TECH: Bally Capt Fantastic Score Wheel Start-up Problem

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

New to the group and was pointed here on a recommendation that this is
where the serious pin talk goes down. I will try to be clear, but my
apologies in advance for my neophyte pin knowledge.

I recently FOUND (as in for FREE) a super condition Captain Fantastic in
the trash (full gory details on my blog
http://hooptyrides.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_hooptyrides_archive.html) and
have been tinkering with it ever since. The EM guide on pinrepair has
been fantastic.

It is a great shape and looks to have been in a home for long time and
also, not working for a long time. During the start-up sequence, there
were a couple score wheel solenoids that were locked up tight. I took
those apart, cleaned them up and they are working correctly.

To set the stage, it powers up, lights up, the fuses are good, the coin
switch cycles the credit wheel and the start button removes a credit and
starts the start-up sequence.

Now, when I start a game, the Score Reset Relays (both, 1 and 2) do not
stop cycling and the score motor does not stop turning. If I cycle any
of the score reels manually, they all run through the cycle back to
display zero. Also, when I cycle a score wheel, I can see an associated
blue spark on the score relay contacts.

I have cleaned the 0,9,EOS switches with 400 sand paper. Also, I cleaned
the contacts on the switches to the head with 400 sandpaper.

Also, a couple times, after those relays chattered and the score motor
rotated for several minutes, the game was ready and I was able to play.

My questions:

Does this sound like a problem with the 0,9 or EOS switch contacts? The
switch relays?

What relay or solenoid is 'signaled' when the score wheels have been
cycled correctly?

Is this a problem with the score motor?

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote :

>"Now, when I start a game, the Score Reset Relays (both, 1 and 2) do not
stop cycling and the score motor does not stop turning."

So do you mean that the score reels all reset to zero position or do they
not? If not, it sounds like the score reels switches (stack on top and the
EOS switches) may need adjusting and cleaning on the reels that aren't
restting to zero position. If the reels don't turn freely you'll need to
disassemble & clean them. (This is pretty tedious on a 4 player game but
rewarding once done. I just finished a Capt. Fantastic myself). Also a good
idea to clean the switches and make sure they're adjusted properly on the
two score reel reset relays in the back box.

>"If I cycle any of the score reels manually, they all run through the cycle
>back to
display zero."

Does it then complete the reset sequence and start a game? If not what's it
do?

Let us know and we may be able to assist. Really nice find by the way!

- Steve B.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I agree sounds like a misadjusted eos switch on a score reel. or a
score reel not making home.

Ctsteps5

owner of
71 Bally Expressway, 72 Williams Superstar,
74 Williams Star Pool, 75 Gottlieb Fast Draw.
68 Williams Student Prince

Moderator of EM Pinball Group
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/empinbalmachines/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Check the switch on the bonus counter under the PF on the right. There
are two sets of contacts and make sure they are closing when the
counter resets. Don

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Steve B." <flippers*no*spam*@sashimi.org> wrote in
news:ffOdndW8XoVuGJ_eRVn-sg@comcast.com:

> "Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote :
>
>>"Now, when I start a game, the Score Reset Relays (both, 1 and 2) do
>>not
> stop cycling and the score motor does not stop turning."
>
> So do you mean that the score reels all reset to zero position or do
> they not? If not, it sounds like the score reels switches (stack on
> top and the EOS switches) may need adjusting and cleaning on the reels
> that aren't restting to zero position. If the reels don't turn freely
> you'll need to disassemble & clean them. (This is pretty tedious on a
> 4 player game but rewarding once done. I just finished a Capt.
> Fantastic myself). Also a good idea to clean the switches and make
> sure they're adjusted properly on the two score reel reset relays in
> the back box.


The score wheels do correctly reset to show a score of 00000 for all
players. Some of the reels DID have a problem turning freely, but I took
those apart, cleaned em up and they now work fine.

I cleaned the contacts on the score relays and to test them, I cycled
every score wheel and watched the associated blue spark. The relays seem
to be doing their job.


>>"If I cycle any of the score reels manually, they all run through the
>>cycle back to
> display zero."
>
> Does it then complete the reset sequence and start a game? If not
> what's it do?
>

It does not complete the reset sequence and start game. The score motor
just keeps running and the both score relays keep cycling.

