The demise of wargames - or "The Sky is Falling" syndrome

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hi,

The demise of wargames - articles are being written left and right,
trying to figure out what is wrong and how it can be cured.

Then comes along the list (Charles Roberts Award) of boardgames
published in 2004 and in glossing over the list here's me thinking that
for a hobby in decline there sure are a hell of a lot of games getting
published. 135 to be precise. That's one game every 2.5 days. So I went
back 5 years and had a look at the same list for 1999. only 73 games
published - half the number of today.

Now, I'm the first to say that quantity does not equal quality, but
practically everyone is agreeing the average quality of current
boardgames is a lot better than in the so-called Golden Age so we
should be ok on the quality part. Moreover : I own half a dozen of the
games on the 2004 list and I'm pretty satisfied with the quality in
that small sample.

Ok, so now I'm curious about pc wargames - what were the wargames
released in 1999 ? - the games I was playing back then (3R, TOAW and
TAO) predated 1999 - the only ones I'm finding is Smolensk '41 in the
PzC series and Shogun:Total War. Maybe some incarnation of Steel
Panthers was also released.

Not exactly games to get exited about - which explains why I wasn't
playing any of them ... so how about 2004 :
Rome Total War, ACW - Campaign Gettysburg, Modern Campaigns : North
German Plain '85, Point of Attack II, War over Vietnam, Tin Soldiers:
Alexander The Great, Battles in Normandy, War in the Pacific, Campaigns
on the Danube 1805 & 1809, Dragoon : The Prussian War Machine, Raging
Tiger : The Second Korean War.

RTW, WitP and BiN will be remembered in 5 years time as classics. So
2004 wins out both in quality and quantity.

We're 2 months into 2005 and look at what's been released already :
Flashpoint Germany, Grigsby's World at War, Civil War-Bull Run,
Dangerous Waters and Hearts of Iron 2.

If the sky is indeed falling, it can continue to do so for all I care
as it seems a flood of great games is tagging along for the ride.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

HR wrote:

> The board games, and I haven't played the newer ones, were much more
of a
> *wargame*. If the computer games had just done what amount to
ports...after
> all whats the computer best at?..crunching the rules and odds.

For the incurable who keep thinking the only good computer wargame is a
straight port of a classic : rejoyce, for faint and distant voices in
the wind are telling me of a classic strategic game getting ported to
the pc - it ain't WiF - and it's been kept Top Secret so far.

[I'm not yanking your chain here, all of the above is true - and no, I
can't be bribed]

> Other than 3R I can't think of a game
> that is easy to see since the screen is covered with menus.

<innocently>
Strategic Command ?
</innocently>

> The later SSG
> games are near impossioble to read, or at least not pleasing to the
eye.

You need a bigger monitor - seriously - that way the pixels are further
apart for games like BiN which for all intents and purposes you
*should* like because it's the closest thing to playing a boardgame on
the pc.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

As far as boardgames go, the wargaming horizon is looking pretty danged
good (I recommend Europe Engulfed to anyone who's interested). As far
as computer wargames... isn't there a new Combat Mission in the works?
What about Wartime Command (a title that I'm greatly looking forward
to)?

-V

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Yeah but the problem is they're not great games. WAW, I actually have hope
for.
HoI doesn't even belong in this category.

The board games, and I haven't played the newer ones, were much more of a
*wargame*. If the computer games had just done what amount to ports...after
all whats the computer best at?..crunching the rules and odds. But instead
they went for graphics and what not. Other than 3R I can't think of a game
that is easy to see since the screen is covered with menus. The later SSG
games are near impossioble to read, or at least not pleasing to the eye.





