII performs.
With an unsertain economic forcast, most people are a lot more fruggle with the extra expenditures, wanting to get the most value for their money (be it Intel or AMD).
Is Intel going to make a profit? Most sertainly. Are stockholders going to like? I don't think so. And if stockholders don't see their money making money ie... growth, they usually move to a growth company.
Facts are facts, but speculation is what drives the Market.

What I see are people worried about keeping their jobs and hence they are setting aside money and deferring all "luxury" expenditures until they have more assurance of a viable income. Let's face it - even if half of us held our noses and bought from the other half's fave company, it wouldn't make a whit of difference to either Intel or AMD - the Tom's and other enthusiasts market is insignificant compared to the Walmarts and Dell customers.

If Westmere is a drop-in replacement for i7 on X58, I know of at least 2 Intel fantards who will be building systems next month

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

TY, and I agree. Lets see what happens. Theres lots of Intel fans waiting for P2, just because its different, and if it performs, and pricing etc, theyll be buying it. Thing is, if it does all this, itll be a very welcome alternative

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Well, if you buy loads of stock for 1$ per share, and it goes up to 1.5 per share, you still have a 50% profit.
In this game Risk = Possibility of Profit. AMD shares seems much more safe than many banking instituitions.

That is quite true and one reason why I'll probably gamble some $$ on AMD stock in the near future. It's just the dang timing thing that's killing me.

My thinking is that the Q4 earnings report is going to be quite ugly. So the stock is likely to tank the 23rd. On the second hand, somebody might be tempted to make a buyout offer and the stock will skyrocket. On the third hand, maybe Abu Dhabi will pull the plug entirely on their investment. On the fourth hand, I'm about out of hands and maybe I'll just sit on all of them.

One thing I do know - it's bad to buy high and sell low . So maybe both buy and put options would be good .

 

[baldinie]

does anyone else think there may be a 3 way deal goin on. AMD sponder the ferrari F1 team, so do abu dhabi, then abu dhabi back AMD....

anyway, think we all agree, if u dont need an i7 you wont buy one, its always been the smart way to build to your needs, since its so easy to build a PC yourself these days, you can tailor it to you're exact needs.

 

[unclefester]

Most people do buy at Wally-World and Dell. It's alot like the sixties and NASCAR. First on race-day brought ppl to the showroom. they didin't by a race car , but it got them into the showroom which pushed sales. Sure they bought a lesser model, but it did mean more sales.

 

[hathost82]

If that pricing ever came to exist, what some people dont realize is, this would harm Intel very very badly. Everyone currently knows that AMD is having a tough tough time, and Intel so far has been able to show some strength, even in this current market...BUT, if this were to occur, and those prices began to come out, Intel wouldnt look too good. Remember, its what are you doing for me NOW attitude when it comes to stock holders, and thats the problem with the system now, stockholders wont hold for this. So, price wars dont really help Intel, even in their current position. This will, unlike some people think, put alot of strain on Intel, as its them that has alllll those fabs to keep busy

Those are prices for intels current lineup as of 1-02-2009 as listed on newegg.com
Amd is expected to sell Phenom2's with a top end price or $340

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Things were moving too fast here earlier, and I was clarifying what Id said earlier, I know these are the projected prices, I was refering to when someone said the 9650 for like 200$. I agree with you, and is why I quoted you, adding my comments

 

[hathost82]

Yeah I just came back to this thread I was arguing with someone on another thread saying that the q6600 destroys the Ph2.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Tomorrow we will have the clock for clock benches, and then we may get a better overall idea of things, and all this crap can stop, and people can either look forwards to it, decide not to buy it, or deny its abilities

 

[hathost82]

Oh I did have the Q6600 price wrong on my post earlier it should ahve been $189.99 I fixed that.

 

[turpit]

Look, I know these times are hard. I worked for a company where the owner allowed the tenured employees a chance to actually vote to either keep your 40Hr work week, and lay off the non tenured people, or, go 32 Hrs and keep them, we all voted to keep them. This is and was a fine company, doing quite well, and kudos to its owner as well.

