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2 things:
First the T5400 would be much more suitable as the T7400 isn't necessary. This would save about $200.
Secondly, no one with any idea buys a dell from their website. You call and talk to a rep and you get about 20-30% off the price listed on the web. Can you do that with apple? I don't know.
First the T5400 would be much more suitable as the T7400 isn't necessary. This would save about $200.
Secondly, no one with any idea buys a dell from their website. You call and talk to a rep and you get about 20-30% off the price listed on the web. Can you do that with apple? I don't know.
neiroatopelcc
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@sandbags - are you sure you're sane? Have a coffee, and get your hands away from that keyboard! Perhaps even try to re-read the articles, the comments and your own remarks. Then come back and tell me you're sane!
a $550 computer is a back to school system. I work at a place where we educate people. Granted they're 16+ when they come here, but it's still education. In january I did a survey of the ~400 pc's I'm in charge of, and more than 60% of them were over 5 years old. They're dead slow BUT they're still working quite well for what we need. They do run office 2007, they do run windows xp and internet explorer 7 as well as the majority of custom software we have. I doubt that a 4th grade kid needs a better system than an electrician or a wielder (doing cad drawings on an athlon 1700+ with a geforce 4mx and 512mb memory).
Also I happen to know A LOT of people who're finding their discount pc's with onboard gma965 chips or x200 chips satisfactory for their internet and media needs.
It's not that we don't have powerful pcs, we just don't have them where we don't need them. So everything simple runs on athlons or p4's and the powerful stuff runs on c2d or pentium dualcores with geforce 6600gt or better cards. (technical drawings, animated gearboxes in inventor etc)
As for your defending of the previous articles - I don't think you read them very well. Either that, or you don't realize that server components do not perform according to their pricing thus making xeons and ecc memory a waste of money, since any non mac would run just fine on commodity hardware at half the cost.
a $550 computer is a back to school system. I work at a place where we educate people. Granted they're 16+ when they come here, but it's still education. In january I did a survey of the ~400 pc's I'm in charge of, and more than 60% of them were over 5 years old. They're dead slow BUT they're still working quite well for what we need. They do run office 2007, they do run windows xp and internet explorer 7 as well as the majority of custom software we have. I doubt that a 4th grade kid needs a better system than an electrician or a wielder (doing cad drawings on an athlon 1700+ with a geforce 4mx and 512mb memory).
Also I happen to know A LOT of people who're finding their discount pc's with onboard gma965 chips or x200 chips satisfactory for their internet and media needs.
It's not that we don't have powerful pcs, we just don't have them where we don't need them. So everything simple runs on athlons or p4's and the powerful stuff runs on c2d or pentium dualcores with geforce 6600gt or better cards. (technical drawings, animated gearboxes in inventor etc)
As for your defending of the previous articles - I don't think you read them very well. Either that, or you don't realize that server components do not perform according to their pricing thus making xeons and ecc memory a waste of money, since any non mac would run just fine on commodity hardware at half the cost.
hardwarekid9756
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Mac probably won't release anything below "Upper-market" enthusiast. It just detracts from their image too much. Their tech-support is already overwhelmed by the deluge of new market share they're receiving, and adding to this flood a cascade of "Where's my 'start button'" converts is going to do nothing for this. In addition, Mac's perceived "upper-level computing" image will be further tarnished. Mac releasing anything lower than E7000/8000/Q6000/Q9000 level performance in the CPU range is a trivial hope. Apple makes "exclusive" products. You're either "in on Mac" or your not. Apple uses the "cult" appeal because it makes them huge "in-crowd" customer numbers.
The Mac-pro is specced for "Professional-end Graphics editing." That's why it is so "limp" on 3-D performance. the ONLY business sector Mac has cornered is Graphic design. Whether it's because of those same "in-crowders" just so happening to be Graphic designers or the performance is actually superior is up in the air, heavily debated and really benchmark specific, but this is their market, and they'll be damned if they spit in their faces.
Expecting a "Mid-range Mac Pr " called just a plain "Mac" is like hoping for a fair political race. I'd like it, because it'll give Mac a little bit of the proverbial humble pie (Once mac enters mainstream, there's no turning back, and they're gonna have viral strikes, vulnerability exploits, and the world's microscope scrutiny will be cast onto it, the same as Windows and every other market-dominant player), but it's just not feasible business-wise. The margins are razor-thin, the cost of training "geniuses" and expanding their production/support base to accommodate the main-stream (which they obviously showed they failed at with the huge iPod fault rates, glitchy problems, and the "Best Buy" crutch), not to mention the re-tooling of their advertising push, and the potential to lose a lot of sale to "in-crowders" not feeling "in" anymore. It's just not going to happen.
