The 3rd Presidential Debate

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Obama has done a fine job of running this country further into the ground.

I'm all for some hard choices and significant sacrifices if it means getting the country back on track.
 


Any recession leads to an increase in debt, I would say he is responsible for some of it based on measures he took to prevent the economy from bottoming out but he is definitely not responsible for all of it.
 


A housing market on the mend.
Restructuring of financial market.
Revival of Auto Industry.
Consumer confidence on the uptick.
Expansion of unemployment benefits.
Unemployment trending downward.
GDP back into the positive column.

I'm sure im missing some but those are just the ones of the top of my head.
 
How about continued high, unemployment & underemployment? Or, 47 million people on foodstamps? Or, 1 in 6 people living below the poverty level?

For two years, Obama had a super majority in the Congress and instead of focusing on creating jobs, reducing the debt, and reducing the size and scope of the federal government, he instead passed Obamacare, wasted BILLIONS of tax payer dollars of failed stimulus, invested BILLIONS of tax payer dollars into failed green energy companies, and has yet to this day influence the Democrat controlled Senate to vote on (let alone pass and sign) a Federal budget.

For the love of America, if that isn't enough to vote for anyone but Obama, I will never guess what is!
 
I bet your the type who actually believes that repairing the destruction from Hurricane Sandy will actually lead to economic growth. :pt1cable: :ouch:

 


Unemployment is always the last facet of an economy to recover, the economy was in complete recession during Obama's first year in the white house. Since then it has been going down or if we can at least agree its not going up.

"President Bush launched a recruitment campaign, which pushed average participation up by 63% during his eight years in office."

Participation in the food stamp program has been increasing continually before Obama came into office. Not to mention that social programs always experience higher participation during economic downturns or in this case a recession.

How was the stimulus a failure? How can upgrading our infrastructure ever be considered a failure when its cheaper during the recession and provides jobs? How can it be a failure when it played a part in our GDP rising from -8% to now 2%?

I agree that some of the green energy stimulus was wasted, they should of researched the market trends or done something to understand the potential for natural gas prices to push certain green industry to the breaking point. Not all of it was wasted though.

$29 billion for energy efficiency, including $5 billion for improvements in the homes and apartments of low-income households
$21 billion for renewable electricity generation, including wind turbines and solar panels
$10 billion for grid modernization, including millions of “smart meters” that read themselves, eliminating the need for meter readers
$6 billion to help establish factories to make batteries for electric cars and other components of advanced vehicles
$18 billion for fast trains
$3 billion for research and development into capturing and sequestering carbon dioxide
$3 billion for job training and scientific advances in green energy
about $2 billion to help build wind turbines, solar panels and similar “green” products


I can see where your going with this though. Your repeating right wing talking points instead of putting evidence forward to have a real discussion. Obama hasn't been perfect but i doubt few presidents could of achieved what he did given the circumstances.

 
A housing market on the mend. -- On the mend? Where? Housing prices are still low, short sales are still going on, people are filing bankruptcy still. The housing market is just below the mark where it crashed.
Restructuring of financial market. Yes, banks aren't loaning money and high interest rate loan companies are thriving. People can't afford to buy anything, the jobs aren't there.. Excellent.
Revival of Auto Industry. As Jeep is looking towards shifting production from Toledo, Ohio, to China. Kudos.
Consumer confidence on the uptick. No where to go once you hit rock bottom!
Expansion of unemployment benefits. This means jobs aren't coming back!!
Unemployment trending downward. Downward, as in less people with jobs. Forge the numbers all you want, exclude a major state from the last report. Nearly 4 years with unemploy always over 8%!! Horrible.
GDP back into the positive column. GDP numbers can be tweaked as we have previously discussed. It was still lowerer than expected.. while good, still worse than 4 years ago.
 
In his company email, Marchionne confirmed the company’s previous statements that it plans to eventually restart vehicle production in China because the market “would not otherwise be accessible” without making vehicles there. Chinese regulations make it very difficult to import foreign vehicles.
Click to expand...

