Discussion PSU tier list discussion thread

[NightHawkRMX]

I would prefer you to move PSUs with major issues down a tier or so to wherever seems fit. Then star all of these and make sure there is a key that says it has issues.

 

[Juular]

I would prefer you to move PSUs with major issues down a tier or so to wherever seems fit. Then star all of these and make sure there is a key

What do you think would qualify as major issues ?

 

[Darkbreeze]

I feel like i'm talking with the wall honestly.

That's EXACTLY how we feel.

There shouldn't be ANY colors, unless they are related to the efficiency of the unit, and even then maybe it should only be a colored star or some other identifier, not the unit itself. It is just an unnecessary complication when it comes to looking at the list and easily obtaining an idea of how things ranks. Plus, with white versus dark TH theme, some of it might not even be visible at all.

There doesn't need to be extra tiers. Five tiers is already more than there needs to be really, but I'm ok with that. As far as tiering requirements go, we realize that there are a good many things that could raise or lower a unit, but the absolute bottom line is, if a unit NEEDS notations or special colors to indicate it is LESS than other units on the tier because there may be problems with it, then it simply doesn't belong on the same tier as units that DON'T require the same special details. No power supply is perfect, we get that. But some are better than others. Better goes higher. Less better goes lower. It's pretty simply. If a unit has issues that keeps it from being able to be on the top tier then it should go with the units on the tier below it, regardless whether or not IN GENERAL it is a better unit on those lower tiers. There is something that makes it not as good as the A tier units, since you had to make disclaimers for it in the notes, so it simply isn't good enough to be there.

Just because a unit has ZERO ripple (For example only. Yes, we realize there are no zero ripple units out there) that qualifies it for placement on the Tier A yet puts it above some Tier B units in terms of ripple, but it has other problems, means that even though it has better ripple than other tier B units, it still belongs there with them because it is not good enough to be on Tier A because, for example, maybe it has slightly out of spec voltage regulation or whatever it is that it has that was bad enough for you to say "under some circumstances this unit might have problems". Original versions of the Focus units, that wouldn't work right with a lot of graphics cards, might be one example of this. You don't need a NEW tier, you just move the unit to a lower tier. You are too stuck on "We can't put it on the same tier because this has way lower ripple than those Tier B units". Who cares, it's not good enough for Tier A, then it goes to Tier B. Period. You overcomplicate everything about this process with how you are doing things now, and that's great, because it shows a lot of attention to detail, but it is impractical and unnecessary for it to be complicated to THAT level.

 

[Barty1884]

If that someone cannot be bothered to look up at least some info about the PSU they're buying then nothing will make them to do that.

Except referring to any 'tier list' is the research to the average person. There's a mentality shift required, but the average user is not seeking out PSU reviews, that's just the way it is. A tier list should serve as a quick & dirty reference, but you can't really gleam anything out of it quickly.

When the tier list shows PSU #X is Tier A at a glance but then have to x-ref the colour coding, reference a spreadsheet which then links back to reviews of the unit.... I don't see what purpose the list serves to the average user.


I appreciate the ongoing time & effort in compiling and maintaining, but I don't see the use (in it's current state) to the average user, nor do I see any sign of willingness to modify in any way, shape or form (regardless of how complete a recommendation may or may not be).

Let's see, we have green, blue, gray and gold colors there. There are no possible associations with efficiency certification for blue and green. Gray can be barely associated with Platinum\Titanium perhaps but in what universe ? So you're talking about gold specifically (again, i should try to elaborate your suggestions myself for you guys). If we'll replace gold color with say, purple, would be that less confusing ?

Potentially ever so slightly - but the colour scheme is all over the place.

Gold = "Best" ie Blue+. A quality measurement
Yes it's documented etc, but at a glance that should be the end of it. A quantifier of quality, full stop. Yet it's relative to the tier overall.

Green = SFF. A form factor measurement

Blue = Quiet. A noise measurement

Yes, I know Blue/Gold are off the table when it comes to SFF.... but then you're purposely not differentiating between 'good' SFF units and 'meh'?

Gray = Could feasibly be an offshoot of blue, gold or green? So gray could denote a quality or noise concern, or something else entirely?

THEN to pull out one example, you have the older HCG units in gray within Tier D. The only colours denoted are grey (issues) or Green (SFF). By the time you're in Tier D, are there not issues by default?

