System Builder Marathon: $2,500 Enthusiast PC

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Three GTX 260 Core 216s beat two GTX 280s and four HD 4870s except under a few odd circumstances.[/citation]
So? They just got snuffed-out like paperless foreigners in what was supposed to be a harmless pr0n flick by two 4870X2s at 25 x 16 in Crysis. In the “enthusiast” build, I’d like to see the top dogs, not a few scraggly mutts with mange and worms, thanks.

Most enthusiasts use 24" displays. Most people with $2500 systems use 24" displays.

Correction: most enthusiasts USED 24” displays. The new standard is 30” for “enthusiasts” whether you like it or not. I have a 1080p HDLCD I hooked my rig into and I can’t even pretend I’m on top of the heap these days. A little depressing, but true.

And most people with $2,500 systems are currently thinking about how to get their hands on a 30” and another 4870X2. Might as well go the extra mile. And for the last time, I don’t think $2,500 systems have any business whatsoever masquerading as “enthusiast” systems. Price-caps aren’t fair when you want/need the best. If Thomas was so adamant about using the 260s, he should’ve only used two with a cheaper CPU and labeled it a mid-range PC. I have no idea why you keep trying to defend the choices of this month’s “high-end” machine.

That's a nice convergence that makes 2560x1600 as irrelevant in the $2500 PC market as RAID 5 is in the gaming system market.

Fine. As long as you can admit that the $2,500 PC market isn’t anywhere close to the true “enthusiast” market I think I may be able to agree with you on that one. But I’ll say this: it would be really weird to spend $2,500 on a machine that stops just short of what gamers really want… which is why I have problems with this month’s “high-end” build.

No matter how much you howl and squirm under the spotlight, the fact is that “enthusiasts” want to play Crysis cranked up at 25 x 16 on a 30”. This month’s “high-end” SBM utterly fails in that regard and I can’t help but wonder why Thomas even bothered…

 

[cangelini]

SirSuper,

If you really want to get technical, enthusiast *ends* with 25x16, unless you know of a higher-res display we can test on?

When I was in college and could only afford a Pentium II 266 that I took up to 450 MHz, I still considered myself an enthusiast. I loved hardware, wasn't afraid to tweak it, and read a long list of tech sites in my free time. THAT's enthusiast to me. What you're talking about, IMHO, is having a lot of money.

We have great fun benchmarking the latest hardware in extreme configurations--not sure if you saw the i7 launch piece I did with 1, 2, 4 RV770s and 1, 2, 3 GT200s--but I don't think those types of setups define enthusiast. My preferences gravitate towards the high-end because the hardware is accessible to me and the rest of the staff. At the same time, it's important to remember that $500 for 80GB of ultra-quick storage is still $500.

Hopefully you enjoy forthcoming ultra high-end stories and bear in mind the intent of anything else that zeroes in on optimizing for value at the same time =)

 

[Aviking]

Overall great article. It's certainly true that you can't please everyone, and I guess no point in really trying.

While I'm sure there are some people out there that will spend WAY more for a negligible increase in performance, in my experience I've found that people with money got that way because they understand value as well.

Will some people want to double the cost of the system for another FPS or two, maybe? But I agree that the more interesting point is how you can get a faster system because you waited two months, and still save 2k.

For those that are complaining of course when you buy your system feel free to upgrade from the 260 to the 280. No one stopping you.

Finally agreed with those that mentioned we would rather see 6gb. If that's what you would recommend, then that's the system you should build.

Thanks again for the great article.

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]cangelini[/nom]If you really want to get technical, enthusiast *ends* with 25x16, unless you know of a higher-res display we can test on?[/citation]
Lets get technical then:

Enthusiast: One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what engages it.

Would someone “whose mind is wholly possessed” with PC hardware set their sights on anything but the best? Of course not, and you know this. “Enthusiast” starts AND ends with 25 x 16 for this reason. Who the hell could get “enthusiastic” about spending $2,500 on something that’ll ALMOST get them what they want!? Check yourself.

When I was in college…

Fascinating. No really, it is. But to make a long story short, your definition of “enthusiast” needs more tweaking than a socket 478 system trying to play Crysis maxed out.

My preferences gravitate towards the high-end because the hardware is accessible to me and the rest of the staff.

Your preferences gravitate towards the high-end because that’s what the readers are here to learn about. Spare me the nostalgia of dead or dying platforms and I’ll spare you the indignity of correcting your loose grasp of the language we speak.

bear in mind the intent of anything else that zeroes in on optimizing for value at the same time

Optimizing for value!? After the rubbish system that just passed for December’s “high-end” rig? Hah! Good one.

The third 260 was a complete waste and you know it. Tomorrow’s price/performance round-up will prove that conclusively. You guys could’ve done much better at the $2,500 price-point and leaps-and-bounds-better in the “enthusiast” department.