The "American" Jeep isn't needed in China. Low US sales has stalled the Jeep brand along with low Consumer Report grades. China has a higher demand for Jeep. Production will ramp up in China while the continued decline in the US while remain.
 



Well in 2009 Obama gave GM and by extension Chrysler 80 billion. I guess that doesn't count as a bailout?

The $787 billion economic stimulus package was approved by Congress in February, 2009. Never said anything about TARP.

GM already had a huge influence in China, that is how they are the worlds largest auto maker, by investing is markets all over the world. Chrysler is increasing production in China to MATCH demand in China. It has no bearing on the production or employment here at home. If you bought into that new Romney ad I would recommend fact checking it. You could argue that GM spends more money oversees developing production there but that is correlated to the fact that those markets are not completely saturated and demand for vehicles there is going to grow much faster then here as those countries become more prosperous.

U6 rate counts part time as unemployed, you work 39 hours a week your part time. Got a friend who is a carpenter that would be considered part time even though he is doing fine financially. The u6 rate has been going down(slowly) as well.
 


Riser, you bought into that BS add by Romney? Come onnnnnn man!

In the past few days his running mate, Representative Paul D. Ryan, has accused Mr. Obama of allowing the bailout to bypass nonunion workers at Delphi, a big auto parts maker with operations in Ohio; Mr. Romney has characterized Mr. Obama’s bailout plan as based on his approach; and Mr. Romney incorrectly told a rally in Defiance, Ohio, late last week outright that Jeep was considering moving its production to China. (Jeep is discussing increasing production in China for sales within China; it is not moving jobs out of Ohio or the United States, or building cars in China for export to the United States.)

It is a high-risk strategy: Jeep’s corporate parent, Chrysler, had already released a scathing statement calling suggestions that Jeep was moving American jobs to China “fantasies” and “extravagant”; news media outlets here and nationally have called the Romney campaign’s statements — initially based on a poorly worded quotation from Chrysler in a news article that was misinterpreted by blogs — misleading.

Mr. Obama’s campaign, seeking to maintain what it sees as its advantage in Ohio, responded on Monday by releasing a commercial calling Mr. Romney’s ad false and reiterating that Mr. Romney had opposed the bailout on the terms supported by Mr. Obama. And on Sunday it dispatched the investment banker who helped develop the bailout, Steven Rattner, here to discuss Jeep’s plans and the auto rescue with local news organizations.

Democrats are hoping that Mr. Romney’s latest move will draw a backlash in a city so dependent on Jeep, which has announced plans to add 1,100 jobs to an assembly plant here that is currently being refitted for the next iteration of what is now called the Jeep Liberty.
 
I know how you always say you wont let "Facts dictate your posts" but factcheck.org did a piece on GM and China.

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/is-gm-becoming-china-motors/
 
JEEP SUV production will remain in the US.

Bloomberg's article quoted Jeep's president on what they said, "Considering moving all production to China." Now they're saying Italy.

Psst. I'm from Toledo. Ask me if my neighbors who worked for the UAW ever got their jobs back. Pssst. They didn't.
 


Did you even read the article?

“Since June 2009, the company has announced more than $6.9 billion of investment to upgrade or expand operations in 12 states, creating or retaining more than 17,600 jobs.”

It’s true that GM also has been expanding in China — but that was true long before the bailout. The “old” GM (the one that went bankrupt) was the largest foreign car maker in China in 2008, battling for supremacy there with Volkswagen.

You also understand that if GM expands its operations in China even more(which it is) then there is a chance that the American government could make back all of the bailout and then some?

Another issue raised by the video is the sale of the Saginaw, Mich.-based GM supplier Nexteer to a Chinese firm. But the Wall Street Journal reported in February that the deal has turned out pretty well for U.S. workers: “Today, few people in town are wringing their hands about the Chinese. Inside a 59-year-old factory at Nexteer’s sprawling complex, contractors are ripping out antiquated machine lines and installing new equipment to produce an electronic steering system for the next generation of GM’s large pickup trucks and SUVs. The company, for years known as Saginaw Steering Gear, has hired more than 100 engineers in Saginaw last year and is looking for 80 more this year.”
 