<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109694411.500012.132630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> The demise of wargames - articles are being written left and right,
> trying to figure out what is wrong and how it can be cured.
>
> Then comes along the list (Charles Roberts Award) of boardgames
> published in 2004 and in glossing over the list here's me thinking that
> for a hobby in decline there sure are a hell of a lot of games getting
> published. 135 to be precise. That's one game every 2.5 days. So I went
> back 5 years and had a look at the same list for 1999. only 73 games
> published - half the number of today.
>
> Now, I'm the first to say that quantity does not equal quality, but
> practically everyone is agreeing the average quality of current
> boardgames is a lot better than in the so-called Golden Age so we
> should be ok on the quality part. Moreover : I own half a dozen of the
> games on the 2004 list and I'm pretty satisfied with the quality in
> that small sample.
>
> Ok, so now I'm curious about pc wargames - what were the wargames
> released in 1999 ? - the games I was playing back then (3R, TOAW and
> TAO) predated 1999 - the only ones I'm finding is Smolensk '41 in the
> PzC series and Shogun:Total War. Maybe some incarnation of Steel
> Panthers was also released.
>
> Not exactly games to get exited about - which explains why I wasn't
> playing any of them ... so how about 2004 :
> Rome Total War, ACW - Campaign Gettysburg, Modern Campaigns : North
> German Plain '85, Point of Attack II, War over Vietnam, Tin Soldiers:
> Alexander The Great, Battles in Normandy, War in the Pacific, Campaigns
> on the Danube 1805 & 1809, Dragoon : The Prussian War Machine, Raging
> Tiger : The Second Korean War.
>
> RTW, WitP and BiN will be remembered in 5 years time as classics. So
> 2004 wins out both in quality and quantity.
>
> We're 2 months into 2005 and look at what's been released already :
> Flashpoint Germany, Grigsby's World at War, Civil War-Bull Run,
> Dangerous Waters and Hearts of Iron 2.
>
> If the sky is indeed falling, it can continue to do so for all I care
> as it seems a flood of great games is tagging along for the ride.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <1109694411.500012.132630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> The demise of wargames - articles are being written left and right,
> trying to figure out what is wrong and how it can be cured.

That article is just one of the perennials. I file it along with the
hoo-haa entitled, "Is the real estate bubble about to burst?"

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The Islamists have been clear all along about their plans to form
an Islamic caliphate and inhabit the entire world with burqas,
stonings, amputations, honor killings and a lack of religious and
political freedom. Whether or not to oppose such a movement should
have been a no-brainer, especially for self-proclaimed 'progressives.'
Instead, they have extended their misguided sympathies to tyrants
and terrorists."
- Cinnamon Stillwell

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Now I didn't say an exact port..you know what I meant Some counters with
numbers, hexes, woods,...you get the drift

Speaking of there as a computer game close to that genre,not a port...Red
Thunder I believe. I still have it.
However it seemed to play rather slow which might be more the scenario.

Huh huh..a classic port. Ok I'll buy you that Tiger tank. Now tell tell

SC2. I've yet to see and put my faith in. We had our little debate on the
beer and pretzel..or not so pretzel on SC1. So..SC2 will really have to step
in the big league for me to call it a real wargame


Oh wait...I know....Squad Leader...that's it right?? And a few others if I
remember. Or is this all dreamware


<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109704986.852883.250770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> HR wrote:
>
>> The board games, and I haven't played the newer ones, were much more
> of a
>> *wargame*. If the computer games had just done what amount to
> ports...after
>> all whats the computer best at?..crunching the rules and odds.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Volstag" <hawkbeak@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109705542.568394.148630@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> As far as boardgames go, the wargaming horizon is looking pretty danged
> good (I recommend Europe Engulfed to anyone who's interested). As far
> as computer wargames... isn't there a new Combat Mission in the works?
> What about Wartime Command (a title that I'm greatly looking forward
> to)?
>
> -V
>

Yeah..what happened to the release date of wartime command. hmmm..

Then there's that band of brothers one out this month I believe..although
that's more along the 3d tpye shooters but does claim realism.

I wouldn't even mind a 1st person shooter with a squad if it was realistic.
Not these Battlefield "who charges the fastest" 1942 types.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Volstag" <hawkbeak@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109705542.568394.148630@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> As far as boardgames go, the wargaming horizon is looking pretty danged
> good (I recommend Europe Engulfed to anyone who's interested). As far
> as computer wargames... isn't there a new Combat Mission in the works?
> What about Wartime Command (a title that I'm greatly looking forward
> to)?
>
> -V
>

WAW listed as 3/3 on EB. Who is not reliable anymore.
Wartime command if off the charts. Where did it go?
Brother in Arms is listed as 3-15

Again, EB is totally unreliable these days...thet actually used to keep up
with it.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

I think that the key factor was the decision to move to a direct sale model.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> I think that the key factor was the decision to move to a direct sale
model.

Uhm, I managed to write 432.914 lines of commentary and to delete everything
except for the first one - and the message, I see, makes much more sense now
)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

HR wrote:
> Now I didn't say an exact port..you know what I meant Some counters
with
> numbers, hexes, woods,...you get the drift

Knew all along what you meant

> Oh wait...I know....Squad Leader...that's it right??

