Phenom 2 920 and 940 Benchmarks

[gallag]

jdj, AMD's new business model should try incurring profits at some point. Intel can play the price game better than you give credit for because they have massive cash and profits.

 

[gallag]

Also, the price of the black editions proves the point, If AMD get the lead again (which I am sure they will) you will see the FX brand brought back, Do you not see why they put the FX brand away and brought out the black edition?

I cant believe I am arguing with someont that thinks a company would not charge more for a product if they could, It does not mean they would sell less, They would still have cheaper cpus for the poor man but they would also have a high profet range for the rich man, The way it has always been done.

 

[uguv]

So, for twice the price, the 9650 is going to sell? And then therres the lower end, as we havnt even seen this yet. So, having competiton, whos stopping AMD? Whos stopping average Joe from buying a P2 as opposed to a Intel quad? Not Intel, and the ONLY way they can stop this is to lower its pricing. Also, as has been said many a time here, on a enthusiast site by both Intel and AMD users, i7 isnt for them, it costs too much. So whats the aveage Joe gonna think? So, when i say that this may upset Intels applecart, and drive down pricing, it may be accross the board

The Q9650 is about one and three quarters more than the price of the Q9550 right now. I don't know how well it's selling but I expect if they weren't selling any they'd drop the price. Like I said, if the deneb chips can compete I'd fully expect Intel to drop the price by a bit.

We'll have to see what low end parts AMD releases. Right now for under $100 the E5200 is pretty much unbeatable.

If Deneb doesn't live up to the hype then Intel will probably leave prices alone for a while.

One problem AMD has is that it doesn't really market its product and it has very little name recognition outside of the people who are in a tech field or are "enthusiasts". Intel doesn't really have to beat AMD's prices. If they are close then "average Joe" is probably going to go for the name he recognizes.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here Jay. I love to see the 2 companies competing. I really don't care who wins. I hold no love for either company and would be happy to go with AMD the next time I'm building if their processors are a better option for me at that time. I just think you're declaring Deneb a phenominal success a bit prematurely.

 

[jed]

Thats the old business model, and its changed. Already being done. Have you forgotten the pricing on the BEs?

So what your saying is AMD was not trying to make a profit
for the last 2.5 years,

 

[gallag]

Holy sh12, Frys are selling i7-920 for $229 this weekend. Lucky yanks, Q9650 performance for $229

 

[turpit]

If you stop here, and all cry out, the sky is falling, youre as good as dead already. Many a business finds these times as the MOST ooportunistic of times. Why? Changing dynamics in the market place allows for changes period. Ill ask this. Between Intel and AMD, and the dynamics as some claim demand much lower prices, who has to change the most? AMD? or Intel? And, having made those changes, who does it effect the most? These are questions you need to ask yourself, as I alluded to it in another thread awhile ago

No, they dont. There are only a few companies that "finds these times as the MOST ooportunistic of times.". Unfortunately for them, AMD is not one of those companies which offers anything to make this a boon situation for them...niether for that matter is intel.

They manufacture a product for which demand is shrinking. The actual market itself is shrinking and lower prices are unlikely to change that. Ther are going to be far fewer start ups for the forseeable future, and as more companies go out of business, (9000 retail stores alone are predicted to close this year...just in the US) not only are prospective expansion sales to those companies lost, but their equipment with be sold off. If the predictions are correct, the market very well be may flooded with used systems, no small number of which will be in good condition and of competative performance.....and at CH11 auction prices. Furthermore, the trend now, as has been for several years, is towards mobile. DT is slowly dying in the consumer market, and enterprise is on the rocks for the time being. For the first time in years, Intel is offering actual competiton in server, and they are already miles ahead of AMD in mobile it terms of marketshare/stability.

What you keep 'not getting' about these dynamics you are trying to speak of is that the 'supply' of lower prices is moot.....becaase the 'demand' is going away across the board. People are not going to say, "hey, lets skip all meals and a mortgage payment this week becuase AMD PII is real cheap". Unemployment will keep rising, companies will keep cutting costs, combining or going CH11 all of which means that not only is individual discretionary income evaporating, but corporate funds are drying up as well. And honestly, DT is not the place to compete.