The Mac-pro is specced for "Professional-end Graphics editing." That's why it is so "limp" on 3-D performance. the ONLY business sector Mac has cornered is Graphic design. Whether it's because of those same "in-crowders" just so happening to be Graphic designers or the performance is actually superior is up in the air, heavily debated and really benchmark specific, but this is their market, and they'll be damned if they spit in their faces.
Expecting a "Mid-range Mac Pr " called just a plain "Mac" is like hoping for a fair political race. I'd like it, because it'll give Mac a little bit of the proverbial humble pie (Once mac enters mainstream, there's no turning back, and they're gonna have viral strikes, vulnerability exploits, and the world's microscope scrutiny will be cast onto it, the same as Windows and every other market-dominant player), but it's just not feasible business-wise. The margins are razor-thin, the cost of training "geniuses" and expanding their production/support base to accommodate the main-stream (which they obviously showed they failed at with the huge iPod fault rates, glitchy problems, and the "Best Buy" crutch), not to mention the re-tooling of their advertising push, and the potential to lose a lot of sale to "in-crowders" not feeling "in" anymore. It's just not going to happen.
As much as I agree with you that fanboyism is what has contributed to rendering most of upstairs mostly unreadable and it should be exposed, it really is going over everyone's head.
Besides, it's just said to watch these articles pop up that are so poorly researched, written, and seemingly unedited. I'm not railing on Tuan here in particular (although he has contributed his share), just in general; I mean how about the SSD gem (which got quoted by everyone and their mother; although it has exposed them idiot hacks - my favorite one is Harris of ZDNet; a rare moron), the Atom consumption, half the RAID articles. It is just said, really.
It's not about comparable hardware, it's that if someone that wants a decent Windows PC they can spend less then what it would cost to get the Apple PCs only Desktop configuration. How many normal users are going to spend $2500 on a Desktop to surf the internet. I know the iMac is a choice for that, but for some they still want a tower.
[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]Understood. There's definitely concern there. I assure you that there is work being done to update all the charts. We're moving to a new charting system that's considerably more powerful than the one in use, where when you click on a bar related to a specific device, it'll link you to the article associated with that device.@ALL: In general, I am definitely stepping up here publicly to say sorry for the mess. Everyone's learning I think. I read through all the comments (crazy!) and learned a thing or two at the very least, myself. I'll follow up with a deeper, more balanced look at the different platforms, which will come up soon. We're attempting to get in the latest Apple units, requesting similar systems from system builders, and then building our own. We'll run some concrete benchmarks using the latest games as well as system tests to show raw numbers and let the benchmarks do the talking (no, really! )Then we'll try to build a standard PC with matching hardware and install Leopard on it, and see which delivers better numbers for the best value.I think that should help reshape things./ Tuan[/citation]
Yeah I'd definitely like to see that. As I plan on putting OSX on my PC as well. Would be good to see some concrete numbers....
Yeah I'd definitely like to see that. As I plan on putting OSX on my PC as well. Would be good to see some concrete numbers....
killian101
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No1sFanboy
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@Tuan
You've taken some serious heat since the 4th and stepping back up with the other point of view takes some stones; good job.
Your execution may still be off but I think the direction you are going is well placed. With Apples greater market share, ongoing frustration with MS os's and the blurring between the hardware it would be wrong for this community to ignore the Macs.
I like the idea of a Hackintosh piece, maybe a how to. I'm in no hurry to buy any of their hardware but I'd set aside a partition or drive to try out OSX. I know several people who swear by Apple, I usually just politely smile at them like a I would a misguided child, but I really should at least see what all the fuss is about.
You've taken some serious heat since the 4th and stepping back up with the other point of view takes some stones; good job.
Your execution may still be off but I think the direction you are going is well placed. With Apples greater market share, ongoing frustration with MS os's and the blurring between the hardware it would be wrong for this community to ignore the Macs.
I like the idea of a Hackintosh piece, maybe a how to. I'm in no hurry to buy any of their hardware but I'd set aside a partition or drive to try out OSX. I know several people who swear by Apple, I usually just politely smile at them like a I would a misguided child, but I really should at least see what all the fuss is about.
LAN_deRf_HA
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- Nov 24, 2006
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I just sold a $550 dollar desktop that plays Crysis on max settings @ 1024x768 between 15-35 fps. I made a $150 profit. These price comparison's are a joke. Not to mention the tom's $500 dollar gaming rig shit.
