PSU tier list 2.0

[turkey3_scratch]

A couple of posts on recent pages have me wondering now. I have the remarkably overbuilt Antec SG-650, now eight years old. It's never been run particularly hard, ever. Do I have any real reason to consider replacing it? I'm thinking not, but I am very open-minded.

I probably wouldn't. My philosophy is if it's going to break and it's well-built it'll have a protection kick in, or if the output quality gets bad enough you'll probably get freezes and stuff, so use it till it breaks. But that's just me.

 

[Karadjgne]

On a gtx1050ti or gtx950, you are right, it's not pushed at all. Even with a massive OC on either Minion or Igor cpus, that 650 has tons of redundancy, even considering capacitor degeneration. About the only thing I'd do is start looking around at replacement prices on another few good units and if one comes up on a rediculously good sale, get it. Other than that, it ain't broke, so don't need fixin.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I am not going to be recommending the Corsair CXM units anymore, based on what I read today. As many of you know I was gone for about a year, up in the mountains on a reforestation project so I was basically without any possible internet access for almost that entire time. That being said, I missed a lot of what has occurred in the industry during that time and am playing catch up now.

I was under the impression that the NEW CXM units were much more reliable than the previous CX units as they used a totally new double forward DC-DC custom CWT platform and much better quality capacitors than what we saw on those CX models that tended to have premature failures. Since I can only find a single review of the CXM 550w units, I think I am going to have to believe what I have read in that review unless, and until, somebody shows me clear evidence to the contrary.

The Corsair CX550M delivered power both under combined loading and crossloading, but it did not pass the combined and crossload testing in accordance with the ATX specification, so according to my evaluation methodology, it is not deserving of an evaluation. Upon first glance, the unit manages to deliver the voltage hold-up time of more than 10 ms. But because of a too lowly-rated bulk input capacitor, the power good signal does not, and upon further testing with a precise AC supply interruption, it is clear to me that the voltage doesn’t even stay in spec unless the hold-up time is much shorter. So short in fact that it may pose a risk of instability even if you actually use a UPS in conjunction with the power supply. Of course you can just buy a much higher-rated model, like the CX750M. But why do that? Why not just get a higher-end series with lower power for at a similar price point?

Another thing which seems very strange to me are the protections. Corsair only states that there is the OPP present. I found no such thing, the unit never reacted to overload and shut down when the voltage @+12 V fell under 9.5 V. This is more like a joke than protection to me. On the other hand I found the CX550M has OTP. It has also been reported there is in fact OCP working on the +3.3 and +5 V rails (most likely through the Anpec buck controller). So the advertised protections work at “meh” rate at best while there are other protections present which seem to work but are not advertised. This is kinda strange.

What I like about the series is that thanks to the DC-DC modules used, the regulation easily reaches the high-end class. It’s pretty much fantastic. Also the efficiency is really very good. However the ripple suppression hardly falls to within the margins of my mainstream requirements, and the -12V regulator has a difficult time keeping up with the high-speed fan connected to it. The thing is, there are huge differences in pricing. With discounts, the CXM is so damn cheap (and that includes shipping) in the US (I have seen it for 40 US dollars with shipping) that even with all corner-cutting, this unit still make a lot sense from a financial standpoint. For the money, there is simply nothing else that matches it. But here in Europe where the price is easily more than twice as high you just expect better performance. And some competing series (like the Cooler Master GM) have that. Corsair units perform great in the high-end, but it seems as though their mainstream still just doesn’t get things right.

https://www.hardwareinsights.com/corsair-cx550m-farewell-group-design/7/

Also, that review is from January of this year and is not a group regulated unit so it's not the older model being reviewed.

 

[Sakkura]

The grey CXM units from CWT never had like all-Japanese capacitors etc. but they are a step up in capacitor quality compared to the old green CX units as well as many of the budget competitors.

The short hold-up time is an issue, but it's not so much reliability. The unit may turn off unexpectedly if your power grid sucks. It's not something that will ever damage anything, it's just an annoyance (well, a very serious annoyance if you're in the middle of something important).

It's still a step up from the green CX, but it remains very much a budget unit.

The Vengeance series is upgraded to all-Japanese capacitors. Looking at the Jonnyguru reviews, it seems they still went with rather small primary capacitors for that series though, so the hold-up time might still fall short.