My points are this. If you stop and let these things effect you too much, then youre certainly a victim of it, whether you have to be or not. On a business level, the same applies, except the exceptions of where you can make certain strides in certain things where previously they didnt exist. I dont particularly quote the Inq, but their 08 assessment hit it square for me. The men behind the curtain pull all the levers, and we all have to jump somewhat, but its also some of these that make their opportunities, and lil things like Intel and AMD could play a part, so, in essence, no one really knows how this will play out, as Im sure those who are pulling the levers know that there needs to be competiton in such an important market, and Im also sure there will be

Really, so if you take a pay cut, and stop buying discretionary because all you can afford are neccesities, you are a victim? Or you lose your job and cant afford even the necessities, you are a victim?

Tell that to my cousin who just got laid off in detroit. Tell that to to all the other people who have lost their jobs to date, and to those who will be losing them this year. See what they have to say to you. And while your at it, check the current unemployment stats and the Q4 manufacturing results.......seems there are a quite a few people on your "victim" list Jay.

What you have is "democrat" syndrom....that if you just keep spending, all will be well. Only problem is, it doesnt seem to have worked so far, and worse, when you try that game you devalue currency. Weve had this talk before, regarding Roosevelts early blundering attempts at welfare, and his shift to the fiat. And heres what you just dont get. When you pull a stunt like printing as much cash as you can, and bailing out debtors, you make a statement. That statement is their are no repercussions for And what that tells people like me, people who are responsible and havent spent ourselves or our companies into the black hole of debt is that we dont have to work, all we have to do is suckle the government teat....just like all the other losers. Why should we? There is no incentive to succeed....not when there is no failure. In fact, all you do when you bail out debtors or save failed business models is make a statement that everyone else are the stupid ones. Tell me Jay, why should I work 12~16 hours a day, 5~7 days a week, when I can be a dirtbag, do nothing, and receive the same reward? Work ethic? Seems to me, my work ethic is pretty freaking stupid if can sit at home all day, run up the credit debt, then get out of jail free, and in the process wind up with more pocessions than I have now. So why should I be a taxpayer instead of a tax benefitor?

Jay, youve made these off hand sarcastic remarks about the "sky is falling"....but you still dont beleive that it really is. This isnt a burble, this is the no BS real thing. People are losing their jobs. Not a few, not a lot, but record numbers. And many of them have already overextended themselves on credit. They have no money to spend. That means they can purchase things they need, let alone things they dont need. That means shelves stay full. If shelves stay full, the retailers and wholesalers -the middle men- go out of business. If they go out of business, the manufactueres go out of business. The cascade effect....or falling domino if you prefer.

But we can just print more money, and all will be well, right? Clue to you mothers uncle Jay....those who "pull the levers" didnt 'pull the brake lever' when the needed to, and now the train is out of control. I mean really, these are the people who created this crisis, and now you beleive...

"as Im sure those who are pulling the levers know that there needs to be competiton in such an important market, and Im also sure there will be".

...Jay...really, you need to start reading.


There was a bumber sticker from the recent election, and it says it all.

The piper will have his due. The more money the government prints, the deeper the hole it digs.


Oh....you can start thinking about digging the hole another trillion deeper...

Governors ask Uncle Sam for $1 trillion



I dont care if either AMD or Intel have the CPU to end all CPUs....at this point, its got nothing to do with product quality, its got to do with neccesity, and no product, no CPU, no TV, no PC game is going to sell if theres no demand. Demand for CPUs is decreasing, not increasing. Both manufacturers are going to hurt, no ifs and or buts about it.....and thats not going to change anytime soon. And the difference between AMD and Intel is that AMD is deep in the red, with no prospect of paying of their debts anytime soon. It is now 2009, and we are one year closer to the senior note deadline. AMDs clever little deal to handle those fell through, in case you havenet been reading....and you if think the Fed is going to bail AMD out...I think you are overestimating AMDs prospects....again. Do you really think the Fed is going to blow off hundreds of thousands of jobs in michigan, but try to save a few thousand jobs in Austin, callie and germany? Big picture Jay....AMD ist producing anything that Intel cant, doesnt fall into the catogary of national asset technologically, isnt bringing any significant wealth to the GNP, and isnt employing enough people in the US for The Fed to even bother giving them a glance. NY is going bankrupt and the Abu's finally figured out the condition AMD is really in. And as far as competition goes, the Fed can legally fix Intels prices if need be.

AMD has no one but themselves to pull them out of this mess and frankley, unless the situation changes immediatly, which is highly unlikely, its doesnt even look like they are going to have the opportunity to pull themsleves out.