Wrong - Well, Paradox did buy the rights to the name "Squad Leader"
and has stated that they're working on it. No idea what *that* will
look like.

> And a few others if I
> remember. Or is this all dreamware

No dreamware - I got the info from Huggy Bear who said that "Word on
the street is ..." And everyone knows Huggy Bear is a very reliable
source.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <vNydnYkFn_75a7nfRVn-2Q@comcast.com>, HR@horizon.net says...
>
> "Volstag" <hawkbeak@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1109705542.568394.148630@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > As far as boardgames go, the wargaming horizon is looking pretty danged
> > good (I recommend Europe Engulfed to anyone who's interested). As far
> > as computer wargames... isn't there a new Combat Mission in the works?
> > What about Wartime Command (a title that I'm greatly looking forward
> > to)?
> >
> > -V
> >
>
> Yeah..what happened to the release date of wartime command. hmmm..
>
> Then there's that band of brothers one out this month I believe..although
> that's more along the 3d tpye shooters but does claim realism.
>
> I wouldn't even mind a 1st person shooter with a squad if it was realistic.
> Not these Battlefield "who charges the fastest" 1942 types.
>

There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
you just command the squad. It is 3d though. Some guy mentioned it
once on this newsgroup. Maybe he will pop in with the name.
--
Epi

Do you get off on pain? Like to feel it coursing
through your body? Are you a masochist? Do you
like to play with a sore? It's only a matter of
degrees. I guess degrees matter.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
> my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
> you just command the squad.

Is it "Operation Flashpoint"? That is truly a classic.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <m6gVd.76063$2h5.13703@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
reckall@hotmail.com says...
> > There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
> > my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
> > you just command the squad.
>
> Is it "Operation Flashpoint"? That is truly a classic.

Not Flashpoint. I do like that game though. It's not one everyone
would have heard of. Like I say, it's not a shooter, you command the
squad.
--
Epi

Do you get off on pain? Like to feel it coursing
through your body? Are you a masochist? Do you
like to play with a sore? It's only a matter of
degrees. I guess degrees matter.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:31:42 GMT, Epi Watkins <epicat1212@hotmail.com>
wrote:


>There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
>my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
>you just command the squad. It is 3d though. Some guy mentioned it
>once on this newsgroup. Maybe he will pop in with the name.

Battlefield 2?

Three-page ads in the mags right now. Major AAA title. From what I've
read very immersive, very loud.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

haha

I heard Squad leader would be almost a direct port. That doesn't sound
something like Paradox would do.

We all know they used the name Sqaud Leader before and that game not only
wasn't close to the original..it was no good.

Hmm..I'll have to go see Huggy

-HR
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109746226.660445.109950@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> HR wrote:
>> Now I didn't say an exact port..you know what I meant Some counters
> with
>> numbers, hexes, woods,...you get the drift
>
> Knew all along what you meant
>
>> Oh wait...I know....Squad Leader...that's it right??
>
> Wrong - Well, Paradox did buy the rights to the name "Squad Leader"
> and has stated that they're working on it. No idea what *that* will
> look like.
>
>> And a few others if I
>> remember. Or is this all dreamware
>
> No dreamware - I got the info from Huggy Bear who said that "Word on
> the street is ..." And everyone knows Huggy Bear is a very reliable
> source.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Hmmm...think think will ya

America's Army? But that's a shooter.


"Epi Watkins" <epicat1212@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c8f75fcff97d0db9896b7@news.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <m6gVd.76063$2h5.13703@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
> reckall@hotmail.com says...
>> > There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
>> > my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
>> > you just command the squad.
>>
>> Is it "Operation Flashpoint"? That is truly a classic.
>
> Not Flashpoint. I do like that game though. It's not one everyone
> would have heard of. Like I say, it's not a shooter, you command the
> squad.
> --
> Epi
>
> Do you get off on pain? Like to feel it coursing
> through your body? Are you a masochist? Do you
> like to play with a sore? It's only a matter of
> degrees. I guess degrees matter.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Battlefield 2?
>
> Three-page ads in the mags right now. Major AAA title. From what I've
> read very immersive, very loud.