 

[Onus]

I the SG-650 on a machine with a HD7970, which used around 212W-221W while mining, so gaming would have probably been about the same, maybe a little more; still <50%.

I'm pretty sure I used a Corsair CXM-450 in Igor, and it runs 24/7 and has not wigged out on any power-flickers. The whole system pulls about 25W at idle though, so the hold-up time is probably solid.

 

[Darkbreeze]

We know, based on what Aris has said during some of his reviews, that below 500w it's not as much of a problem, but over 500w it can be a much bigger issue. Plus, the fact that it has rather poor ripple suppression suggests to me that there is a very real concern in regard to the probable rapid destruction of connected hardware. I won't be recommending them, unless, like I said, there is very clear and contrary evidence by an unbiased third party. Since I don't have the means, or the knowledge, to do in depth reviews of power supplies I have to take those who do at their word except when there is clear evidence to the contrary that a unit which was not hand picked did not exhibit the same issues.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

The CX non-M are cheaper and higher quality than the CXM. The CX non-M have a rifle bearing fan and the CXM have a sleeve bearing.

We know, based on what Aris has said during some of his reviews, that below 500w it's not as much of a problem, but over 500w it can be a much bigger issue. Plus, the fact that it has rather poor ripple suppression suggests to me that there is a very real concern in regard to the probable rapid destruction of connected hardware. I won't be recommending them, unless, like I said, there is very clear and contrary evidence by an unbiased third party. Since I don't have the means, or the knowledge, to do in depth reviews of power supplies I have to take those who do at their word except when there is clear evidence to the contrary that a unit which was not hand picked did not exhibit the same issues.

Only site that measured high ripple was Tweakers with 85mv at full load on the CX450M https://tweakers.net/productreview/136105/corsair-cx450m.html#ripple

But ripple is lower in the testing here: https://us.hardware.info/reviews/6981/10/corsair-cx450m-review-decent-budget-power-supply-ripple

And very good here on the CX650M: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-cx650m-psu,4770-9.html

 

[Darkbreeze]

First of all, don't ever link us.hardware.info to me again, ever. LOL.

Secondly, those are both different models than the one I'm primarily speaking about. I guess I should have been more clear about referring to the CXM 550w units. We already know from past experience that different models within the same series can have WILDLY different reviews, even from the exact same reviewer, so reviews on the 450 and 650w units don't necessarily have much to do with the 550w model.

Thirdly, with the -12v ripple being 75.2mv@20% capacity, 86mv@80% and 96mv@100%, I think that's pretty substantial. I don't know, exactly, what the ATX or, generally much lower "recommended" specification is for ripple on the -12v, but I'm going to assume it's similar to the +12v which says anything over 60mv at any percentage is probably a bad thing.

I suppose I should also say that it's also the exact model that Corsair currently lists on it's website, so this is not another one of those "that's the older model, not this one" type scenarios.

 

[Sakkura]

We know, based on what Aris has said during some of his reviews, that below 500w it's not as much of a problem, but over 500w it can be a much bigger issue. Plus, the fact that it has rather poor ripple suppression suggests to me that there is a very real concern in regard to the probable rapid destruction of connected hardware. I won't be recommending them, unless, like I said, there is very clear and contrary evidence by an unbiased third party. Since I don't have the means, or the knowledge, to do in depth reviews of power supplies I have to take those who do at their word except when there is clear evidence to the contrary that a unit which was not hand picked did not exhibit the same issues.

It is well within the ATX spec and thus will not destroy connected hardware, either rapidly or slowly. That's just baseless fearmongering.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Nothing uses -12V anymore, though. Not that I know of, even though it's still in spec. It'll probably be removed like -5V was eventually.

Units like the CX450M and CX550M should be comparable. If they're the same platform they'll have similar performance. Usually only differ by a few components.

 

[Someone Somewhere]

PCI sockets require -12V to be compliant. Cheap boards still sometimes have those. Some people still use them.

RS232 requires -12V. That's still very common in industrial applications, and most boards still have a COM header even if there isn't a port.