I hear you guys re: EOS and 0/9 switch. That's what I thought it was
too. I have cleaned them with sandpaper. When the score reads zero and
everything is reset, where should the switches be?

One other thing I noticed, when I start a game, the RESET solenoid
engages and sorta vibrates. If I trip that solenoid manually, the ball
ejector triggers, advances the ball count mechanism 3-4 times and ends
the game. All in about 4 seconds.

I am glad I found it in the trash, but I now know why it was out there!

Thanks a ton, folks. I appreciate the help. It is maddeningly close to
working.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

First, make sure that the ball trough switch is not stuck closed.

Each score reel has a stack of three switches. The top switch on each score
reel stack is the lock-in for the reset relay. It should be open in the
zero position. The middle switch should also be open in the zero position
and it is in-circuit to the step-up coil during reset cycle. The bottom
switch should only be closed in the ninth position.

The EOS switches should be closed when the solenoid is not energized and
open only when the solenoid is energized when the solenoid plunger opens
this switch.

Also check to be sure there are no playfield switches stuck closed.

- Steve B.


"Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96B4BB6D3444Fmisterjalopyhooptyri@69.28.186.121...
> "Steve B." <flippers*no*spam*@sashimi.org> wrote in
> news:ffOdndW8XoVuGJ_eRVn-sg@comcast.com:
>
>> "Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote :
>>
>>>"Now, when I start a game, the Score Reset Relays (both, 1 and 2) do
>>>not
>> stop cycling and the score motor does not stop turning."
>>
>> So do you mean that the score reels all reset to zero position or do
>> they not? If not, it sounds like the score reels switches (stack on
>> top and the EOS switches) may need adjusting and cleaning on the reels
>> that aren't restting to zero position. If the reels don't turn freely
>> you'll need to disassemble & clean them. (This is pretty tedious on a
>> 4 player game but rewarding once done. I just finished a Capt.
>> Fantastic myself). Also a good idea to clean the switches and make
>> sure they're adjusted properly on the two score reel reset relays in
>> the back box.
>
>
> The score wheels do correctly reset to show a score of 00000 for all
> players. Some of the reels DID have a problem turning freely, but I took
> those apart, cleaned em up and they now work fine.
>
> I cleaned the contacts on the score relays and to test them, I cycled
> every score wheel and watched the associated blue spark. The relays seem
> to be doing their job.
>
>
>>>"If I cycle any of the score reels manually, they all run through the
>>>cycle back to
>> display zero."
>>
>> Does it then complete the reset sequence and start a game? If not
>> what's it do?
>>
>
> It does not complete the reset sequence and start game. The score motor
> just keeps running and the both score relays keep cycling.
>
> I hear you guys re: EOS and 0/9 switch. That's what I thought it was
> too. I have cleaned them with sandpaper. When the score reads zero and
> everything is reset, where should the switches be?
>
> One other thing I noticed, when I start a game, the RESET solenoid
> engages and sorta vibrates. If I trip that solenoid manually, the ball
> ejector triggers, advances the ball count mechanism 3-4 times and ends
> the game. All in about 4 seconds.
>
> I am glad I found it in the trash, but I now know why it was out there!
>
> Thanks a ton, folks. I appreciate the help. It is maddeningly close to
> working.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks so much for the assistance! I am getting closer and closer!

> First, make sure that the ball trough switch is not stuck closed.

I disconnected the ball trough switch, just to make sure it was not
closed.


> Each score reel has a stack of three switches. The top switch on each
> score reel stack is the lock-in for the reset relay. It should be
> open in the zero position. The middle switch should also be open in
> the zero position and it is in-circuit to the step-up coil during
> reset cycle. The bottom switch should only be closed in the ninth
> position.
>
> The EOS switches should be closed when the solenoid is not energized
> and open only when the solenoid is energized when the solenoid plunger
> opens this switch.

This solved it! I removed each score wheel and verified the switches
were open in the zero position. Two were closed. I adjusted and that
problem is fixed.

> Also check to be sure there are no playfield switches stuck closed.

I verified, they are ok.

> Check the switch on the bonus counter under the PF on the right. There
> are two sets of contacts and make sure they are closing when the
> counter resets.