I played a beta of BF2 at a press-event in London. One of the features is
the "Theatre Commander" role: you watch the battle unfolding on a strategic
map and you do send orders to squad leaders - players in the 3D battlefield
able to command and coordinate small group of other players in what is
called a "squad". The Uber Commander can also order artillery and air
strikes. It looked like a cool concept!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <fdSdnRvi2bKK3LvfRVn-jA@comcast.com>, HR@horizon.net says...
> Hmmm...think think will ya
>
> America's Army? But that's a shooter.
>
>
> "Epi Watkins" <epicat1212@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1c8f75fcff97d0db9896b7@news.east.earthlink.net...
> > In article <m6gVd.76063$2h5.13703@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
> > reckall@hotmail.com says...
> >> > There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
> >> > my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
> >> > you just command the squad.
> >>
> >> Is it "Operation Flashpoint"? That is truly a classic.
> >
> > Not Flashpoint. I do like that game though. It's not one everyone
> > would have heard of. Like I say, it's not a shooter, you command the
> > squad.
> > --
> > Epi
> >
> > Do you get off on pain? Like to feel it coursing
> > through your body? Are you a masochist? Do you
> > like to play with a sore? It's only a matter of
> > degrees. I guess degrees matter.

Sorry, it's not America's Army. I never heard of it before or since
someone mentioned it on this newsgroup.

--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <u3hc2155v83kcuj4jubl76til8v9vieaj5@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:31:42 GMT, Epi Watkins <epicat1212@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >There is a game like that. Modern. I forget the name. Unfortunately,
> >my computer can't handle it. Really neat though. It's not a shooter;
> >you just command the squad. It is 3d though. Some guy mentioned it
> >once on this newsgroup. Maybe he will pop in with the name.
>
> Battlefield 2?
>
> Three-page ads in the mags right now. Major AAA title. From what I've
> read very immersive, very loud.
>
> Steve

tHAT'S NOT IT. iT'S NOT REALLY A SHOOTER. yOU ORDER THE SQUAD. Forgive
caps, accident.

--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:12:48 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
<reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I played a beta of BF2 at a press-event in London. One of the features is
>the "Theatre Commander" role: you watch the battle unfolding on a strategic
>map and you do send orders to squad leaders - players in the 3D battlefield
>able to command and coordinate small group of other players in what is
>called a "squad". The Uber Commander can also order artillery and air
>strikes. It looked like a cool concept!

I think so too, in theory, but after my first serious multiplayer
experience with Call of Duty: UO I wonder if the kiddies will be able
to play nice and agree which one gets to be Uber. It would work well
with clans, but pick-up games tend to be pretty egalitarian and fight
taking orders from strangers.

My style of play is more thoughtful, slower, and stealthy (I like
sniper rifles) than the grab-a-submachinegun-and-charge play style of
your average 15-YO male on hormones. I've been called every name in
the book for playing my own game.

Steve

--
www.thepaxamsolution.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Sorry, it's not America's Army. I never heard of it before or since
> someone mentioned it on this newsgroup.

Full Spectrum Warrior?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <d05tt3$gu3$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, andybrown@somewhere.in.nz
says...
> > Sorry, it's not America's Army. I never heard of it before or since
> > someone mentioned it on this newsgroup.
>
> Full Spectrum Warrior?

I think that's it.

--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Yeah thats what I was thinking but couldn't remember the game.
It's ok. Its a squad with 2-3 fireteams. So you can,and should, use the
leapfrog tactic.


"Andy Brown" <andybrown@somewhere.in.nz> wrote in message
news:d05tt3$gu3$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> Sorry, it's not America's Army. I never heard of it before or since
>> someone mentioned it on this newsgroup.
>
> Full Spectrum Warrior?
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <Gvednd4WK7BV8LrfRVn-hg@comcast.com>, HR@horizon.net says...
> Yeah thats what I was thinking but couldn't remember the game.
> It's ok. Its a squad with 2-3 fireteams. So you can,and should, use the
> leapfrog tactic.
>
>
> "Andy Brown" <andybrown@somewhere.in.nz> wrote in message
> news:d05tt3$gu3$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> >> Sorry, it's not America's Army. I never heard of it before or since
> >> someone mentioned it on this newsgroup.
> >
> > Full Spectrum Warrior?
> >
That was it, and I loved it. What little of the demo I could play
without it freezing (not locking up, just slow computer).
--
Epi

How can a man who used to dress in next-to-nothing,
and show off his body, then turn around and
call others girlie-men. Strange.