Jay, I really suggest you start reading the financial news...the cascade effect and how it is and will continue crippling the economy.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Thats the old business model, and its changed. Already being done. Have you forgotten the pricing on the BEs?

So what your saying is AMD was not trying to make a profit
for the last 2.5 years,

So, follow your comment thru. IF AMD continued to charge the same for P2 as they do for P1, whod egt more sales? Intel or AMD? And then, who would have to extremely lower their prices? Intel?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

So, what people are learning that, in an economic downturn, not as much is being sold. Hmmm. Is this your first recession? Im being respectfull here, and its a legit question. I mean, is this most heres first recession with resposibilities? This is purportedly one of the worst, but we will see its end, and possibly sooner than most can see st this point. If AMD goes under, they go under, but that doesnt change :what theyre doing : how theyre doing it : what they have to use to do it with, as far a goods

 

[jed]

So, follow your comment thru. IF AMD continued to charge the same for P2 as they do for P1, whod egt more sales? Intel or AMD? And then, who would have to extremely lower their prices? Intel?

Look all Intel would have to do keep AMD from making a profit,
is to lower the price for the Q9650 and all chips under it, and
AMD will have to lower its prices, its a done deal.

 

[gallag]

So, what people are learning that, in an economic downturn, not as much is being sold. Hmmm. Is this your first recession? Im being respectfull here, and its a legit question. I mean, is this most heres first recession with resposibilities? This is purportedly one of the worst, but we will see its end, and possibly sooner than most can see st this point. If AMD goes under, they go under, but that doesnt change :what theyre doing : how theyre doing it : what they have to use to do it with, as far a goods

I don't really understand your point any more, What is it again?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Look, I know these times are hard. I worked for a company where the owner allowed the tenured employees a chance to actually vote to either keep your 40Hr work week, and lay off the non tenured people, or, go 32 Hrs and keep them, we all voted to keep them. This is and was a fine company, doing quite well, and kudos to its owner as well.

My points are this. If you stop and let these things effect you too much, then youre certainly a victim of it, whether you have to be or not. On a business level, the same applies, except the exceptions of where you can make certain strides in certain things where previously they didnt exist. I dont particularly quote the Inq, but their 08 assessment hit it square for me. The men behind the curtain pull all the levers, and we all have to jump somewhat, but its also some of these that make their opportunities, and lil things like Intel and AMD could play a part, so, in essence, no one really knows how this will play out, as Im sure those who are pulling the levers know that there needs to be competiton in such an important market, and Im also sure there will be

 

[Hellboy]

Look, I know these times are hard. I worked for a company where the owner allowed the tenured employees a chance to actually vote to either keep your 40Hr work week, and lay off the non tenured people, or, go 32 Hrs and keep them, we all voted to keep them. This is and was a fine company, doing quite well, and kudos to its owner as well.

My points are this. If you stop and let these things effect you too much, then youre certainly a victim of it, whether you have to be or not. On a business level, the same applies, except the exceptions of where you can make certain strides in certain things where previously they didnt exist. I dont particularly quote the Inq, but their 08 assessment hit it square for me. The men behind the curtain pull all the levers, and we all have to jump somewhat, but its also some of these that make their opportunities, and lil things like Intel and AMD could play a part, so, in essence, no one really knows how this will play out, as Im sure those who are pulling the levers know that there needs to be competiton in such an important market, and Im also sure there will be

I will say that your employer is the sort of boss that every one needs right now...

We have had the press saying that around 1400 retailers will go bust this year in the uk and some will be of the big name brands the like that we have seen already go...

Woolworths / woolco went which was US origionated and a few others...

Its a shame that there will be more to come for most as these will never make a comeback.. However some deserve to go such as the pc worlds that have ruined trade over the last 10 - 15 years..