Oh, by the way, Before you start on the Abu's again, I suggest you read up on how the global recession is affecting them. If you think they are immune, or have an endless supply of cash to spend, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[rangers]

jaydee i have respect for your entheusiasm. problem is that made no flipping sense lol. strain? investors getting miffed? no, this is called now they cant play solitaire in the CPU market. good lord they are selling their stuff at such high volume and overpriced i would bet they could cut the cost 40% and still be operating in the black. this isnt Nvidia it's Intel. they dont sit pompusly assuming people will still clamour to their offerings. they sell them high because they can. they scale prices according to what is parallel and then go a little higher or lower depending on what they can get away with. people buy them and that is exactly the excitement about the P2. the have-nots with 775 LGA's see this as a chance to get what they want cheaper, not change platforms.
is this going to up end the server market? not likely. desktop market? to some degree. i would imagine IF AMD can do a better job of keeping OEM's supplied ON TIME they could gain some perecntage points back there but not immediately. they have alot of reconciliation to do with vendors.

got to agree with that, im always amazed that ati and nvidia can design and make there gfx chips, put them on a card and stick some memory on, and you can still pick a gfx card up for less than a CPU, makes me wonder how much profit they make on them

 

[turpit]

Necessity is mother of inovation. WWII was a horrible period, and advanced so much tecnologically. But this ain't WWII. Just a financial crisis.

Actually, the quote is "Necessity is the mother of invention", not " Necessity is mother of inovation", and it is the moral of the Aesop fable "The Crow and the Pitcher"

The Crow and the Pitcher By Aesop

WWIIs impact on the US economy in 1 paragrah
The US's entry to WWII came when the US was deeply entrenched in the great depression, or rather, WWII came to the US at the begining of the depressions end, as WWII was the event that ended the great depression. WWII ended the great depression by creating the demand for goods....war materiels to be specific, across the entire range of consumable and non consumable products. Critical demand. Demand which had to be supplied and as a result spured manufacturing. Manufacturing which created jobs. Jobs which delivered income to consumers. Consumers who could not consume due to a lack of retail goods. There were no retail good to be consumed as US manufacturing was almost entirely devoted to producing those war materiels. Consumers who can not consume are turned into one or both of 2 things....savers and/or investors, in this case the investment wasnt the unstable-unpredictable stock market, but garunteed government/war bonds. Futhermore, the majority of those consumers not in the civilian workforce (the "stunted" consumers), i.e the soldiers, were in theater, where they had little to nothing to spend their money on. These people were also turned into "savers" and/or "investors". At the end of WWII, you had 8 key elements that Roosevelt could never have achieved with his thinly disguised welfare programs: 1) A financially stable government. 2) A financially stable populus 3)A ready manufacturing base 4)Strong national spirit 5)denial inspired demand 6) A notable derth of hand out/owe me (democrat) mentality. 7)A ready, motivated workforce 8) A ready motivated breeding force. In one fell swoop, WWII created not only demand for manufactured goods, but the industrial and economic bases as well as the pyshcology to support it. The government had money to give to financial institutions. The financial insitutions then had money to lend to people. They did so responsibly. The people already had some savings, were responsible in their spending, and had jobs to pay off their debts. Jobs created by post war demand. Post war demand created 4 1/2 years of war required denial, plus prewar depression. The creation of the jobs was further facilitated by a solid industrial base ready and eager for conversion to post war manufacturing.

We have none of these things today, except for demand, and that is drying up.

We certainly dont have necessity. Post WWII, there was nothing, and everybody had that in vast quantites. In the 90s and early 2000s, there was everything, and plenty of credit to insure everyone had all they wanted. So what happens when you have made/consumed everything? You improve it/buy new. The problem now is that while there may be better cars, houses, or in this case computers, the old ones still work well enough. Food on the otherhand does not. Taxes never go away, and loans/credit has to be paid at some point. So, as I said to Jay, if the choice is between a new computer you really dont need, or food/gas/bills, where is the money going to go? People had food and jobs after WWII, but not cars, homes radios or other items catagoirized as 'discretionary'.....there was a huge demand for those items Today? Demand has been satisfied. How many homes and cars can you own? I have a a roof over my head, 2 cars, 2 laptops and 3 DTs, a milling machine and enough tools to build whatever I want, wood metal or plastic. Not to mention thousands in toys. And I own all of those things outright...no credit or loans....I am a statistical anomoly. How much more do I need? Do I need an i7 or PII? Nope. What about the people (the majority) who owe money on items like that? I have no descisions to make as I already made them Thos people do have descisions: Buy a new computer, or have the bank foreclose on the house, or have the creditor reposess the cars...or feed the kids? These people have the products. What they dont have is the money to pay for them, or the need to accumulate more....no demand other than for more cash, which, by no small coincidence is one of the reasons why counterfeiting is at an all time high in the US.

