System Builder Marathon: Day Two

[darklife41]

I'm interested in building this or a similar system and this topic has been really helpful, but I'm wondering about sound. I scanned the whole thread but wasn't able to find anything of substance on the topic. I know next to nothing about on board versus dedicated sound cards, so can anyone enlighten me? For gaming purposes, will on board sound with this motherboard be terrible/sufferable/satisfactory/excellent? What about for watching DVD's or other high end video? Any help would be appreciated.

I run a 5.1 Creative Cambridge Soundworks 500w speaker system. This is a pretty high end system.

In my opinion Gigabyte and Intel onboard HD sound is top notch, and you probably won't notice any difference between them and a top of the line sound card (Creative X-Fi) for gaming and music.

I think Asus onboard sound leaves a lot to be desired (distortion at higher volumes and the bass is weak).

I can't really speak for other brands as we haven't bought any other brand recently.

If you're running a 2.1 speaker system, any onboard sound will be pretty good to excellent.

 

[RigorVK]

Thanks for the response. I've got the older 5.1 Logitech Z-640 setup (http://www.techwarelabs.com/reviews/audio/logitech_z640/). Think that'll work well with the Intel motherboard described in the mid-range system?

 

[darklife41]

The board on the mid-range system is an MSI board. My guess is that it'll be fine, but if not you can easily add a sound card later on.

 

[spiralsun1]

The one SUPREMELY IMPORTANT factor everyone seems to be overlooking, near as I can tell, is the LONGEVITY of the system.

You can pay 500.00 for a budget system that might run all the games you want now, but in a year nothing coming out will run on it.

I found that spending more on a system now with an eye to the future actually saves money in the long run. Spend for a mid-to-high range system and you will be able to use it for years longer!

That budget system guy will be buying 2-3 machines in that time and the old machines will be unuseable.

I buy higher-end, then still use the old machines when I upgrade networked for halo, etc. with the neighborhood kids (and my kids). because their performance is still acceptable. Once in a while I slap in a new video card too.

In the long run, this is your best bet. You can buy an older processor now for less money, then upgrade, or you can buy the higher priced processor now instead of waiting and spend the same amount as the 2 chips and have higher performance the whole time!!! Same goes for the video cards.

You need to consider the time factor -- the longevity of the system -- in your "bang per buck". Buy better stuff less often or buy lower-end stuff more often is the question.

 

[magreen]

What do you mean it saves you money in the long-run? Let's say you bought a computer two years ago. You made it mid- or high-end... you bought a Pentium 4 3.4 GHz with HT, you bought 1 GB of DDR2 533, a 160GB 7200RPM HD, and a midrange video card. You paid $1200.

For $600 you could have gotten a P4 2.4GHz, 512 MB of DDR mem, an 80GB hard drive, and onboard video and an AGP slot.

Today two years later, both systems are very low-end and can run approx. the same applications. Maybe slap in a $70 AGP video card in the low-end and it can run the same games the higher-end one can run. Or $35 for another GB of memory. Or $40 for another 80 GB hard drive, much faster than the one you could have bought two years ago.

Neither system can hold a candle to today's C2D or X2 systems. That higher-end system does not last you significantly longer. There are no apps it can run that the lower-end one can't run... they'll both feel sluggish. In another year or two, both will be obsolete.

The reason to buy a higher-end machine is if you need more computing power now, not for your needs 3 years from now.

 

[darklife41]

If you're talking about components that fail early, the only component that I think this applies to is the motherboard. Cheap motherboards don't always last long. Then again, top of the line motherboards don't seem to last much over a year either.

I'd stay somewhere in the middle to higher end if you expect a motherboard to last a long time.

Don't think for a second that the most expensive video cards are going to last longer. (I've had 3 high end vid cards die in my own systems in the past 18 months, 2 x 6800U and 1 7900GTX this year.)

What a person spends on a video card really depends upon what they need to do with it.

I can't think of CPU, RAM, hard drives that this would apply to as we've had very few come back for repairs on these components regardless of the price. These components tend to last forever or die early without rhyme nor reason.

And as I've mentioned, we've had some very good luck with very cheap PSU's for the past few years.

 

[zenmaster]

If you're talking about components that fail early, the only component that I think this applies to is the motherboard. Cheap motherboards don't always last long. Then again, top of the line motherboards don't seem to last much over a year either.

What are you doing to your systems that your Mobos don't last much over a year?

I don't recall the last time I saw a MB fail except when reasons are obvious? Lightening Strikes, Cheap PSU fries components in the sytem, etc... etc...

Now a Good Mobo with nice capacitors will help, but even cheap motherboards should be fine for over a year.

In the past 1-2 years I've give away about 4-5 Systems ranging from 466Mhz to 1.2Ghz. All built with cheap parts from PSU to Mobo and had been in use for a number of years.

I'm not suggesting to not pay a $10 premium for the DS3 over an S3 for better capacitors and other items. Rather that failure to do so is far from a recipe for disaster in a year.

Perhaps you have power issues in your home or from your electrical provider. Perhaps a line conditioner would be a good investment for you.

 

[zenmaster]

If you're talking about components that fail early, the only component that I think this applies to is the motherboard. Cheap motherboards don't always last long. Then again, top of the line motherboards don't seem to last much over a year either.