I wouldn't be surprised if it stays on until ATX itself bites the dust.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Right but in normal consumer desktop PSUs most of the time it's unused because people aren't plugging in anything that uses it in the first place.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I'm holding off on responding for now, but never fear, I'll be along shortly. I don't much like being called a fearmonger either, just for forming an opinion off of someone else's review. I'm not terribly sensitive to insults, so there is that, but it still seems like a direct personal attack in my opinion.

That's a separate issue than the potential for damage from excessive ripple though, wherever it may be.

 

[gendalf]

I've searched for maybe 10 of the PSUs on the list and they're all 140$+ 750W+.. I think most people, me included, need something budget for a gtx1050 to gtx1060 level gpus and pentium to low end i5 cpus. Would be nice to see prices and watts of the PSUs on the list.

 

[jankerson]

We know, based on what Aris has said during some of his reviews, that below 500w it's not as much of a problem, but over 500w it can be a much bigger issue. Plus, the fact that it has rather poor ripple suppression suggests to me that there is a very real concern in regard to the probable rapid destruction of connected hardware. I won't be recommending them, unless, like I said, there is very clear and contrary evidence by an unbiased third party. Since I don't have the means, or the knowledge, to do in depth reviews of power supplies I have to take those who do at their word except when there is clear evidence to the contrary that a unit which was not hand picked did not exhibit the same issues.

I don't normally recommend the CXM's except in cases were the person is looking for the cheapest PSU and even then I still check for deals on better units before posting. I really have a hard time recommending budget units for higher draw machines.

That and it seems there are more CX issues coming on the boards as time goes on, granted they are Green labeled units......

What is interesting is Corsair changed their TX550M dropping the AMPS and Wattage on the 12V+ from 540w to 516w so I am rethinking that one also and recommending the TX650M instead. Then recommending the Seasonic G-550W or Focus+ for the 550W units.

 

[ko888]

... What is interesting is Corsair changed their TX550M dropping the AMPS and Wattage on the 12V+ from 540w to 516w so I am rethinking that one also and recommending the TX650M instead. ...

The same thing happened with the TX650M. The discontinued TX650M (OEM: CWT) +12V rail was rated at 54 Amps. The new TX650M (OEM: Great Wall) +12V rail is rated at 51 Amps.

 

[jankerson]

... What is interesting is Corsair changed their TX550M dropping the AMPS and Wattage on the 12V+ from 540w to 516w so I am rethinking that one also and recommending the TX650M instead. ...

The same thing happened with the TX650M. The discontinued TX650M (OEM: CWT) +12V rail was rated at 54 Amps. The new TX650M (OEM: Great Wall) +12V rail is rated at 51 Amps.

I don't know what they are doing....

 

[Karadjgne]

Copying Delta? Adding a redundancy factor maybe. Taking a 60A capable rail, claiming 51A so those that insist on pushing the envelope at 50A don't burn out the unit after 18months.

 

[jankerson]

Copying Delta? Adding a redundancy factor maybe. Taking a 60A capable rail, claiming 51A so those that insist on pushing the envelope at 50A don't burn out the unit after 18months.

I prefer not to guess personally.

 

[Karadjgne]

True, but until ppl who actually have a clue tell for certain why Corsair is doing what they are doing, it's all just conjecture anyways. I prefer to think of it as Corsair putting realistic expectations on the label, not theoretical technical ability. A plus in my book.

 

[jankerson]

True, but until ppl who actually have a clue tell for certain why Corsair is doing what they are doing, it's all just conjecture anyways. I prefer to think of it as Corsair putting realistic expectations on the label, not theoretical technical ability. A plus in my book.

At least the TXM are good build quality and not in the budget line so that's good.

 

[Karadjgne]

Yeah, old or new, the TX line has been decent.

 

[jankerson]

Yeah, old or new, the TX line has been decent.

Yeah, the reason why I recommend them, kinda the sweet spot between the budget line and the higher end.

 

[Karadjgne]

Which left me puzzled as to why it was for all intents and purposes discontinued for so many years. You could only find TX and TX2 on places like eBay. Big gap between CX/CS/VS and HX/RM.

 

[jankerson]

Which left me puzzled as to why it was for all intents and purposes discontinued for so many years. You could only find TX and TX2 on places like eBay. Big gap between CX/CS/VS and HX/RM.

Who knows?