The dems say voter ID laws are unconstitutional ...

[wanamingo]

BS. Getting an ID is not that hard. If they don't have access to transportation, how do they get food?

LOL just for the record you dont need a car to get food.

 

[wanamingo]

Are you saying the elderly with no transportation eats chinese take out every day? Or papa johns?

No.... Meals on wheels, family assistance, home care. I used to run deliveries of meals on wheels with my grandfather, god the only time some of those people opened the door was to accept those awful Styrofoam boxes.

You also have to take into account most of these elderly people have lived in one town their whole lives. Who ID's a guy they've known since they were kids? They use the same bank for decades, same post office, no one ID's them for booze.

And then you have the survivalist types who grow their own food. I live near tons of farms and you could do just fine buying at the weekly farmers markets.

 

[wanamingo]

Well, they can use their Medicare ID then.

Only if it has a photo

Which [strike]not many[/strike] none do.

 

[Crush3d]

No.... Meals on wheels, family assistance, home care. I used to run deliveries of meals on wheels with my grandfather, god the only time some of those people opened the door was to accept those awful Styrofoam boxes.

You also have to take into account most of these elderly people have lived in one town their whole lives. Who ID's a guy they've known since they were kids? They use the same bank for decades, same post office, no one ID's them for booze.

And then you have the survivalist types who grow their own food. I live near tons of farms and you could do just fine buying at the weekly farmers markets.

If they have the capacity to get to a voting booth they have the capacity to get an ID.

 

[wanamingo]

I would like to reiterate that this is a photo ID not just an ID.

And how come no one has addressed the fact that voter ID laws would barely affect any of the actual voter fraud cases(the .000004%l fraudulent votes)?

 

[johnsonma]

They just ignore that little nugget of logic because it defeats the whole argument. You and I have mentioned it several times.

 

[wanamingo]

I thought the proposal would allow a birth cert., passport, or utility bill no more than 25 days old?

As to the .000004%. I simply don't believe it. RE: Al Franken election. They "find" a duffel bag full of votes for Franken in the trunk of a poll worker? Seriously?

It may not eliminate all fraud but it will help to trim it down. A good first step to election law reform IMO.

Having a photo ID would have done nothing to stop an election official from leaving a few duffel bags of votes in their car. The problem there wasn't at the polling station but with the people conducting the polls.

Same with a birth certificate or utility bill, they mean next to nothing.... I can think of a few ways people could very easily get around that.

What about absentee ballots? If you cant get to the voting station you dont get a vote? No Americans overseas (Including military) would be able to vote.

 

[chunkymonster]

You are blind to the facts republicans want voter ID so they can reap the benefits of seniors and minorities from not voting and grab all the votes.People over 80 and above have no access to transportation and sometimes cannot afford to pay for the ID card.Same bullshit from the Republicans once again. Screw the poor and Middle Class.Eliminate the minorities.

Marv, I apprecaite your zeal, but I am beginning to wonder if you even know how voting in your State works or what your Rights as a Voter even are?!

I am not blind to anything. Again, the Democrat/Progressive narrative that Republicans intentionally and purposefully disenfranchise the young, minorities, and the elderly because they tend to vote Democrat is just plain false and bias.

It is not the responsibility of any political party to provide transportation as a matter of fact. A given political party, candidate, or institution may provide transportation as a service to the voters. I have witnessed both my local Republican and Democrat parties provide shuttles and buses to retirement communities and assisted living homes with the specific intent of ensuring the elderly are able to vote. I have driven the van borrowed from my church into minority neighborhoods so members of my parish who want to vote had a ride to/from the polling place. And, I know for a fact that the local Masonic Home provides transportation to their residents to and from the polling place. This also aside from the fact that anyone not able to physically go to their local polling place is able to vote by absentee ballot.

So please, give up the tired narrative of Republicans intentionally and purposefully disenfranchise the young, minorities, and the elderly. Your presumptions and basis for your argument are false and bias.