Sounds to me like somebody at Tom's told one of it's contributing writers that it was time to regain some credibility. I will still never own a computer (PC or MAC) that I haven't built myself. I despise Apple's whole(holyier than thou) marketing attitude. They are only catering to paople that think they are better than everybody else and want their computer to reflect that. MACS have strengths and weaknesses just like PCs do. The only difference is you're stuck with dealing with Apple for the rest of the time you own the box which only runs about 10% (my estimate) of the world's software. Apple computers are a joke, IMHO.
Can you buy a $2800 mac and upgrade the graphics card with a 4870 or gtx280? It has a pci express slot right?
Why do Macs still have to have Mac versions of add on cards, when MACs are now using Intel chips?
Why do Macs still have to have Mac versions of add on cards, when MACs are now using Intel chips?
theLaminator
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Nice Tuan, I've read the other articles and comments (rather death threats) that came from them. I must agree it took balls to do what you've done here. I myself do not care for OSX, maybe it could meet my needs and maybe its not that much more expensive than my Windows system but i need the compatability of Windows. To the guy talking about shotty tech support from Dell Sony etc...If you need tech support constantly and if you're doing things to make you're PC crash and cause your frustration I don't blame you for getting a Mac. I haven't had a problem out of my Window's box that I couldn't fix myself in a matter of seconds (Ctrl+Alt+Del) though.
Great rebuttle Tuan!!!
Great rebuttle Tuan!!!
I'll just modify my previous comment on the "Mac cost misconception" to make it clear how come Mac is 2x more money for the same hardware/software, or more than 4x less value for the same amount of money.
I'll just use original Croatian prices this time (kn=croatian kuna; currently 1$ US = 4,67 kn).
Cheapeast Mac is iMac, 20", 2.4GHz CPU, 1GB RAM, 250GB HDD, HD 2400XT, 8x DVD-RW, nothing added - here is direct link - http://store.apple.hr/IMC-Apple-Store/WebObjects/Asto.woa/1/wo/P5Y9Bc7ggV0e3Z7dIt9tWg/2.9.1.6.0.0.1.0.1.0.1.7.1.0.1.1.0.1.2.1.0.1.7.1.3.1
COST: 8349,00kn + keyboard with Croatian layout another 409kn = 8758kn
this iMac here - http://store.apple.hr/IMC-Apple-Store/WebObjects/Asto.woa/1/wo/Sd80KXslJVgoi5EGpTRIC0/2.9.1.6.0.0.1.0.1.1.1.7.1.0.1.1.0.1.2.1.0.1.7.1.3.1 is next in lineup, and it with croatian keayboard costs 11268kn
My custom build #1 (performance):
Monitor Samsung 24" SM245B+, 1920x1200 - 2805kn
Logitech X-540 speakers - 636kn
ATI HD4870 card - 1755kn
E8400 CPU (3GHz) - 999kn
Intel P45 MBO (MSI Neo) - 645kn
4x 1GB DDR 800 - 4x 116kn = 464kn
case with 250mm fans, APLUS CS-3060 Xclio II - 399kn
550W Chieftec PSU with tripple 18A rails and dual PEG connectors (great for HD4870 and E8400 plus a niiiice overclocking headroom) - 460kn
LG 20x DVD-RW/DVD-RAM, Dual layer, super-multi whatever - 146kn
Logitech MX518 mouse - 222kn
Logitech G15 keyboard - 533kn
2x 640GB WD drives - 2x 482kn = 964
Vista Home Premium 32bit - 767kn
Accelero S1 heatsink - 160kn
Thermalright Ultra Extreme 120 - 380kn
4x HiperFlow 120mm fan - 4x 39kn = 156kn
--
Total 11491 kn
So comparing to the second iMac:
24" display vs 20"; 3,0GHZ vs 2,66GHz; 4GB RAM vs 2GB; 1280GB vs 320GB; 20x DVD vs 8x; HD4870 vs HD2600PRO; 5.1 speakers vs stereo; MX518 vs MightyMouse; G15 vs Apple keyboard
..and don't forget I've included enough cooling to have PC on 4GHz and HD4870@850/1100
In the end, just fire up this PC and that second iMac, and you'll get 4x more performance, 4x storage space, much better audio, bigger screen, better keyboard and mouse.. overall - PC will eat iMac for breakfast. That's what you get for the same amount of money.
If I want a PC that compares to iMac by the components (hardware) here it is!