It just seems that we end up with nothing but a whole bunch of back-and-forth with statistics when it comes to Obama's economic record and accomplishments over his past 3+ years; I can appreciate playing the numbers game. All it seems to accomplish though is solidifying pre-existing beliefs and opinions about whether Obama has or has not been a good President.

Arguing over whether using tax payer dollars to bail out GM or letting GM follow the existing bankruptcy laws implies that whatever Obama did follows an "end justifies the means" sense of logic. But using that logic ignores the real issue; the fact that Obama circumvented decades of existing bankruptcy laws to score a political win as a savior of American jobs. What's wrong with saving jobs some might say; legitimate question and there's nothing wrong with saving American jobs. But the travesty about the GM bail out is that it follows a pattern of social democracy where the government takes ownership and controls the means of production. This philosophy is a direct contradiction to American style capitalism. That truth is what does not get advertised is what is largely misunderstood by the majority of Americans. If you asked the average American the simple question, "should the government be in the business of making American cars?", you would hear the simple answer "No". But Obama sold the rhetoric and sold out a little piece of American style capitalism along with it.

It ignores the fact that bailing out GM has left the Treasury Department being unable to sell their remaining 26% stake in GM. If the Treasure sold their 500 million shares of GM at today's prices, the tax payers would lose $15 Billion! But what gets ignored is the $15 Billion loss to the American people is part and parcel of what happens when government controls the means of production. The $15 Billion loss is what happens when government decides what companies are going to win in the market. The $15 Billion loss is the end result of social democracy usurping American style capitalism.

It ignores the fact that Obama circumvented existing bankruptcy laws and and ended up allowing the UAW to recover a much greater portion of the debts than what was owed and ahead of all other unsecured creditors. Please understand what this means, it means that Obama single-handedly decided to put the debts GM owned to the UAW above all other debts GM owned to all other stockholders and bondholders; it put the UAW at the head of the line to collect their money BEFORE all other debtors! That single-handed decision is why Obama deserves to be criticized for bailing out the unions as much as bailing out GM as a whole. On top of that, by bypassing bankruptcy laws, it allowed the UAW to avoid the wage cuts typically associated with bankruptcy protections (which allow a company to mortgage their assets, restructure, not lay off workers, and stay in business) and then Obama gave the UAW membership a 17% ownership in GM with no strings attached! Heck, as a result of the bail out, Obama gave 60% ownership of Chrysler to the UAW! Ultimately what happened is that General Motors no longer employs Union members to make cars, the UAW makes cars to employ dues paying union members! Again, this is what happens when government takes control and maintains the means of production. This is the epitome of a social democracy.

There is enough evidence in the GM bail out to give any reasonable man the information he needs to realize that Obama is not good for the economy. The means do not justify the end if the end is only to score political points and as a talking point to justify a second term.

You can debate statistics and numbers, but what you can not ignore is the underlying ideology that has driven Obama to steer America in the direction he has the past 3+ years. And if you pay attention to the underlying effects of implementing Obama's ideological agenda, with GM being one example of many, any reasonable man should realize that Obama does not deserve to be re-elected.
 
To do some thing very well is to be admired.
To do many things well is success.
Look no further than the USSR, and their choosings of winners and losers.

In many scenarios, you will see the pattern where the USSR drove their "best" in particular fields, where diverity would have done better for them, it simply didnt exist, because, if you were good at a particular thing, you worked with others of the same ilk.

Many failures, deaths, unsafe conditions, setbacks all followed by more government monies.
This is a stark contrast as to the American way, and should remain so
 
Never blame the moron Bush who put us into this debt with his wars which made no sense at all.Always Obama to blame that is the Republicans a blame party.
 


And the President is powerless to change that...
 

 


All I'm saying is using rhetoric to discount statistics and numbers is silly. It was really only in reference to the last section of his post too, which is why I responded with counter argument on one and a set of questions on the other.

By the way conspiring almost always refers to malicious intent whether through illegal or harmful actions.
 
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