Just do better next time…

 

[cangelini]

Check yourself.

...classy.

Fascinating. No really, it is. But to make a long story short, your definition of “enthusiast” needs more tweaking than a socket 478 system trying to play Crysis maxed out.

Huh? Where do you get Socket 478? Here. I'll make your long story short. You're calling out every enthusiast who can't afford the best of the best by saying if they were really enthusiasts, they'd have 30" screens, SSDs, and $500 video cards.

I'm a car enthusiast, too. Are you going to tell me that because I don't have a Ferrari in the garage that I need to come up with a new classification for myself?

Your preferences gravitate towards the high-end because that’s what the readers are here to learn about. Spare me the nostalgia of dead or dying platforms and I’ll spare you the indignity of correcting your loose grasp of the language we speak.

I enjoyed computer hardware long before I was writing about it. But what's this about dead or dying platforms? Loose grasp of the language? I'm sorry, I was under the impression we were having a civilized debate. Thank you for the feedback. Take care,

Chris

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]SirSuperSouthern[/nom]The third 260 was a complete waste and you know it.[/citation]

Actually, These Guys know just the opposite. These Guys know that three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards beat two GTX 280's at everything except the 2560x1600 resolution. You know, the uber-high resolution that nobody uses except you...and you know it.

 

[V3NOM]

wtf. thats the most ridiculous parts choice i have seen yet..

 

[Onus]

SSS, any number of us may disagree with choices made in THG articles, but you're the first I've seen stoop to such vituperative personal attacks over it. You didn't define "enthusiast," by the way (Chris did, and nicely), you defined "snob." I don't see how you're happy here, so maybe you'd be better off sauntering away; your shell must get awfully cold when you let all that smugness out.

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]cangelini[/nom]You're calling out every enthusiast who can't afford the best of the best by saying if they were really enthusiasts, they'd have 30" screens, SSDs, and $500 video cards.[/citation]
And here I was beginning to think you were stupid… silly me. You are correct, I label “enthusiasts” as people who either have, are in the process of getting, or who REALLY want the above mentioned items as “enthusiasts”. Correct me if I’m wrong. I guess the confusion arises when you guys falsely label a mid-range PC as “Enthusiast” in your SBM title… /SPANK!

I'm a car enthusiast, too. Are you going to tell me that because I don't have a Ferrari in the garage that I need to come up with a new classification for myself?

Yeah… you’re just another fan of high performance engines, join the club. You may be really enthusiastic about high performance cars, but until you get one you’re just another dreamer whose tastes outweigh their wallet. But lets keep this apples-to-apples, shall we?

what's this about dead or dying platforms?

Hey pal, last I checked you’re the one crooning about his college days… what frat did you rush? Hahaha… just kidding!

Loose grasp of the language?

You don’t seem to fully grasp the meaning of the word “enthusiast”, so I have my doubts. I’m sure you understand.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression we were having a civilized debate.

Tell it to your snide pal Crashman, who’s been slangin’ misinformation like it was crack in an in-care drug rehab. Or keep playing the victim, doesn’t matter to me. I could go on, but Tweedle-Dumb has posted and I’ll finish up with him…

 

[coopchennick]

Just to break things up a bit...

It will be interesting to see how the price/performance figures are affected when the GTX 295 becomes more available. If they are ~500 each then two of those could be slapped into this system instead of the 3 260s and still be right around the budget mark for this build.

I guess I'll have to wait for next month...

 

[Crashman]

Tell it to your snide pal Crashman, who’s been slangin’ misinformation like it was crack in an in-care drug rehab. Or keep playing the victim, doesn’t matter to me. I could go on, but Tweedle-Dumb has posted and I’ll finish up with him…

Wow, that really proves it then: You're obviously dillusional. Because I've been completely honest and straightforward, which is why you're laying on the ground gasping for air and whimpering "but as soon as I get up, I'll finish him off!"

And about your automotive analogy: I'm sure many Porche drivers would love to hear you tell them they're not true enthusiasts simply because they don't own a Ferrari /SPANK!

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]These Guys know that three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards beat two GTX 280's at everything except the 2560x1600 resolution.[/citation]

THW unreasonably decided to cap the “enthusiast” rig at $2,500. Then, they tried to assemble the best bang-for-buck at that range while comparing it to a two month old system.

The problem is this: THW is looking two months back and claiming that three… THREE… 260s can beat 2 4870X2s at undesirable resolutions while simultaneously asserting that their build is best bang-for-buck at the moment. This is egregious money mis-management.

In another few months the next line of cards will come out. The mid-high range product will probably be slightly more effective than all 3 crappy 260s, leaving the buyer of this month’s rig as sad as that kid who got an Xbox box filled with cloths for Xmas.