I feel like i'm talking with the wall honestly.

From reading through the thread, you're far from the only one.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

What do you think would qualify as major issues ?

Well, I guess any issues you think are worth detiering for, maybe not just major issues. I guess this is subjective, but the premise of a tier list is subjective anyhow.

I am not too knowledgable in the topic, but something like out of spec ripple, nonfunctioning protections (g3), crossload, etc. But you have to consider the merits of the PSU as well.

 

[Rogue Leader]

I ask in like third time here already ? Do you think we should split at least tiers A and B to 3 tiers each adding 4 more tiers instead of color coding ? Would be that less confusing ? I feel like i'm talking with the wall honestly.

You're talking to a wall?

I LITERALLY SAID move them to the bottom of the tier and mark them more clearly. Or do SOMETHING to more clearly differentiate them. If you think making an A- Tier is the way to go how about make that suggestion. But you didn't you said NO.

Barty pointed out that your color scheme doesn't make sense. If you find a PSU on the list first you need to notate the color, then look at the color list to see what that color even means, then refer back to a huge spreadsheet to see why its that color.

As mentioned the nature of a tier list is a quick reference especially for people who either can't do the work or don't have the knowledge to. The average user has no idea what ripple is nor do they care or need to care. They want to know is this going to blow up my PC or not, can I overclock to the moon with this or not. And someone who does care isn't using your tier list. They are here, criticizing it.

 

[Elisis]

@Rogue Leader @NightHawkRMX @Barty1884 @Darkbreeze
Your suggestions are quite reasonable. I'll try to at least get them discussed internally between us. Everyone yelling ideas and counter-arguments at each other, like what has been happening recently, does nothing to enact change.

 

[Rogue Leader]

@Rogue Leader @NightHawkRMX @Barty1884 @Darkbreeze
Your suggestions are quite reasonable. I'll try to at least get them discussed internally between us. Everyone yelling ideas and counter-arguments at each other, like what has been happening recently, does nothing to enact change.

Thank you. We look forward to hearing your results.

 

[Juular]

Added a variant implementation of splitting tiers instead of color coding, please cast your vote.

 

[Rogue Leader]

Added a variant implementation of splitting tiers instead of color coding, please cast your vote.

Voted B but why the break between high and normal priority? Those should be in one tier together, IMO. So your breakdown is just A and A-.

 

[Juular]

why the break between high and normal priority?

Because of this ...

You are using colors on PSU names, while PSUs out there have 80+ certs which use similar colors

 

[Rogue Leader]

Because of this ...

Still confusing. What does normal priority and high priority mean? Tier A should be the best PSUs for whatever wattage they are rated at, obviously shifting the ones to A- with specific issues.

It needs to be clearer, or they should all just be Tier A. That is almost as confusing as the arbitrary colors.

 

[Juular]

Still confusing. What does normal priority and high priority mean? Tier A should be the best PSUs for whatever wattage they are rated at, obviously shifting the ones to A- with specific issues. It needs to be clearer, or they should all just be Tier A. That is almost as confusing as the arbitrary colors.

That could be changed, for now i just split off gold and gray colored units into separate tiers. We can for example rename tier A+ to S but then it would stand out because we still have B+ and C+.

 

[Rogue Leader]

That could be changed, for now i just split off gold and gray colored units into separate tiers. We can for example rename tier A+ to S but then it would stand out because we still have B+ and C+.

No definitely don't make it S. I'd almost be ok with color coding gold as the best, to combine high and normal priority. And then low priority remains as units with issues.

 

[Juular]

I'd almost be ok with color coding gold as the best, to combine high and normal priority. And then low priority remains as units with issues.

I don't get you, what's wrong with gray color then ? They clearly stand out, if you have any other units with gold or white colors available you don't even need to look out why they're grayed out, i.e go to spreadsheet, except you find some of them really cheap. We had tier A- before, people were confusing older and newer Focus SKUs for example recommending people FX/FM SKUs linking the tier list as a source not realizing that these are listed in tier A-, not A regular. When they're all in one place like it is now you clearly see them besides each other and which of them are more preferable ...
I'll add a third option for you.

 

[Juular]

Another reason why we moved from tier A- to graying out is that this way we could mark less preferable units for lower tiers too without adding more tiers. Now when we already have these units there the only option would be to add those new tiers.