What are you doing to your systems that your Mobos don't last much over a year?

I don't recall the last time I saw a MB fail except when reasons are obvious? Lightening Strikes, Cheap PSU fries components in the sytem, etc... etc...

Now a Good Mobo with nice capacitors will help, but even cheap motherboards should be fine for over a year.

In the past 1-2 years I've give away about 4-5 Systems ranging from 466Mhz to 1.2Ghz. All built with cheap parts from PSU to Mobo and had been in use for a number of years.

I'm not suggesting to not pay a $10 premium for the DS3 over an S3 for better capacitors and other items. Rather that failure to do so is far from a recipe for disaster in a year.

Perhaps you have power issues in your home or from your electrical provider. Perhaps a line conditioner would be a good investment for you.

 

[darklife41]

If you're talking about components that fail early, the only component that I think this applies to is the motherboard. Cheap motherboards don't always last long. Then again, top of the line motherboards don't seem to last much over a year either.

What are you doing to your systems that your Mobos don't last much over a year?

I don't recall the last time I saw a MB fail except when reasons are obvious? Lightening Strikes, Cheap PSU fries components in the sytem, etc... etc...

Now a Good Mobo with nice capacitors will help, but even cheap motherboards should be fine for over a year.

In the past 1-2 years I've give away about 4-5 Systems ranging from 466Mhz to 1.2Ghz. All built with cheap parts from PSU to Mobo and had been in use for a number of years.

I'm not suggesting to not pay a $10 premium for the DS3 over an S3 for better capacitors and other items. Rather that failure to do so is far from a recipe for disaster in a year.

Perhaps you have power issues in your home or from your electrical provider. Perhaps a line conditioner would be a good investment for you.

I don't think 4-5 systems is enough to have an informed opinion. You couldn't have tried 1 of every brand at that rate, let alone the different models of each brand.

As system builders we don't sell cheap motherboards or use them ourselves and we've not had a single one of our motherboards fail to date (knock on wood). Our boards are either Intel or Gigabyte medium to high range.

As repairers, about 70% of the repairs we've done in the past 3 years have been replacing cheap motherboards while every other component was fine. Motherboard brand names that top the list of failures are MSI and Asus. Micro boards seem to have a much higher failure rate than full sized, but we've also replaced many full sized cheaper boards where chipset seems to be a big factor as well with SIS being by far the worst.

The other 30% of repairs have been on various components. AMD CPUs come in at 15%, while the rest of the components make up the remaining 15%.

My experience is based on 100s of systems per year. But if you think saving a few bucks is worth the gamble, by all means go for it.

 

[sojrner]

I think his point is that if you want to stay near the curve of good performance on new games, then you save money in the long run as you don't buy as often. A low end system now might do acceptable on current games, but fail at games even 2 months from now. If you want to stay current you have to do a massive upgrade. The high end guy does not.

In the situation you describe, arguments on how equal they are aside... you are right. If you don't plan to stay on the curve then you save money on the cheap one.

 

[darklife41]

I think his point is that if you want to stay near the curve of good performance on new games, then you save money in the long run as you don't buy as often. A low end system now might do acceptable on current games, but fail at games even 2 months from now. If you want to stay current you have to do a massive upgrade. The high end guy does not.

In the situation you describe, arguments on how equal they are aside... you are right. If you don't plan to stay on the curve then you save money on the cheap one.

Good catch Sojrner. Reading back, it appears that I missed his point completely. Ooops!

 

[magreen]

I think his point is that if you want to stay near the curve of good performance on new games, then you save money in the long run as you don't buy as often. A low end system now might do acceptable on current games, but fail at games even 2 months from now. If you want to stay current you have to do a massive upgrade. The high end guy does not.

In the situation you describe, arguments on how equal they are aside... you are right. If you don't plan to stay on the curve then you save money on the cheap one.

Right, I think I agree with you. That's more or less what I meant when I said the reason to buy a high-end machine is if you need the power now (i.e. in the next few months), not 3 years from now.

Basically, my point is this: A high-end and low-end system will generally perform in the same league... the high-end machine might be up to twice as fast. Yet their prices are not in the same league. 3 years from now the performance difference between that high-end and that low-end system is fairly negligible compared to the difference between today's average system and the average system three years from today.

 

[GeorgeH]

"Yesterday we built and tested a low cost PC system for $525. Today we focus on a mid-range [mid-cost] system that costs around $1,255."

One should really ...

Set performance goals, select components expected to achieve those goals, benchmark to demonstrate that the goals are reached, and let the price fall where it does.

(Giving prices is mostly worthless. By the time you get to print the prices are very wrong.)

As I recall in your low-cost:

You compare the prices of CPUs of various speeds and make the claim that a 40% price difference is not worth it. If one compares the prices of the complete system for CPUs of various speeds, a different conclusion might be reached.

 

[VFighterX]

You can build a nice system even with around $800. Just takes patience and careful shopping. 8)

 

[Doug]

I am having trouble getting the Cooler Master Hyper TX2 installed.
I can't get all four of the locking pins to lock at the same time.
Has anyone encountered this problem and found a solution? I would love to hear it! Thanks, Doug