As far as not affording an ID card, albeit it may cost to get a drivers license or non-drivers ID card in any given State, IT DOES NOT COST to register to vote in any given State. A charge to register to vote would be considered a polling tax which IS ILLEGAL. In the New Jersey, where I live, there is NO CHARGE TO REGISTER TO VOTE! All someone needs to register to vote in NJ is proof of residence and and proof that they are an American citizen! Got a Birth Certificate? Got a utility bill? Got a Passport? Got a WIC card? Got a military ID? Got a membership card to Sam's Club or Costco? Got a bank account statement? Got any number of legally accepted forms of residence and American birth? WELL THEN GUESS WHAT, YOU CAN VOTE!

If there is any cost associated with voting, it is the cost of personal and public choice.

 

[johnsonma]

So chunky, your against passing a law that would require a photo ID?

 

[chunkymonster]

You guys are so interested in fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Oldman is the only one to provide any kind of evidence voter fraud is going on. Just because it is a talking point doesn't mean its true.

I agree that voter fraud is a straw argument. There have been proven instances of ATTEMPTED voter fraud, but very few prosecutable cases of voter fraud. Regardless of the reality of voter fraud, I wholly support voter ID laws. And let me be very clear here, I support Voter ID laws that require a person to provide proof of residency, American citizenship, and must follow the proper registration procedures at the Town/County/State levels to obtain a Voter ID Card and or be on file as a registered voter. I do not support Voter ID laws that require a person to present a photo ID in order to vote.

Chunky I understand where you are coming from but the OP link explicitly states that the 10-11% of all Americans that don't have a photo ID are minorities and the elderly, you can look this up if you want. So you might say this isnt about race but those are the people most likely affected by the voter ID laws. If you don't need an ID to be a citizen you dont need an ID to vote its really as simple as that.

I dunno, I would argue that you do need some form of ID to be a citizen; whether it's a Birth Certificate, Baptismal Certificate, Passport, or something of the like, it is fundamental in today's America to provide proof of citizenship. Legally, you must have something that ties your physical being to your unique personhood. Truly though, I fail to believe an elderly person, or anyone, born and raised in America within the past four generations does not have at least one form of photo ID or proof of citizenship. Without it, like the minorities and elderly noted in the article, a person operates outside societal norms. The issue is really then about bringing those on the outside back into obtaining and retaining the fundamental identification and not the straw man about disenfranchising voters or immigration.

I'm really into policy debate, I spent 4 years on the debate team, I mostly went solo therefore I was a master debater. But to win a debate you need to fulfill a few points.

1) - You haven't identified an issue, at least one not substantial enough to warrant forcing every single person over the age of 18 to get an ID. Wouldn't bar code tattoos be a bit easier?

2) - The proposed solution doesn't actually solve the problem. You can read up on some of the links provided. In most of the links that oldman gave it was fraud behind the curtains, the people counting the votes, or deciding who is eligible to vote, not your mom and pops lining up to vote. How would ID's have helped that?

3) - Its a huge government intrusion. Forcing your population to get ID's? Really? From libertarian types like yourselves... Im surprised, I also take it my taxes will be put towards this.... 400,000,000 million ID's are going to be a nightmare to handout.

4) - All of the documents you listed are very easily made, sometimes legally, like in one of the links oldman gave, it was more about identity theft then it was about voter fraud. How would an ID have fixed that, he had one?

1) I do not advocate the government, State or Federal, forcing anyone of any age to get an ID. Getting an ID is matter of personal choice. Participating as a responsible and contributing member of American society is a personal choice. Obtaining and maintaining the necessary ID and/or documentation to vote in State/Federal elections is a matter of personal choice.

2) Voter ID laws would not stop members of the election boards from committing a felony by stuffing the ballot box or negating a legitimate vote. Fraud committed by election board members and an individual citizen casting a fraudulent vote are two very different issues and should be addressed accordingly. I did not intend to imply that Voter ID law(s) would stop outright election fraud by election board members.

3) As mentioned, I do not advocate the government forcing an ID on anyone. However, as a participating member of American society, a person must choose whether to obtain the required identification and/or documentation necessary to actively participate. But the consequences when it comes to voting is the person who chooses not to obtain/maintain the proper ID effectively defaults on their right as an American citizen to vote.