For the price of cheaper Mac (8758kn) I can get 767kn Vista, 150kn keyboard, 150kn mouse, 269kn HDD, 143kn optical, 150kn case with PSU, 150kn speakers, 116kn RAM, 330kn G31 MBO, 518kn CPU, 212kn 2400XT but with 256MB RAM, and even same as above Samsung 24" LCD - TOTAL: 5755kn. So this iMac is easily 1,5x more money than comparable PC.
Very next iMac which I've used above is already 11268kn and to get my PC up to same specs I just have to spend 428kn more for faster CPU, another 116kn for more RAM, just 70kn more for bigger HDD, and 40kn more for VGA - though I can get newer VGA models for even less money. So while my PC gets just 654kn more expensive and going up to total of 6409kn, iMac gets whooping 2510kn more expensive for these additions. Now I'm already at 1,75x the PC price.
And if you want even better iMac model - more of the price advantage PC gets.
Note, these two are cheapo iMacs, without any options what-so-ever (except for Croatian keyboard layout that you really need in Croatia). So I haven't used any options like bigger HDD or more RAM. So go figure..
Btw, all these iMacs are worthless IMHO, cos they are very unbalanced (200$ CPU with 50$ VGA, 50$ VGA with 1920x1200 resolution, underpowered DVD burner, smallish disk drive etC), especialy for the price you pay. These are usefull, and "balanced", only for watching DVD movies.
That's my.. a lot of cents.
I'll just use original Croatian prices this time (kn=croatian kuna; currently 1$ US = 4,67 kn).
Cheapeast Mac is iMac, 20", 2.4GHz CPU, 1GB RAM, 250GB HDD, HD 2400XT, 8x DVD-RW, nothing added - here is direct link - http://store.apple.hr/IMC-Apple-Store/WebObjects/Asto.woa/1/wo/P5Y9Bc7ggV0e3Z7dIt9tWg/2.9.1.6.0.0.1.0.1.0.1.7.1.0.1.1.0.1.2.1.0.1.7.1.3.1
COST: 8349,00kn + keyboard with Croatian layout another 409kn = 8758kn
this iMac here - http://store.apple.hr/IMC-Apple-Store/WebObjects/Asto.woa/1/wo/Sd80KXslJVgoi5EGpTRIC0/2.9.1.6.0.0.1.0.1.1.1.7.1.0.1.1.0.1.2.1.0.1.7.1.3.1 is next in lineup, and it with croatian keayboard costs 11268kn
My custom build #1 (performance):
Monitor Samsung 24" SM245B+, 1920x1200 - 2805kn
Logitech X-540 speakers - 636kn
ATI HD4870 card - 1755kn
E8400 CPU (3GHz) - 999kn
Intel P45 MBO (MSI Neo) - 645kn
4x 1GB DDR 800 - 4x 116kn = 464kn
case with 250mm fans, APLUS CS-3060 Xclio II - 399kn
550W Chieftec PSU with tripple 18A rails and dual PEG connectors (great for HD4870 and E8400 plus a niiiice overclocking headroom) - 460kn
LG 20x DVD-RW/DVD-RAM, Dual layer, super-multi whatever - 146kn
Logitech MX518 mouse - 222kn
Logitech G15 keyboard - 533kn
2x 640GB WD drives - 2x 482kn = 964
Vista Home Premium 32bit - 767kn
Accelero S1 heatsink - 160kn
Thermalright Ultra Extreme 120 - 380kn
4x HiperFlow 120mm fan - 4x 39kn = 156kn
--
Total 11491 kn
So comparing to the second iMac:
24" display vs 20"; 3,0GHZ vs 2,66GHz; 4GB RAM vs 2GB; 1280GB vs 320GB; 20x DVD vs 8x; HD4870 vs HD2600PRO; 5.1 speakers vs stereo; MX518 vs MightyMouse; G15 vs Apple keyboard
..and don't forget I've included enough cooling to have PC on 4GHz and HD4870@850/1100
In the end, just fire up this PC and that second iMac, and you'll get 4x more performance, 4x storage space, much better audio, bigger screen, better keyboard and mouse.. overall - PC will eat iMac for breakfast. That's what you get for the same amount of money.
If I want a PC that compares to iMac by the components (hardware) here it is!
For the price of cheaper Mac (8758kn) I can get 767kn Vista, 150kn keyboard, 150kn mouse, 269kn HDD, 143kn optical, 150kn case with PSU, 150kn speakers, 116kn RAM, 330kn G31 MBO, 518kn CPU, 212kn 2400XT but with 256MB RAM, and even same as above Samsung 24" LCD - TOTAL: 5755kn. So this iMac is easily 1,5x more money than comparable PC.