DT is now growing. Lappys are growing faster. Thus more market share. The smaller lapwarmers (netbooks) are riggin the statistcs because they are new and cheap !! !!

Not according to the last stats I saw. Perhaps you would care to provide a link. The Q4 results are not yet available, and the Q3 results, while no longer indicative of Q408 or Q109 because of the rapid increase in the recession, tell a different story. In fact, the last predictions I saw showed the market shrinking. That is, not expanding at a slower rate, but actually shrinking for the first time since 2001.

First, DT. From Mercury research, in Q4 of last year (Q4 numbers arent out yet, but they will be low) DT is shinking, mobile is gaining, but this is also before the recession really started rolling.

AMD surrenders more CPU market share to Intel

According to Mercury Research, the processor grew by 13.3% in Q3, driven by mobile CPU sales that gained about 27%.

Notebook shipments exceed desktops for first time in 3Q08, says iSuppli

Global notebook PC shipments exceeded those of desktops on a quarterly basis for the first time ever in the third quarter, marking a watershed event in the history of the industry, according to iSuppli.

These are for the entire IC market, not just CPUs
Global Chip Market To Shrink For Second Straight Year

The semiconductor industry already faced the prospect of things getting worse before they got better, but now technology research firm Gartner has revised last month's moderately gloomy outlook for chip sales next year toward some seriously dismal prognostication

This one is from today
Chip sales slump in November

Global sales of chips sank 9.8 percent in November, underscoring the impact the worldwide economic crisis is having on chipmakers, the Semiconductor Industry Association said Friday.

The San Jose, Calif.-based trade group said worldwide sales of semiconductors fell in November to $20.8 billion, a decline of 9.8 percent from November 2007 when sales were $23.1 billion.

Sales were down 7.2 percent from the $22.4 billion in October, according to the SIA.

Processor sales set to slump in 2009

Global sales of semiconductors are likely to fall 2.2% in 2009 due to weak demand for electronics worldwide, according to industry group World Semiconductor Trade Statistics (WSTS).
As recently as May, the group had forecast growth of 5.8% in 2009. But chip giants Intel and Samsung are steeling themselves for weak computer sales in the Christmas season and beyond as the economic crisis hits consumer sentiment.

The chip market will shrink to $256 billion next year, down from an expected $261.9 billion in 2008,...

On a more serious note, enterprise is not on the rocks. Is pretty much alive. Just because some silly companies (well, most of them) preemptivly fired people, doesn't mean they aren't in a very good financial shape or in a very good fiscal year. CEOs can be extremely dumb and history has told that too many times.

Quite correct. It is not. At the moment. It is going to be, as the cascade gets to that point. As the retailers and manufacturers and financial institutions go belly up, the demand in enterprise will shrink. You cant manage what doesnt exist, and if you cant manage it, theres no need for a building full of computers. Additionally, a fair amount of the computer equipment from those failed institutions will be returned to the market. A fair amount of it will be garbage. A fair amount wont, and those will be considerably cheaper than buying new, whether they are being auctioned off by the creditors, or sold outright....a double edged sword...the decrease in demand supplies the demand itself on the backstroke.

■AMD is presenting a good product once more in server market. The thing is, Flash BIOS and pay ONLY for the cpu upgrade.
■Intel is presenting a good product once more in server market. The thing is, you got to buy everything from scratch.

Who will sell more cpus might be diffeent from who has more profit. Honestly ? Intel might pull a Vista on this one.
And by that i dont mean a over priced i7. I mean the Xeon vs Opteron.

The server market is likely to shrink as well, and as far as I knew, AMD hadnt not been supplying a good product in the servermarket. The Opterons were the only CPU they have had for the past 2 years that was competative in terms of perfromance because of the IMC. Intels only real overall advantage in server was the abiltiy to supply demand. Now that Intel has adopted the IMC, they are giving AMD competition in terms of performance....this is not good for AMD, which is why it is critical that PII compete with i7.

Jay does need to be in touch with news. But they economy is hardly that crippled. Please, don't spread panic.
If governments get out off money, they make more and reduce its value. It is the way of the "fake" money we use everyday.
The financial markets yes, but by god I hoped no bailout to help them. Lately they were a inflacionist element with no wealth generation attached. They should have gone the way of dodo.