The switches are closing. But this is on the right track of my current
problem.

When the game starts, all the score reels cycle and it is ready for
play. But it just advances through all four players, all five balls.

This is the sequence of what is happening, as best I understand it,

- Player Up Unit cycles once for each player
-- 100 is scored
-- chime sounds
-- the ball trough solenoid triggers
-- Player Up Unit cycles to next player

- After four players are up, the Ball Count advances one cycle

- Player Up Unit cycle starts again, same thing for remaining four balls

- At the end, there is 500 points for each player and game over light
comes on. This whole sequence takes about 10-15 seconds.


Other (perhaps) pertinent info:

Bonus Wheel Unit switches are closed when starting.

I have disassembled and cleaned, the Player Up, Ball Count and Bonus
units. The advance solenoids all work and the reset solenoid works. When
the reset is triggered, the contact wheel springs back to home position
without issue

The Bonus Unit solenoid triggers on at the start and HOLDS the entire
time. Gets quite hot. I swapped the solenoid with the same type from the
credit wheel, as I thought it might be bad.

On all units, I have disassembled the solenoids, cleaned them, ground
off any 'mushrooming' and reinstalled. They all seem to be working fine.

Thanks so much in advance. I worked on it all day and thought I was
going to get it, but it is just out of reach!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Check the outhole relay. It really sounds to me like the ball trough switch
is stuck closed or shorted but you disconnected it. So the next step down
the line in-circuit from the ball trough is the outhole relay. Most likely
a normally open switch on this relay is misadjusted and closed.

This would go like this: Game senses ball in trough, scores minimum ball
value (1000 points for the automatic 1000 point bonus), goes to next ball,
repeat balls 2-5 until game over.

But you said 100 points score each time. Are you counting the dummy zero on
the insert board or just the numbers on the score reels?

- Steve B.


"Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96B5C06713FD9misterjalopyhooptyri@69.28.186.121...
> Thanks so much for the assistance! I am getting closer and closer!
>
>> First, make sure that the ball trough switch is not stuck closed.
>
> I disconnected the ball trough switch, just to make sure it was not
> closed.
>
>
>> Each score reel has a stack of three switches. The top switch on each
>> score reel stack is the lock-in for the reset relay. It should be
>> open in the zero position. The middle switch should also be open in
>> the zero position and it is in-circuit to the step-up coil during
>> reset cycle. The bottom switch should only be closed in the ninth
>> position.
>>
>> The EOS switches should be closed when the solenoid is not energized
>> and open only when the solenoid is energized when the solenoid plunger
>> opens this switch.
>
> This solved it! I removed each score wheel and verified the switches
> were open in the zero position. Two were closed. I adjusted and that
> problem is fixed.
>
>> Also check to be sure there are no playfield switches stuck closed.
>
> I verified, they are ok.
>
>> Check the switch on the bonus counter under the PF on the right. There
>> are two sets of contacts and make sure they are closing when the
>> counter resets.
>
> The switches are closing. But this is on the right track of my current
> problem.
>
> When the game starts, all the score reels cycle and it is ready for
> play. But it just advances through all four players, all five balls.
>
> This is the sequence of what is happening, as best I understand it,
>
> - Player Up Unit cycles once for each player
> -- 100 is scored
> -- chime sounds
> -- the ball trough solenoid triggers
> -- Player Up Unit cycles to next player
>
> - After four players are up, the Ball Count advances one cycle
>
> - Player Up Unit cycle starts again, same thing for remaining four balls
>
> - At the end, there is 500 points for each player and game over light
> comes on. This whole sequence takes about 10-15 seconds.
>
>
> Other (perhaps) pertinent info:
>
> Bonus Wheel Unit switches are closed when starting.
>
> I have disassembled and cleaned, the Player Up, Ball Count and Bonus
> units. The advance solenoids all work and the reset solenoid works. When
> the reset is triggered, the contact wheel springs back to home position
> without issue
>
> The Bonus Unit solenoid triggers on at the start and HOLDS the entire
> time. Gets quite hot. I swapped the solenoid with the same type from the
> credit wheel, as I thought it might be bad.
>
> On all units, I have disassembled the solenoids, cleaned them, ground
> off any 'mushrooming' and reinstalled. They all seem to be working fine.
>
> Thanks so much in advance. I worked on it all day and thought I was
> going to get it, but it is just out of reach!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> But you said 100 points score each time. Are you counting the dummy
> zero on the insert board or just the numbers on the score reels?
>


You are right. 1000 points with the dummy reel.I will check the relay.
Thanks again!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Also, how many credits are you putting up? Does it cycle through all 4
players even if you only push the start button once or are you pushing it 4
times? If you're pushing the start button once but it's going through all 4
players as you described I'd also check the 1-4 player stepper unit because
it may not be resetting and likely needs a cleaning too.