 

[Rogue Leader]

I don't get you, what's wrong with gray color then ? They clearly stand out, if you have any other units with gold or white colors available you don't even need to look out why they're grayed out, i.e go to spreadsheet, except you find some of them really cheap. We had tier A- before, people were confusing older and newer Focus SKUs for example recommending people FX/FM SKUs linking the tier list as a source not realizing that these are listed in tier A-, not A regular. When they're all in one place like it is now you clearly see them besides each other and which of them are more preferable ...
I'll add a third option for you.

I mean i only said it like 4 times. Break A down to bad and good. I don't know how much clearer I can be. If you want to single out certain PSUs as better then sure bring in the color so someone who looks that far into the details will see it. But in the end if you pick an A PSU no matter the wattage it is good.

You took what I said and made it into multiple levels of A. I (and everyone else) said TWO levels, A and A with problems (aka A-, your gray italics units). This high priority and normal priority breakdown is 2 more levels of confusion.

Looks like type C was what we were expecting. We just wanted to move the problem units out of A. A problem unit should not be listed next to a non problem one.

 

[Juular]

@Rogue Leader You miss that if we have to get rid of gray color then we should do that for all tiers, not only tier A, and that means adding 3 more X- tiers, not only tier A-. Back then when we had only tier A- and didn't have graying out and therefore didn't have grayed out units in tiers B and down we needed some way to signify less preferable units there. We added graying out, and then merged tier A- into tier A too, graying out these units.

 

[Rogue Leader]

@Rogue Leader You miss that if we have to get rid of gray color then we should do that for all tiers, not only tier A, and that means adding 3 more X- tiers, not only tier A-. Back then when we had only tier A- and didn't have graying out and therefore didn't have grayed out units in tiers B and down we needed some way to signify less preferable units there. We added graying out, and then merged tier A- into tier A too, graying out these units.

Well then to make it less formal have Tier A broken down as you have in example C, and then have a sub group (that you don't call A-, just "low priority") with the description that these are normally A rated units but they have certain issues that make them not in the main list. And yes do that for all of them.

 

[Juular]

Well then to make it less formal have Tier A broken down as you have in example C, and then have a sub group (that you don't call A-, just "low priority") with the description that these are normally A rated units but they have certain issues that make them not in the main list. And yes do that for all of them.

That actually would work well even for tier A too, almost painlessly separating meh units from the rest while still not adding new entities to the list. You think i should i replace variant C with this or add it as D lol ?

Spoiler: Preview

Legend :
Green - small form-factor (gold and blue colors are disregarded due to scarcity of SFX PSUs)
Gold - best units in the tier (includes requirements for blue color in tier A)
Blue - quiet operation under moderate load (see detailed requirements in the spreadsheet)

Tier A • High-end units

( multi/single-rail switchable )​

• be quiet! | Dark Power Pro 10 / Pro 11
• Cooler Master | V Platinum 2019 [MPZ]
• Corsair | AXi (<=1500W / 1600W)- RMi - HXi - HX Platinum - Vengeance Silver
• Enermax | Digifanless
• NZXT | E

( multi-rail )​

• Antec | High Current Pro [HCP] Gold / Platinum
• be quiet! | Straight Power 11 Gold / Platinum
• Bitfenix | Formula Gold =>650W [3] - Whisper =>650W [3]
• Deepcool / Gamer Storm | DQ-M
• Enermax | Platimax (1200/1350W) / D.F =>750W - Revolution D.F - MaxRevo
• LEPA | MaxPlatinum
• Wentai | Aidan 1616W