You are correct the economy is not crippled..........yet. But it is going to be. This is not panic, this is just the price that has to be paid for unrestricted lending, unrestriced commodities trading, and irresponsible spending. And everyone is going to have to suffer for it. How much depends on 2 things. How much each countries currency is devalued, and how irresponsible each individual was. For the responsible individuals living in the stable economies, they will not be appreciably effected, but then, those are not the individuals who contributed to this mess. Everyone eles is going to be hurt.

And while the economy is not yet crippled, this is only the tip of the iceberg....the first few dominoes to fall. More will follow. The smart people arent worried about the now, its about the 'what is to come'.

Will The Loss Of Consumer Credit Serve As The Next Economic Aftershock To Further Fuel The Financial Crisis?

Comercial Banks are pretty wealthy and healthy ya now ?

They are? News to me

Death Toll: 28. Latest Casualties: Haven Trust Bank + Sanderson State Bank

But don't worry too much about AMD and Intel not thriving with they "new" products. They still sell loads of old ones, and to beat this crisis they have sucessfully diversified. Of course the Core bussiness is always important.

Peace yall !

Both companies are going to be wounded. AMD has already lost much blood and cannot afford another wound.

 

[hathost82]

God forbid the government having to make sacrifices and cuts like all the rest of us huh? Now they want to hike taxes and spend even more...
Baby boomers are the gimme now generation and foot the bill later. Hopefully future generations learn from their mistakes.

I like your picture of that shirt.

 

[hathost82]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106492/Just-Half-Americans-Complain-Tax-Bill-Too-High.aspx

This is funny because 50% of americans don't even pay taxes anyway.

 

[vasplieon]

From what I have seen so far the Phenom II looks to really narrow the performance gap with Intel at 2/3 the cost. I am quite sure future purchases for my clients and I will be based upon economics opposed to the uber performance zenith that currently might only effect 1% of computer users. Hardware is far outpacing software, until some catching up is done in that area extra performance is somewhat superfluous (not that I am against more performance I am just being pragmatic).

 

[kirvinb]

When I first begain building pcs about 5 years ago...my mentor told me amd was the best!...always trust amd...amd amd amd...which in 03 was true..so i guess you can all me and amd fan boy (against my will) our store didnt build at an intel system until 07...thats how much my mentor hated intel...he refused to believe they were better

...But now intel is head boss in charge and amd is slow to catch up.....i hope these phenom II actually can compete again...cuz im afraid if intel remains unchallenged like it is now...we may witness a monopoly

 

[radnor]

I always like a good discussion. Anyway, you missed some points.

Actually, the quote is "Necessity is the mother of invention", not " Necessity is mother of inovation", and it is the moral of the Aesop fable "The Crow and the Pitcher"

The Crow and the Pitcher By Aesop

Don't be picky. I speak Galician, Spanish, English and Portuguese during my work day. That was a friday night post. I was happy something readable came out of it. I get home a bit burned out at friday.

WWIIs impact on the US economy in 1 paragrah
The US's entry to WWII came when the US was deeply entrenched in the great depression, or rather, WWII came to the US at the begining of the depressions end, as WWII .... i read it all, i agree, i just need to post so i can argue, and for formatting reasons...mmkay ?.....created by post war demand. Post war demand created 4 1/2 years of war required denial, plus prewar depression. The creation of the jobs was further facilitated by a solid industrial base ready and eager for conversion to post war manufacturing.

We have none of these things today, except for demand, and that is drying up.

Well, yes and no. Japan and the European Devastated economies were the target of American Industry. The US became a super-power because of it. So did USSR and Cold War began. Arms Race, Space Race. Necessity was there. Still is.

Now, if American Companies removed that impressive Industrial Power from their borders (and governments lets them do it), thats your undoing. Free markets is one thing, the american way is another, what goes on at the moment is another completely diferent thing.

My point was, tecnologically, WWII acelerated the process. Rocket Science, Jet Engines, Nuclear Energies, Comunications, Avionics, etc. Hell even socially was a revolution because it ended (or trigered the beginning of the end) of a colonial period that lasted too long.