4) Not sure of the specific link in oldmang's post your are referring to, but if the issue is identity theft, then that is a matter in of itself separate from voter fraud. However, if the person or group is using stolen ID's to cast votes, that is voter fraud. It is possible that Voter ID laws combined with Identity Theft laws could mitigate/minimize identity theft and ensure that fraudulent votes are not cast.

So no problem, no solution, huge gov oversight, minority exclusion, and an easily gamed system. Who wins? Only the republicans because they have shrunk the eligible voting population by 10% a mostly democratic 10%.

The Democratic/Progressive claim that Republicans want Voter ID laws to intentionally disenfranchise youth and minorities distracts from the fact that studies show that 11 percent of eligible voters, or about 21 million people, don’t have updated, state-issued photo IDs.

So really now, who's fault is it? The Republicans? Or the 10-11% of supposed disenfranchised voters who failed to maintain the necessary ID and documents in order to vote?

And I agree getting an ID is a really good idea, and easy as hell, you should have no reason NOT to have one. You need one to fly, open a bank account, drive a car, really do anything in a society. But you shouldn't be forced to get one, and you especially shouldn't be punished for not having one.

Agree completely, but given that the supposed 11% of disenfranchised voters simply failed to maintain the proper State issued ID necessary to vote does not mean that Republicans are to blame. And if the 11% are being punished, then they are realizing the consequences for their own inaction to maintain the proper State issued identification.

Points of Interest:
- In 2008 the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Indiana's photo ID requirement to vote as a legitimate, non-discriminatory means of protecting the integrity of elections.
- In 2011, the Obama Administration and DOJ reversed their position on Voter ID laws and sued the State of Texas for passing a Voter Photo ID law modeled after the Indiana law.

You want an indication why Voter ID laws are now becoming an issue; look no further than the Obama Administration and the fact that this is an election year.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Add the tags, create the victims, describe the villains, stir up the base.

 

[chunkymonster]

George Bush was a Republican who gave broad tax cuts and effectively bankrupted the economy (trippled the nation's debt) and sent the US to war in Afganistan and Iraq over things that did not exist, consting the US taxpayer a few more zillion ... and lining the pockets of his mates in the arms business.

Furthermore he let Hurricane Katrina devastate two states and in order to save money, allowed those states to remain crippled and they still have not recovered ... since he gave them virtually no support and simply watched them rot.

He brought in the Patriot Act which allows your govt to basically throw democracy out the door when convenient.

He also lined his mates pockets with cash and generally told everyone he did a great job.

Top bloke ... I think most of us think he smells like an old whores crotch.

I was no fan of Bush as he was a New World Order Big Government Republican just like his Daddy and the rest of his family. He did as much to grow the government in scope and authority as Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

Although, say what you want about Afghanistan and Iraq, I was happy to have a "don't mess with America" Texan in the Oval Office than the douche-bag enviro-hypocrite Al Gore!

Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco deserve far more of the blame than Bush. Since when did the President become responsible for managing a State's disaster recovery resources? NEVER until the Democrats decided Bush was after Katrina!!!!

And, oh please, let's not even get into lining "mates" pockets compared to the outright pandering to Big Corporations perpetrated by the Obama Administration. GE has shipped more jobs to China under Obama's nose than in the past 10 years! Way to go Obama, great job at picking a CEO who was supposed to advise you on how to create jobs in America!

Sure, Bush was a Big Government Republican and no friend to the conservatives, but I will take a wily-eyed Texan over a failed Community Organizer any day!

 

[musical marv]

BS. Getting an ID is not that hard. If they don't have access to transportation, how do they get food?

Many of these elderly people have workers who bring them the food as they cannot go out and buy it.Some people are not that fortunate perhaps as you and younger.

 

[johnsonma]

Interesting to note that after photo ID laws were passed in Indiana and Georgia minority voter turnout actually increased.

http://www.brennancenter.org/blog/archives/analyzing_minority_turnout_after_voter_id/

Uh....isn't your link arguing the exact opposite of your statement? Great article though, can't believe you beat me to it.

 

[wanamingo]

Minority voter turnout didn't increase after a photo ID requiremtn?