( single-rail )​

• Abkoncore | CR Platinum
• ADATA / XPG | Core Reactor
• Aerocool | Project 7
• Andyson | N - R - PX - TX - GX
• Antec | High Current Gamer [HCG] Gold post 2018 y. [1] / Extreme post 2018 y. [1] - Signature Platinum / Titanium - Edge =>850W
• Asus | ROG Strix post 2018 y. [1] / Thor
• Chieftec / Chieftronic | Powerplay Gold / Platinum - GPS-500C Fanless
• Cooler Master | Masterwatt Maker MiJ - V Gold 2013 [RS] Semi-modular [VSM] / Fully modular - V Platinum 2013 [RSC]
• Corsair | AX Gold / Platinum / Titanium - RMx 2015 / 2018 - RM Gray - SF Gold / Platinum [2]
• Cougar | GX-F (Aurum) - LLC
• Deepcool / Gamer Storm | DQ-M-V2L
• Enermax | Platimax D.F <=600w - Maxtytan
• EVGA | Supernova G2(L) / GS =>850W / GM / P2 / PS / T2 (<=1200W/1600W)
• Fractal Design | ION+ Platinum / SFX Gold
• FSP | Aurum PT / Pro - Hydro G / G Pro / X / PT / PTM
• Gamdias | Astrape P1 - Cyclops X1
• Gigabyte | G750H
• Great Wall | E Gold (Frozen)
• Green | Overclocking DG
• High Power | Super GD
• Huntkey | MVP-G Gold - MVP-P Platinum
• In Win | Premium Basic PB
• Kingwin | Stryker
• Kolink | Continuum C-PL 1500w
• LC Power | LC1200 Platinum
• Micronics | Astro Platinum
• NZXT | C-series - H1
• Phanteks | AMP - Revolt Pro post 2018 y. [1] - Revolt X
• Raidmax | Monster RX-AT
• Riotoro | Enigma G2 post 2018 y. [1]
• Rosewill | Lightning - Silent Night - Quark - Capstone -XXXM / -XXX / -1000-M / G <=750W
• Sama | Forza Titanium
• Seasonic | Focus [1] GX / GM / PX / SGX - Prime Gold / Platinum / Titanium / Fanless PX / Fanless TX / Snow Silent (Gold / Platinum / Titanium) / Airtouch - X Gold / Platinum / Fanless / Snow Silent - Connect -
• Sharkoon | Silentstorm Cool Zero
• SilentiumPC | Supremo FM2
• Silentmaxx | Fanless II
• Silverstone | Strider Gold S 1500w / Platinum PT <=850W - SX-G <=500W - SX-PT - Nightjar SFX-L / ATX (Platinum / Titanium)
• Super Flower | Leadex Gold / Platinum / Titanium / II / III (pre/post 2020 y.) / III (Pro) ARGB - Platinum King - Golden Silent
• Thermaltake | Toughpower GF1 (ARGB) / PF1 ARGB / iRGB Plus (Gold/Platinum/Titanium) / Gold Semi-Modular 1500W / DPS G (Gold / Platinum) / DPS G RGB Titanium <=1250W / Grand Gold / - Smart DPS G Gold X50W
• XFX | Pro Black FM / Limited Edition - XTR =>850W - XTS

( low priority units - minor issues or lack of info )​

• Antec | High Current Gamer [HCG] Gold pre 2018 y. [1] / Extreme pre 2018 y. [1] - Edge <=750W - Truepower Classic
• Asus | ROG Strix pre 2018 y. [1]
• Bitfenix | Formula Gold <=550W [2] - Whisper <=550W [2]
• Cooler Master | Masterwatt Maker - V Gold 2018 [MPY] =>750W
• Corsair | HX Gold 650W
• Delta | GM - GPS-HB
• EVGA | Supernova G3 - GT - NEX-G 1500W / PG 1500W
• FSP | Hydro PTM Pro
• Fractal Design | Edison M
• Gamdias | Kratos P1 Gold
• Gigabyte | XP-M 1200
• Green | Overclocking EVO - High Performance+ - UK+
• In Win | A1 Plus Gold
• Phanteks | Revolt Pro pre 2018 y. [1]
• Riotoro | Enigma G2 pre 2018 y. [1] - Builder 1200w
• Sama | Armor Gold / Platinum - Forza Gold / Platinum
• Seasonic | Focus Gold / Plus Gold / Plus Platinum [1] - G RM - S12G RT - SSP-SFG - SSP-SUG - SSP-RT
• Sentey | Golden Steel GSP-HM V2 1050W
• Silverstone | Strider Gold Platinum PT =>1000W
• Thermaltake | Toughpower Grand Platinum
• XFX | TS Gold - XT Gold - XTR <=750W - XTR2 - XTS2 - XTI
• Xigmatek | Hera Gold - XFP
• Zalman | Acrux Platinum

[1] Seasonic Focus based units made prior to Jan 2018 had incompatibility issues with high transient GPUs like AMD Vega, source. Does not apply to renewed OneSeasonic SKUs and some rebranded units which were released later.
[2] Corsair SF units with LOT codes from 194448* through 201148* potentially have problems, Corsair conducts a voluntary replacement, source.
[3] Bitfenix Formula Gold and Whisper M 450/550W SKUs have just one rail for GPU power cables and trip with high transient power draw GPUs like AMD Vega.[/b][/color]

 

[Darkbreeze]

I don't get you, what's wrong with gray color then ?