- Steve B.

"Mister Jalopy" <misterjalopy@hooptyrides.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96B5CFA45EB5Fmisterjalopyhooptyri@69.28.186.121...
>
>> But you said 100 points score each time. Are you counting the dummy
>> zero on the insert board or just the numbers on the score reels?
>>
>
>
> You are right. 1000 points with the dummy reel.I will check the relay.
> Thanks again!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Mister Jalopy wrote:
> It works! Thanks so much to everybody that helped me out! (Steve, I owe
> you one. Whenever you need bad advice on a creaky old Mercedes, I am
> there!) The full story at hooptyrides.com. This is the Captain Fantastic
> that I found in the trash.
>
> I ended up taking every score wheel out, cleaning the solenoids and
> double checking every switch. This had been messed with before and some
> of the leaf switches were at wacky, non-parallel angles. Even though
> they seemed to be set correctly, I took any suspicious leaf apart and
> re-flattened the blades.
>
> And, I went through the playfield at the same level of detail. Anything
> that looked fishy, I disassembled, straightened out and re-assembled.
>
> The big problem was with the Player Up selector. I had disassembled it,
> lubed with a quarter of a drop of 3-in-1 and reassembled it a couple
> times. Convinced that the problem still was in that mech, I took it
> completely apart one last time. I meticulously cleaned every contact,
> every circuit board contact, every everything with the idea that I was
> re-constructing it as new. If any component was the tiniest bit dirty,
> whether I thought it affected operation or not, I cleaned it with
> toothpicks and q-tips. Also, I used one of the these contact pens
> (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%
> 5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=64%2D4336) on the
> traces.
>
> So, it works! I still have stuff to do, but it basically works. There is
> a loose fuse holder, the playfield needs to be cleaned, the pop-ups are
> unreliable, pressing start always starts two players while subtracting
> only one credit, the flipper solenoids are noisy - but all that is easy!
> That stuff will be done with an order to Marco and a couple more hours.
>
> Thanks again!

Ahhh...it's another EM Bally baby revived and alive. Does my heart
good. Congratulations--you're now an EM mechanic!
Brian Saunders Pinballs of the Past Lerna, Il.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It works! Thanks so much to everybody that helped me out! (Steve, I owe
you one. Whenever you need bad advice on a creaky old Mercedes, I am
there!) The full story at hooptyrides.com. This is the Captain Fantastic
that I found in the trash.

I ended up taking every score wheel out, cleaning the solenoids and
double checking every switch. This had been messed with before and some
of the leaf switches were at wacky, non-parallel angles. Even though
they seemed to be set correctly, I took any suspicious leaf apart and
re-flattened the blades.

And, I went through the playfield at the same level of detail. Anything
that looked fishy, I disassembled, straightened out and re-assembled.

The big problem was with the Player Up selector. I had disassembled it,
lubed with a quarter of a drop of 3-in-1 and reassembled it a couple
times. Convinced that the problem still was in that mech, I took it
completely apart one last time. I meticulously cleaned every contact,
every circuit board contact, every everything with the idea that I was
re-constructing it as new. If any component was the tiniest bit dirty,
whether I thought it affected operation or not, I cleaned it with
toothpicks and q-tips. Also, I used one of the these contact pens
(http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%
5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=64%2D4336) on the
traces.

So, it works! I still have stuff to do, but it basically works. There is
a loose fuse holder, the playfield needs to be cleaned, the pop-ups are
unreliable, pressing start always starts two players while subtracting
only one credit, the flipper solenoids are noisy - but all that is easy!
That stuff will be done with an order to Marco and a couple more hours.

Thanks again!