Very next iMac which I've used above is already 11268kn and to get my PC up to same specs I just have to spend 428kn more for faster CPU, another 116kn for more RAM, just 70kn more for bigger HDD, and 40kn more for VGA - though I can get newer VGA models for even less money. So while my PC gets just 654kn more expensive and going up to total of 6409kn, iMac gets whooping 2510kn more expensive for these additions. Now I'm already at 1,75x the PC price.
And if you want even better iMac model - more of the price advantage PC gets.
Note, these two are cheapo iMacs, without any options what-so-ever (except for Croatian keyboard layout that you really need in Croatia). So I haven't used any options like bigger HDD or more RAM. So go figure..
Btw, all these iMacs are worthless IMHO, cos they are very unbalanced (200$ CPU with 50$ VGA, 50$ VGA with 1920x1200 resolution, underpowered DVD burner, smallish disk drive etC), especialy for the price you pay. These are usefull, and "balanced", only for watching DVD movies.
That's my.. a lot of cents.
I definitly read the article yesterday, what really bothered me about the article was the extreme bias in favor of macs, which generally people who use their mac's love them. The very first page of the article comparing a $2000 15" macbook, to a $2000 17" XPS. I never got why you would compare a 15" to a 17", the 17" macbook starts at 800 dollars more than the 15".
All that aside, opinionated articles do nobody any good, esspecially when facing a comunity so biased against macs, and who know BS when they see it. The new article you speak of, please, make it really apples to apples. Dont go putting a 15" macbook running in 1680X1050 with an 8600gt up against a 17" pc at 1920X1200 with an 8400 or you will have the same flameage that you saw yesterday.
All that aside, opinionated articles do nobody any good, esspecially when facing a comunity so biased against macs, and who know BS when they see it. The new article you speak of, please, make it really apples to apples. Dont go putting a 15" macbook running in 1680X1050 with an 8600gt up against a 17" pc at 1920X1200 with an 8400 or you will have the same flameage that you saw yesterday.
ThePatriot
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TEAMSWITCHER
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I had a different take on the article than most of the fanboys who troll this forum. Comparing the average selling prices is not a direct feature-vs-feature and price-vs-price comparison. It's the average selling price of all the desktops or notebook computers sold in a given month.
These numbers do not paint a rosy picture for the Windows PC market. What these numbers say to me is that there are a huge number on Windows PC users that are buying entry level desktops and laptops. That's right - slow processors, Intel integrated graphics with shared memory, and small hard drives.
No wonder the PC game industry is in decline, the Windows computers that most people are buying can't run them. Software developers take note, Windows users like cheap hardware and if you want to sell software to the masses, you better make sure that it runs well on ho-hum system specs.
These numbers are not a healthy indication of the superior Windows market share but a sad, sad revelation that the average Apple Macintosh computer is more capable, than the average Windows Vista computer.
Maybe it is time to switch?
These numbers do not paint a rosy picture for the Windows PC market. What these numbers say to me is that there are a huge number on Windows PC users that are buying entry level desktops and laptops. That's right - slow processors, Intel integrated graphics with shared memory, and small hard drives.
No wonder the PC game industry is in decline, the Windows computers that most people are buying can't run them. Software developers take note, Windows users like cheap hardware and if you want to sell software to the masses, you better make sure that it runs well on ho-hum system specs.
These numbers are not a healthy indication of the superior Windows market share but a sad, sad revelation that the average Apple Macintosh computer is more capable, than the average Windows Vista computer.
Maybe it is time to switch?
cliffro
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Ok I did something different, I took a Mac Pro and made 1 downgrade and then upgraded the rest(Dual Quad is hard to find elsewhere) And Upgraded an HP d5000t
So the Mac has no monitor and only 1 QC 2.8ghz Xeon and a comparable Video Card(actually quite affordably priced too)
The thing really killing Mac Pro prices is the FB-DIMM RAM. which is still overpriced. It was a piddly $200 to go from 4gb to 8gb with the HP
versus 1,000 on the Mac.
So the Mac has no monitor and only 1 QC 2.8ghz Xeon and a comparable Video Card(actually quite affordably priced too)
The thing really killing Mac Pro prices is the FB-DIMM RAM. which is still overpriced. It was a piddly $200 to go from 4gb to 8gb with the HP
versus 1,000 on the Mac.
Fightaddict
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I noticed someone mentioned WoW as a solid game for the Mac. You may want to mention the other 4 games for the Mac. I'm sure the other cultists here would like to know about these gems =)
trenchdog73
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