Bottom line? Gray is hard to see on some screens depending on the calibration AND may be overlooked entirely. Gray text on a gray background does not work well. Just because it looks ok on your screen does not mean it looks good or can even be seen on all screens. And, I would highly recommend that when choosing ANY customizations such as color that you try both the default and the dark TH theme's to make sure that it still looks ok and is visible. Some colors, when you switch to the dark theme or visa versa if you've designed USING the dark theme, are not going to be visible or obvious.

And that's just ONE aspect of that. The other aspect is, people tend to overlook text that is near the color of the background as unimportant, even when not doing so intentionally. It's really unfortunate that we don't have more formatting options for posts and the ability to allow users some form of no comments without having to have a moderator lock and unlock the thread, but it is what it is. I want to get with community and see if there is anything we can do on any of those fronts but I'm not particularly hopeful.

 

[Juular]

The other aspect is, people tend to overlook text that is near the color of the background as unimportant

I mean, that's the very purpose of gray coloring of the units, they're low priority.

PS: Okay, i'll just add an option D i guess.

 

[Rogue Leader]

That actually would work well even for tier A too, almost painlessly separating meh units from the rest while still not adding new entities to the list. You think i should i replace variant C with this or add it as D lol ?

Spoiler: Preview

Legend :
Green - small form-factor (gold and blue colors are disregarded due to scarcity of SFX PSUs)
Gold - best units in the tier (includes requirements for blue color in tier A)
Blue - quiet operation under moderate load (see detailed requirements in the spreadsheet)

Tier A • High-end units

( multi/single-rail switchable )​

• be quiet! | Dark Power Pro 10 / Pro 11
• Cooler Master | V Platinum 2019 [MPZ]
• Corsair | AXi (<=1500W / 1600W)- RMi - HXi - HX Platinum - Vengeance Silver
• Enermax | Digifanless
• NZXT | E

( multi-rail )​

• Antec | High Current Pro [HCP] Gold / Platinum
• be quiet! | Straight Power 11 Gold / Platinum
• Bitfenix | Formula Gold =>650W [3] - Whisper =>650W [3]
• Deepcool / Gamer Storm | DQ-M
• Enermax | Platimax (1200/1350W) / D.F =>750W - Revolution D.F - MaxRevo
• LEPA | MaxPlatinum
• Wentai | Aidan 1616W