We certainly dont have necessity. Post WWII, there was nothing, and everybody had that in vast quantites. In the 90s and early 2000s, there was everything, and plenty of credit to insure everyone had all they wanted. So what happens when you have made/consumed everything? You improve it/buy new. The problem now is that while there may be better cars, houses, or in this case computers, the old ones still work well enough. Food on the otherhand does not. Taxes never go away, and loans/credit has to be paid at some point. So, as I said to Jay, if the choice is between a new computer you really dont need, or food/gas/bills, where is the money going to go? People had food and jobs after WWII, but not cars, homes radios or other items catagoirized as 'discretionary'.....there was a huge demand for those items Today? Demand has been satisfied. How many homes and cars can you own? I have a a roof over my head, 2 cars, 2 laptops and 3 DTs, a milling machine and enough tools to build whatever I want, wood metal or plastic. Not to mention thousands in toys. And I own all of those things outright...no credit or loans....I am a statistical anomoly. How much more do I need? Do I need an i7 or PII? Nope. What about the people (the majority) who owe money on items like that? I have no descisions to make as I already made them Thos people do have descisions: Buy a new computer, or have the bank foreclose on the house, or have the creditor reposess the cars...or feed the kids? These people have the products. What they dont have is the money to pay for them, or the need to accumulate more....no demand other than for more cash, which, by no small coincidence is one of the reasons why counterfeiting is at an all time high in the US.

Credit is a funny thing. Your conclusions are not bad, but a bit off the mark. Maybe it is what we call diference of opinion.

Credit can boom a economy sky high. Cheap money does that. The problem was Alan Greenspan. The crisis was to come a long time ago (2004), but Mr Alan in his infinite greed knew people will continue to consume while the money was cheap. Sub-prime and Toxic Mortages have their names for a reason. What trigered the crisis was the high percentage of these types of loans. Of course Mr Alan wasn't there went the bubble bursted, he left a memo. Ill left you read more on that, you seem a pretty informed chap, but you might better look for the root of them problem.

CEO can be Idiots, same way a President of the Federal Reserve. By the way, that is as public as the Federal Express.

What people/companies do forget, is credit is cool when you ask it, but you wil have to pay it and lose money in interests. ah heck isn't it ?

Not according to the last stats I saw. Perhaps you would care to provide a link. The Q4 results are not yet available, and the Q3 results, while no longer indicative of Q408 or Q109 because of the rapid increase in the recession, tell a different story. In fact, the last predictions I saw showed the market shrinking. That is, not expanding at a slower rate, but actually shrinking for the first time since 2001.

First, DT. From Mercury research, in Q4 of last year (Q4 numbers arent out yet, but they will be low) DT is shinking, mobile is gaining, but this is also before the recession really started rolling.

The chip market will shrink to $256 billion next year, down from an expected $261.9 billion in 2008,... [/quote]

Your are better informed then me on this part. I'll buy you a beer. I've cutted for quoting purposes, your info was correct.
For the time being of course.

So you say the chip market will shrink about 2% ? On a prediction ? FYI Market Forecasts are made of Fail. Good analists know what to "read" from a forecast. Auto sales dropped almost 80% here in Europe in a few months. Now that is what i call a crisis. 2% ? Over a year ? On a Forecast ? Fluctuation. I've read all your post, believe it or not. It was a great post its the least i can do.

WWII situation here. The crisis will come. The need will be there. Companies are already adapting. Some of them. IT companies seem faster and better managed than the rest.

Quite correct. It is not. At the moment. It is going to be, as the cascade gets to that point. As the retailers and manufacturers and financial institutions go belly up, the demand in enterprise will shrink. You cant manage what doesnt exist, and if you cant manage it, theres no need for a building full of computers. Additionally, a fair amount of the computer equipment from those failed institutions will be returned to the market. A fair amount of it will be garbage. A fair amount wont, and those will be considerably cheaper than buying new, whether they are being auctioned off by the creditors, or sold outright....a double edged sword...the decrease in demand supplies the demand itself on the backstroke.

Don't be too worried here. In accounting terms, used good aren't a very sound investment. I guess most that hardware will be exported to other nations, that could NEVER buy them new anyway. So it is going to satisfy a demand that existed, but there was no product for it. There are emerging economies that will grab them pretty fast. Don't worry about the cost of shipping, it is just too big of a volume.

The server market is likely to shrink as well, and as far as I knew, AMD hadnt not been supplying a good product in the servermarket. The Opterons were the only CPU they have had for the past 2 years that was competative in terms of perfromance because of the IMC. Intels only real overall advantage in server was the abiltiy to supply demand. Now that Intel has adopted the IMC, they are giving AMD competition in terms of performance....this is not good for AMD, which is why it is critical that PII compete with i7.