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Some will also come back with the same name, just new ownership. Seen that before also. New owners buy the name for company recognition. Even after the old company has been lomg gone. Thing is, the people that can swat the Intesl of thwe world away with a simple backhand dont benefit unless we, the workers buy their products, so even when they try and reign in their profits and power, in order to continue on, its business as usal, eventually, and usually faster than people expect. I have the feeling that having Obama in office will quicken this time, not for what he does, but because of who he represents.
Anyways, to me, its good to see competition here. Later today we will have more benches with oc comparisons of both Agenas as well as Intels cpu vs P2. Thatll be interesting, and hopefully we'll see some competitive numbers

 

[fazers_on_stun]

jdj, Do you actually believe that if AMD launched a chip that competed with Intel, Not just thee medium range chips i.e q9450 but with the high end as well they would not price them as high as they could?

Sure he does, since we all know AMD is a pro-consumer company clearly not out to make a profit or anything dastardly evil like that In fact, I heard Hector gets a rash whenever AMD gets too much cash, which is why he then goes out and relieves AMD of $14M of it every year. Whatta guy!

 

[baldinie]

Sure he does, since we all know AMD is a pro-consumer company clearly not out to make a profit or anything dastardly evil like that In fact, I heard Hector gets a rash whenever AMD gets too much cash, which is why he then goes out and relieves AMD of $14M of it every year. Whatta guy!

woah woah! i did not say AMD is against making a profit. OF COURSE it would sell a chip at the highest price it could, but its different to intel which is on top and creaming the market. what i said was AMD would not use creaming pricing, as it would need to rebuild market share. You dont build market share buy having the most expensive parts, you have to price and perform at a level people WANT.

and all the economic stuff atm is just a self forfilling prophacy. the banks say, times will be hard we wont lend.. then shocker, times get hard and the banks dont lend. if you say the DOW or the FTSE will fall, people sell their shares, then they fall...hmm.. if everyone just shut up the world economy would carry on fine, not great like before, but ok. now this brings us to AMD and Intel. Firstly. i DO read the FT and have studied business and economics at college, and also i can tell you that the computing market is actually still growing, all be it at the lowest level for around 15years. AMD is being helped out by Abu Darbi, so it has some capital to start to develope chips again, and it no longer has to deal with manufacturing processes. Also when it comes to AMD moving to 45nm, as intel took AMD tech and improved it, AMD can look at intel's 45nm arcitecture and learn from it. So it might be closer than some of you seem to think.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

...
as for AMD pricing at intel level, no they wont, even with a comparible CPU, because AMD wants to regain market share. the share has swung back and forth between AMD and Intel, and now AMD thanks to the HD4xxx and p2 will regain some of its lost share since its athlon XP hay day.

That's the Hector Ruinz "marketshare at all costs" philosophy which has been rather conclusively demonstrated to be a total bust. AMD just needs to survive the next year or so until the gobal economy improves. P2 may eventually help AMD's bottom line if they can convince enough OEMs (Dell, HP, etc) to offer AMD-based systems but you also have to remember what Barcie/P1 did to those companies.

And my problem is not with intel making money, the more money they make, the more they spend on RnD and the better parts we all get as a result.

AMD has and will continue to cut back on R&D (look at Bulldozer and 32nm being pushed out to 2011 on their last roadmap, and no sign of Bobcat), so either AMD will have to start copying Intel's design innovations or you won't see a lot of new stuff coming down the pike from them.

But its the way they do it, milking in the market, ripping off their customer base. It shows that they do not respect customer loyalty or brand loyalty. AMD did it to an extent making their parts backwards compatible and launching entire platforms(spider, now dragon).

Let's not forget all those happy, satisfied QFX customers - both of them! - who were promised a drop-in K10 upgrade as well... Good thing BaronMatrix is not here to regale us with his megatasking tales of triumph. Oops, I forgot - he never did buy a QFX board.

 

[baldinie]

actually, market share gain has been done before. The AMD XP's were cheaper and better than the P4's, and they gave AMD the sing, before the athlon xp, 9/10 PC's were intel, when the XP came out 8/10 pc's were AMD. so low cost, high performance to gain market share does work.

And we know that the p2 works on current AM2+ mobo's, and u dont need to get a whole new memory pattern (tripple channel ddr3).