( single-rail )​

• Abkoncore | CR Platinum
• ADATA / XPG | Core Reactor
• Aerocool | Project 7
• Andyson | N - R - PX - TX - GX
• Antec | High Current Gamer [HCG] Gold post 2018 y. [1] / Extreme post 2018 y. [1] - Signature Platinum / Titanium - Edge =>850W
• Asus | ROG Strix post 2018 y. [1] / Thor
• Chieftec / Chieftronic | Powerplay Gold / Platinum - GPS-500C Fanless
• Cooler Master | Masterwatt Maker MiJ - V Gold 2013 [RS] Semi-modular [VSM] / Fully modular - V Platinum 2013 [RSC]
• Corsair | AX Gold / Platinum / Titanium - RMx 2015 / 2018 - RM Gray - SF Gold / Platinum [2]
• Cougar | GX-F (Aurum) - LLC
• Deepcool / Gamer Storm | DQ-M-V2L
• Enermax | Platimax D.F <=600w - Maxtytan
• EVGA | Supernova G2(L) / GS =>850W / GM / P2 / PS / T2 (<=1200W/1600W)
• Fractal Design | ION+ Platinum / SFX Gold
• FSP | Aurum PT / Pro - Hydro G / G Pro / X / PT / PTM
• Gamdias | Astrape P1 - Cyclops X1
• Gigabyte | G750H
• Great Wall | E Gold (Frozen)
• Green | Overclocking DG
• High Power | Super GD
• Huntkey | MVP-G Gold - MVP-P Platinum
• In Win | Premium Basic PB
• Kingwin | Stryker
• Kolink | Continuum C-PL 1500w
• LC Power | LC1200 Platinum
• Micronics | Astro Platinum
• NZXT | C-series - H1
• Phanteks | AMP - Revolt Pro post 2018 y. [1] - Revolt X
• Raidmax | Monster RX-AT
• Riotoro | Enigma G2 post 2018 y. [1]
• Rosewill | Lightning - Silent Night - Quark - Capstone -XXXM / -XXX / -1000-M / G <=750W
• Sama | Forza Titanium
• Seasonic | Focus [1] GX / GM / PX / SGX - Prime Gold / Platinum / Titanium / Fanless PX / Fanless TX / Snow Silent (Gold / Platinum / Titanium) / Airtouch - X Gold / Platinum / Fanless / Snow Silent - Connect -
• Sharkoon | Silentstorm Cool Zero
• SilentiumPC | Supremo FM2
• Silentmaxx | Fanless II
• Silverstone | Strider Gold S 1500w / Platinum PT <=850W - SX-G <=500W - SX-PT - Nightjar SFX-L / ATX (Platinum / Titanium)
• Super Flower | Leadex Gold / Platinum / Titanium / II / III (pre/post 2020 y.) / III (Pro) ARGB - Platinum King - Golden Silent
• Thermaltake | Toughpower GF1 (ARGB) / PF1 ARGB / iRGB Plus (Gold/Platinum/Titanium) / Gold Semi-Modular 1500W / DPS G (Gold / Platinum) / DPS G RGB Titanium <=1250W / Grand Gold / - Smart DPS G Gold X50W
• XFX | Pro Black FM / Limited Edition - XTR =>850W - XTS

( low priority units - minor issues or lack of info )​

• Antec | High Current Gamer [HCG] Gold pre 2018 y. [1] / Extreme pre 2018 y. [1] - Edge <=750W - Truepower Classic
• Asus | ROG Strix pre 2018 y. [1]
• Bitfenix | Formula Gold <=550W [2] - Whisper <=550W [2]
• Cooler Master | Masterwatt Maker - V Gold 2018 [MPY] =>750W
• Corsair | HX Gold 650W
• Delta | GM - GPS-HB
• EVGA | Supernova G3 - GT - NEX-G 1500W / PG 1500W
• FSP | Hydro PTM Pro
• Fractal Design | Edison M
• Gamdias | Kratos P1 Gold
• Gigabyte | XP-M 1200
• Green | Overclocking EVO - High Performance+ - UK+
• In Win | A1 Plus Gold
• Phanteks | Revolt Pro pre 2018 y. [1]
• Riotoro | Enigma G2 pre 2018 y. [1] - Builder 1200w
• Sama | Armor Gold / Platinum - Forza Gold / Platinum
• Seasonic | Focus Gold / Plus Gold / Plus Platinum [1] - G RM - S12G RT - SSP-SFG - SSP-SUG - SSP-RT
• Sentey | Golden Steel GSP-HM V2 1050W
• Silverstone | Strider Gold Platinum PT =>1000W
• Thermaltake | Toughpower Grand Platinum
• XFX | TS Gold - XT Gold - XTR <=750W - XTR2 - XTS2 - XTI
• Xigmatek | Hera Gold - XFP
• Zalman | Acrux Platinum

[1] Seasonic Focus based units made prior to Jan 2018 had incompatibility issues with high transient GPUs like AMD Vega, source. Does not apply to renewed OneSeasonic SKUs and some rebranded units which were released later.
[2] Corsair SF units with LOT codes from 194448* through 201148* potentially have problems, Corsair conducts a voluntary replacement, source.
[3] Bitfenix Formula Gold and Whisper M 450/550W SKUs have just one rail for GPU power cables and trip with high transient power draw GPUs like AMD Vega.[/b][/color]

THAT is perfect. Make it Option C

 

[Juular]

THAT is perfect. Make it Option C

Too late, vote D.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I like option B better, but that's just me, and now we're getting into personal preference versus just not doing things that aren't intuitive or make sense. Being fair to you and to the concept of easily differentiating between things, B, C OR D would all "make sense" and would eliminate the issues we've been discussing. However, and don't get me wrong because it's great that there is some momentum on corroboration at all, these are almost peripheral issues to the reasons for why a unit doesn't make a certain tier or some units being where they shouldn't be at all.

One step at a time though I guess.