Why couldn’t you guys either nix the top-end cap or just come out and recommend the “enthusiast” wait a few more months for the next round of cards that will come out with 2GB on-board RAM so they could game at 25 x 16 WITHOUT hemorrhaging the costs of THREE mid-high range GPUs???

I feel bad for the noob who actually reads this round of articles and copies the “enthusiast” rig under the misimpression that he’s making informed choices. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves this month.

You know, the uber-high resolution that nobody uses except you...and you know it.

Cute, I’ll remember you said that

I honestly can’t wait for you to try your snide roll to commenter’s in the coming months after that one, brains…

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]coopchennick[/nom]It will be interesting to see how the price/performance figures are affected when the GTX 295 becomes more available. If they are ~500 each then two of those could be slapped into this system instead of the 3 260s and still be right around the budget mark for this build. I guess I'll have to wait for next month...[/citation]
Screw the 295. Wait a few more months for the 3-series, the mid-high card will dust the 295 probably two-fold. The guys here at THW have great hindsight, but for some odd reason their foresight is nonexistent. How could anybody possibly justify buying 3 mid-high cards in a “best bang-for-the-buck” build? Impossible.

Imagine yourself coming back to THW and reading the new round of benchmarks after buying 3 260s. You’d be crushed, just like your over-priced “enthusiast” rig that THW recommended just a couple months ago. Decimating.

I’ve come to rely on THW benchmarks and advice, but this month’s “high-end” system was cooked by a tard and slathered in noob-sauce…

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]SirSuperSouthern[/nom]How could anybody possibly justify buying 3 mid-high cards in a “best bang-for-the-buck” build? Impossible.[/citation]

Because you're the idiot, not them. Three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards outperform two 4870 X2's at all the resolutions that matter, and even outperform two GTX 280's by around 10%.

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom] I've been completely honest and straightforward[/citation]
You’re an unapologetic company-man who feels the need to defend bad advice – its that simple. I say that as a compliment, the alternative is that you’re a clueless noob who has no business posting here.

The assertion that purchasing 3 GPUs is good bang-for-the-buck is insulting. The whole point of this month’s comparison to October’s is the value that can be had now compared to back then. Its unconscionable to recommend/defend the idea of buying 3 mid-high range cards now when everybody knows that the 3-series cards are due out in less than 6 months. Why would you wanna do that to anybody?

And about your automotive analogy: I'm sure many Porche drivers would love to hear you tell them they're not true enthusiasts simply because they don't own a Ferrari /SPANK!

Nice one, you pedantic company-man, but two can play that game. When Chris said “Ferrari”, he was making a generalization to top-brand cars. Porche drivers are “enthusiasts” because they… stay with me now… OWN a top flight car. Its like they have a couple 280s instead of 4870X2s. That makes them… stay with me now… “enthusiasts”. They put their money where their mouth is.

Now look at you and Chris. You guys are rollin’ in tricked-out Hyundai’s tryin’ to high-side on people at stop lights blasting Vanilla Ice and smiling with fake gold teeth. Its just as sad as it sounds.

It’s cool though, tomorrow’s wrap-up will prove me right if THW is still to be trusted…

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Because you're the idiot, not them.[/citation]
Yeah? Well at least I wont be the tard stuck with three 260s when the 3-series cards come out, complete with 2GB on-board RAM which will actually make 25 x 16 PLAYABLE! I’d hate to be the sad guy trying to pawn those slugs off on someone at a fraction of what I paid for them when, in a few months, I could upgrade to something that could actually handle 25 x 16… HAW HAW!!!

Three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards outperform two 4870 X2's.

There you go spewing misinformation again. Funny thing is that the benchies JUST proved that 3 260s couldn’t even eek out a single FPS on Crysis @ 25 x 16.

Put your stumpy, Doritos’s caked fingers in your ears and sing LALALALA all you want, 25 x 16 is the new watermark for “enthusiasts”. Your Ritalin-boy routine won’t work on me. 260s can’t hang with 4870X2s due to their lack of on-board RAM and its speed, your own benchies proved that.

I gotta tell ya, I’ve seen you correct many people here before when I wasn’t paying much attention. But now that I see you’re just another clueless can’t-be-wrong, even when you clearly are, I’ll never take anything you have to say seriously again. I’m sure being a company-man has its perks, but you’re embarrassing yourself…

 

[Guest]

would it be better if using Sunbeamtech Core-Contact Freezer as the CPU cooler? just my opinion though.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]SirSuperSouthern[/nom]When Chris said “Ferrari”, he was making a generalization to top-brand cars. Porche drivers are “enthusiasts” because they… stay with me now… OWN a top flight car. Its like they have a couple 280s instead of 4870X2s. That makes them… stay with me now… “enthusiasts”.[/citation]

Ahah, but that's where you prove yourself wrong. Three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards beat two 280's. And they cost less. Which means they're a better value. You've so much as admitted it, but you'll figure out a dishonest way to weasel out...in an effort to support your extremely narrow viewpoint in an extremely broad enthusiast market.