Here you really missed the spot. While we enthusiasts look at shiny new chippery, a company when buys, buys on bang-per-buck ratio. The IMC is important, or it is a factor, but server market benchmarks are a bit more complex than gaming/enthusiast ones. So don't lose your temper here. i7 needs a new plataform, Shangai needs a bios upgrade.

There will be customers for both.

How much each countries currency is devalued, and how irresponsible each individual was.

Golden sentence here. Now, the economy is Global. The US markets are no longer number one. The EU market is bigger, and the Asian market is getting ridoculously huge. Now were americans irresponsable ? I guess it is their undoing. In Europe (dependign on each country ofc) it was never as easy as in the US, to get credit.

Maybe we Europeans are as much as irresposible as you Americans, the diference it is out governments have some control on things. While you Americans hate government regulation, it was un-regulated action that brought us to this mess.

Now be responsible. The "Bush Bailout" is pocket money. In NYSE the first (day) slump of the crisis 1.3 trillion evapored.
No, i don't have links. Look it up. The real information is there, you just need to open your eyes on it, or talk to friends with financial/Economy professions so they can explain you some points. You will be surprised how gray is the financial world.

They are? News to me

Death Toll: 28. Latest Casualties: Haven Trust Bank + Sanderson State Bank

Those are not Comercial banks. Soz.

Both companies are going to be wounded. AMD has already lost much blood and cannot afford another wound.

Yes, they will. Yes they will survive. Diversification. Don't be so alarmist. And don't spread panic please.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Here http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212641&page=11

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

OK, so since we see the state of Oregon, yes a blue state, and the commision on monies for roads at the fed level, all currently led by dems, they both want to raise taxes. Why? Because were driving less!!! Yes, and also? Because our cars are getting better mileage!!
The only one against it? A minor transportation trucking industry group that non union. Theyre digging up ways to raise our taxes, and Obama isnt even in yet. The easiest way for gov to raise taxes is the old "we need it for the roads" trick, as everyone wants better roads, not that this money will ever go to road byuilding mind you, but that seems to never get printed by our loving media
Having lighter cars causes 2 things, better mileage, and less wear and tear on our road systems, which is also the byproduct of using the roads lesss, again something the media has excluded in the stories I read about this
In the trucking industry, youre taxed by axle and or weight

If I make references to the economy getting better, itll come with Obama, their man, as the hero. Itll comebecause thats who they want to do the job, and trust me, as soon as hes in, things will start "looking" up. Ive seen this all before.
After bombing and destroying all our competition in WWII, we were left with having to sell all our cranked up factories from the wars goods to them, at a nice profit. We held certain restrictions, later relaxed on dev on many things, as we supplied that, and were unimpeded in advancement, This went to our allies as well, as far as the rebuilding thing goes. After a time, those restrictions were let go, and having planned obsolessence included in our economy, simply because we could, the other effected countries had no such thing, and what they made had to last, and when they reached our level of reliability and performance, as seen in the auto industry, we started losing sales to Honda,Toyota etc. Yes, this is all true, and how it went down, and Ive known this for along time, but Ive also seen things like our current economy as well, and trust me, the ones that started this arent the ones who are going to finish it, as this is but an opportunity for certain players, and disaster for others. Youll have to look between the lines, get a wisp of whos who, and connect the dots, and youll start to see the real big picture

 

[fazers_on_stun]

From what I have seen so far the Phenom II looks to really narrow the performance gap with Intel at 2/3 the cost. I am quite sure future purchases for my clients and I will be based upon economics opposed to the uber performance zenith that currently might only effect 1% of computer users. Hardware is far outpacing software, until some catching up is done in that area extra performance is somewhat superfluous (not that I am against more performance I am just being pragmatic).

Hmm, as posted on the Xtremesystems thread mentioned above, it looks like a 2.8GHz P2 averages about 21% slower than a 2.6GHz i7. Considering the Turbo boost raises the i7 about one speed bin on average, then that doesn't look like AMD is catching up just yet:

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Just looking at what the average user wants tho, and the gaming benches, which is probably No1 usage, it doesnt look that bad, as it wins 2 of 3. Its more totally dependant on i7, much moreso, and the buyers usages, than the P2, plus add in costs