 

[roofus]

they are both companies.they have the exact same agenda. grab as much marketshare as possible and make a profit. no saints exist in corporations contrary to belief.

 

[baldinie]

i know that! i'm not a naive child. however there are more ethical companies, maybe not in the US 😛(joke) but there are, look at the co-op.
but i agree, in this type of market ethics dont play a big part in their business models.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Im talking about how things really havnt changed. Theres still 300+$ cpus out there. Im talking highend at 1000+$. If the focus is below 300$, Intels business model isnt set for that. Sure, they lower their prices eventually, but, just like nVidia hoped the G200 series would tide them over to holg up their business model, so to Intel hopes to have the i7 do the same thing. If AMD drives the i7 pricing down, then its AMDs new dynamics in this market thats winning. And, whos to complain?

I think Intel demonstrates they want to compete across all segments, including netbooks which unfortunately seems to have escaped AMD's notice, as well as bottom line. Until P2 consistently wins the majority of benchmarks out there, and can lay claim to the top-end performance crown, they will have to compete with EOL Core2's and Penryns. In the meantime, I wouldn't worry too much about Intel's business model - it's AMD's I would worry about since I don't think they read the directions in the box their model came in. Probably explains why the landing gear is on top of the fuselage...

You seem to build a pretty high tower of expectations based on AMD's 48xx graphics cards, maybe the chipsets and the P2 overclocking demoes. Sorta like expecting Penn State to come roaring back in the 2nd half over USC, just because JoePa didn't fall over dead at halftime ...

Anyway, Happy New Year and yes I also hope AMD sticks around to compete with Intel.

 

[baldinie]

Happy new year too. Also I just want to say again, I'm not an AMD fan boy, i just like competition. Also its a point to say, as with graphics cards where nvidia develop games with games makers, then shockingly do better than ATi in benchmarks (durrh), intel work with benchmarking companies and so hone a lot of the benchmarks to make their CPU's look better. Which is why i only really look at the benchies for things i use PC's for, winrar and games and dvds... usually casual stuff. You can see from the original point of this post, the Intels were miles ahead in things like vantage, but barely scrapped out a lead (or fell behind) the AMD P2. so i think AMD's new offerings will be ok, and will be able to compete.

 

[hathost82]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-gaming,2061.html

If you take a look at the scaling it's very dependent on the software more than the hardware. Ph1 even does a "decent" job on some of the titles though obviously not as well as c2e or ci7. If the ph2 is am to at least match up to a c2e and do so at a decent price I wouldn't be surprised to see AMD market share improve. Especially looking at the price differential for ci7 and c2e.

Ci7 ~ $1000 top end, $500 mid, $250 low
C2E ~$1400 or $1000
C2Q ~$500 top end $189 for a q6600
Ph1 ~ $160 top end =/

Supposing that pricing denotes it's expected performance then wouldn't you figure that the Ph2 will perform similarly to a mid range Ci7. Figuring that AMD prices it's hardware in a similar way to how ATI vs Nvidia came out?

Also the Ph1 isn't really a bad cpu, yes AMD has an OC'ing deficit compared to Intel but expecting a 50% oc only really became the norm with a c2d more typical oc prior to that was around 20% which is on par with AMD's cpu's.

For myself if the Ph2 offers performance on par with an Intel midrange ci7 and have the ocing characteristics that have been reported so far and manage to do so at a cheaper price ($340 expected retail or 32% cheaper than midrange ci7) then why wouldn't you want to pick one up? Just waiting to see the game benchmarks and reviews before settling on which way to go.

Also using Crysis as a test for any hardware now is a joke as it seems that no matter what hardware you have Crysis will kill it. Farcry2 is a HUGE improvement as far as optimization goes and the fps that hardware can put out on it is great.

Looking at 1900x1200
Farcry2
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-gaming,2061-11.html check out with 8x AA and Ph1
C:Warhead
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-gaming,2061-8.html again 8x AA
Supreme Commander
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-gaming,2061-6.html probably the best result for a Ph1

You can't say that is that bad ESPECIALLY considering the Phenom1 is 1/6 the price for the cpu and 1/2 the price for the mobo!