 

[Crashman]

would it be better if using Sunbeamtech Core-Contact Freezer as the CPU cooler? just my opinion though.

Possibly. At the beginning of the month Newegg only carried two LGA-1366 coolers though, and the one used here was the big one.

 

[zodiacfml]

this will never end.
enthusiast, simply, is love of the hardware.
it may be someone lapping heatsinks or someone buying a system all money he can.
SirSuper, the simple limitation of THG in this build is maximize the given budget, as though someone gave them money and then spend it all they can. if you're given a chance to have that money to build a box today and you're not allowed to keep the change, how would you build it?
so the option to wait for new video cards and non-available parts is not possible.

they made a good build except for my personal preference for a non raid system, dual channel 4 GB DDR3 or 6GB triple channel DDR3.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]zodiacfml[/nom]this will never end. enthusiast, simply, is love of the hardware.it may be someone lapping heatsinks or someone buying a system all money he can.SirSuper, the simple limitation of THG in this build is maximize the given budget, as though someone gave them money and then spend it all they can. if you're given a chance to have that money to build a box today and you're not allowed to keep the change, how would you build it?so the option to wait for new video cards and non-available parts is not possible.they made a good build except for my personal preference for a non raid system, dual channel 4 GB DDR3 or 6GB triple channel DDR3.[/citation]

Many appologies for the 3GB, it was only done for software support.

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

Heh, nice catch. A bit overly-pedantic and completely beside-the-point, but when you're clinging to straws you don't have the luxury of worrying about whose lips were just on them, do you?

Three GTX 260 Core 216 graphics cards beat two 280's. And they cost less. Which means they're a better value.

Fascinating. Tell me, Crashed, which gets more FPS in Crysis @ 25 x 16? The 0… ZERO… FPS the 3 260s got, or the black screen two 280s gives you? Take your time, champ, I hate bothering people when they’re running numbers.

you'll figure out a dishonest way to weasel out...in an effort to support your extremely narrow viewpoint in an extremely broad enthusiast market.

Dishonest? Last I checked, YOU were the one defending the purchase of 3 $200+ cards that will be out-dated in a matter of months by a product capable of attaining the level of performance “enthusiasts” desire.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]SirSuperSouthern[/nom]Last I checked, YOU were the one defending the purchase of 3 $200+ cards that will be out-dated in a matter of months by a product capable of attaining the level of performance “enthusiasts” desire.[/citation]

Yes sir! And then those will be outdated in months. And the ones that beat them will be outdated in months. Heck, we might as well be using X1800's, those were high-end too!

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

SirSuper, the simple limitation of THG in this build is maximize the given budget, as though someone gave them money and then spend it all they can. if you're given a chance to have that money to build a box today and you're not allowed to keep the change, how would you build it?

I would take the well-meaning do-gooder to the side and explain very gently that right now is simply not the right time to go big on a system… the hardware isn’t here yet. Unless you’re still using an old Dell or something equally helpless, you can make it a few more months before selling your soul.

Crysis is like Doom 3 when it came out. Sure, you COULD buy 2 top-end GPUs, but you’ll regret it sooner than you think. Even worse it the thought of buying 3 mid-high cards at retail months after they’ve been out. Nobody is going to want to buy them once they see how inferior they are to the new line, happens every cycle.

so the option to wait for new video cards and non-available parts is not possible.

But it is! There are actually many PC parts that aren’t ready yet, besides GPUs. First off, the current line of LGA 1366 mobos is preliminary, a real socket is coming out for the i7s in a few months. Zalman will have a proper fan for them once they do. SSDs are still a bit high. Phenom IIs aren’t out yet, but will be very shortly. And the current line of GPUs are crippled by their lack of on-board RAM.

Tragic, really.

they made a good build

No son, they didn’t. This is THW and the bar has been set. I expect far more, and when the going gets tough in times such as these, I expect them to give solid advice, which they didn’t. The thing to do now is wait, lame as it sounds. The next jump will be worth it, but paying $200+ per card to run games at 19 x 12 is unreasonable and it is my sincere hope that the guys at THW recognize this in their final shake-down…

 

[SirSuperSouthern]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Yes sir! And then those will be outdated in months. And the ones that beat them will be outdated in months. Heck, we might as well be using X1800's, those were high-end too![/citation]
The sarcasm is unnecessary. We both know that the 2-series is winding down… the 295 is the last iteration. So what good would buying 3 of the stinkers be at this point? It’d be like buying a 775 mobo at this point… stupid. Hey, while I’m at it, should I buy some DDR2 RAM?

I’m through arguing with you, and I pray you buy this system spec-for-outrageous-spec. You owe it to yourself…