I want to correct a common misperception that came up during show, suggesting that voter turnout among Hispanic voters in Georgia has increased since the passage of its restrictive no-photo, no-vote photo ID law.

Motivation for voter turnout is notoriously difficult to measure. It’s a moving target, not lending itself easily to empirical methods of evaluation. But in this case, any assertion that voter turnout among Hispanics increased in Georgia following enactment of its strict voter ID law is simply not true

 

[jsc]

I chose New York State as a representative example:

New York identification for welfare requirements

http://www.sbls.org/index.php?id=65

...

Papers You Will Need

At your interview, you must submit documents to support the information you give on your application.

These papers include:


Proof of your identity: drivers license, U.S. passport, immigration papers, Social Security card, and birth certificates for each person in your household seeking benefits;

Proof of residence and rent: rent receipts, a lease, or a letter from your landlord or the person who shares your rent;

Proof of immigration status: U.S. passport, certificates of naturalization or citizenship, or resident alien card (“green card”); and

Proof of income: pay stubs or tax returns.

So ... A poor person (of any color) who is drawing any kind of welfare benefits already has everything heb needs to meet any "photo ID" requirements.

That takes care of the poor.

The young and the old? If they care about voting and they have no picture ID, they can take their paper work down to the DMV and get a non-driving license after registering to vote.

And both major parties will voluntarily transport people to the polls if they have no other way of getting there.

Thattakes care of the poor, the young, and the old. Who is left?

 

[musical marv]

Minority voter turnout didn't increase after a photo ID requiremtn?

Minority voters decreased you are correct sir.

 

[jsc]

You also need photoID to enter most federal and state courts:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2012/06/eric-holder-unaware-that-court-visitors-must-show-125703.html

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Fishing licenses, to buy many things, many things require them, and the dems always do, unless its voting itself.
So, the dems would keep out the poor, people of color by their own rules, what hatred they must have

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

These tactics remind me of the so called war on women, and all of the dems in congress coming out and saying the repubs dont want to pay women fairly, when you look at those dems, their aides are paid way less if theyre women.
Either hypocrites, or theyre wack, or they actually hate certain things, but hope nobody looks

 

[musical marv]

These tactics remind me of the so called war on women, and all of the dems in congress coming out and saying the repubs dont want to pay women fairly, when you look at those dems, their aides are paid way less if theyre women.
Either hypocrites, or theyre wack, or they actually hate certain things, but hope nobody looks

You want to know the truth both parties stink!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

You are right

 

[johnsonma]

Contradictory information abounds.

https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/handle/10355/2549

Not sure if I can believe in a study that was paid for by the republican party for the republican party, under Bush.

 

[johnsonma]

I chose New York State as a representative example:

New York identification for welfare requirements

http://www.sbls.org/index.php?id=65

...

Papers You Will Need

At your interview, you must submit documents to support the information you give on your application.

These papers include:


Proof of your identity: drivers license, U.S. passport, immigration papers, Social Security card, and birth certificates for each person in your household seeking benefits;

Proof of residence and rent: rent receipts, a lease, or a letter from your landlord or the person who shares your rent;

Proof of immigration status: U.S. passport, certificates of naturalization or citizenship, or resident alien card (“green card”); and

Proof of income: pay stubs or tax returns.

So ... A poor person (of any color) who is drawing any kind of welfare benefits already has everything heb needs to meet any "photo ID" requirements.

That takes care of the poor.

The young and the old? If they care about voting and they have no picture ID, they can take their paper work down to the DMV and get a non-driving license after registering to vote.

And both major parties will voluntarily transport people to the polls if they have no other way of getting there.

Thattakes care of the poor, the young, and the old. Who is left?

Voting is the right of every American, by requiring them to get an ID you are admitting that it is no longer a right but a privilege. Requiring voter ID's makes no sense and it will accomplish nothing while possibly causing some people to be excluded from voting. There is no ground from which to argue why enacting this kind of law makes sense.

 

[johnsonma]

Your forgetting to mention the amendments that have been passed regarding this. Not to mention you are forgetting that it serves no purpose.