 

[fazers_on_stun]

woah woah! i did not say AMD is against making a profit. OF COURSE it would sell a chip at the highest price it could, but its different to intel which is on top and creaming the market. what i said was AMD would not use creaming pricing, as it would need to rebuild market share. You dont build market share buy having the most expensive parts, you have to price and perform at a level people WANT.

and all the economic stuff atm is just a self forfilling prophacy. the banks say, times will be hard we wont lend.. then shocker, times get hard and the banks dont lend. if you say the DOW or the FTSE will fall, people sell their shares, then they fall...hmm.. if everyone just shut up the world economy would carry on fine, not great like before, but ok. now this brings us to AMD and Intel. Firstly. i DO read the FT and have studied business and economics at college, and also i can tell you that the computing market is actually still growing, all be it at the lowest level for around 15years. AMD is being helped out by Abu Darbi, so it has some capital to start to develope chips again, and it no longer has to deal with manufacturing processes. Also when it comes to AMD moving to 45nm, as intel took AMD tech and improved it, AMD can look at intel's 45nm arcitecture and learn from it. So it might be closer than some of you seem to think.

Please note the smiley faces in my post, which are an indication of sarcasm.

Of course AMD would like to make a profit - they could start down that road by getting rid of Hector and saving themselves $14M/yr, for one thing. As for market share, that should not even be a consideration for AMD at this point - they need to concentrate on survival. Unfortunately they have put themselves almost completely out of control of their own destiny, IMHO, and have to depend on IBM's process engineering, Abu Dhabi's investment money, NY State needing jobs, etc. etc. in order to survive. I think it was Ed at overclockers.com who stated AMD didn't need just an i7 competitor - they needed a knockout with P2 and to reclaim the crown so convincingly that even the Intel fanbois couldn't argue much.

i can tell you that the computing market is actually still growing

That doesn't jibe with what I've been reading: Chip stocks dive in 2008 as demand, prices slide:

The semiconductor industry, notoriously volatile even without the shock of a global economic downturn, was badly hurt in 2008 as prices for memory chips continued their dizzyingly rapid fall and demand for PC microprocessors dropped off amid weaker demand.

and

No relief is expected for 2009. The Semiconductor Industry Association recently forecast chip sales will fall by more than 5 percent to $247 billion next year before recovering in 2010.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

actually, market share gain has been done before. The AMD XP's were cheaper and better than the P4's, and they gave AMD the sing, before the athlon xp, 9/10 PC's were intel, when the XP came out 8/10 pc's were AMD. so low cost, high performance to gain market share does work.

And we know that the p2 works on current AM2+ mobo's, and u dont need to get a whole new memory pattern (tripple channel ddr3).

Yes, you are right AMD did gain a lot of marketshare (above 25% at one point IIRC) but that was during an economic growth period. And I don't believe AMD ever had an 80% market share - I think you meant Intel's marketshare dropped to 80%, right? AMD could have gained even more market share I believe but got capacity-constrained by their fabs.

Currently AMD has just the one fab, and by far the bulk of their production is still 65nm, and the market is moving to the low-end side anyway - just look at all the Atoms Intel is selling...

Aren't the AM2 P2's already EOLed by AMD? They are moving to the AM3 DDR3 platforms in Q2 or Q3 of this year IIRC.

I really doubt AMD is going to improve their marketshare significantly in the next year, unless Intel's 45nm fab in Israel gets taken out by some Hamas rockets from Gaza. Maybe that's Hector's and Abu Dhabi's secret plan

 

[baldinie]

lets not start on the gaza crises here.

and no frazer, here in the UK at least, the athlon xp's gave intel an 8/10 new pc's sold market share. it myt have only been on pc's not individual cpu's that we all buy. (it was a few years ago). and chip sales may be down, but the last report i read, at the beginning of december had the computing market one of the few sectors still on the rise, but only just.

and the AM3 is supposed to work on the AM2+ platform, and supposidly will have DDR2 and 3 support, but we'll see, it might be too costly for AMD to do that.