Upgrading classes

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Michael Scott Brown wrote:

> "Clawhound" <none@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:1w6ae.155$fZ5.376@mencken.net.nih.gov...
>
>>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>>Brad, you are fundamentally confusing the PC advancement rules with the
>>NPC design rules. These are not the same thing. The PC advancement rules
>>are for the balanced advancement of player PC's, while the NPC rules
>>exis to help the DM's design discretion.
>
>
> This is an interesting point, but on the other hand, ostensibly the PCs
> and NPCs share a world with the same rules, and so continuity is an issue.
>
> -Michael
>
>

The fundamental quality of NPC classes is different from a PC class.
They have fewer abilities, fewer hitpoints, and far less wealth. They
are more narrowly focused. They achieve their levels over years, rather
than weeks or months. In general, they are held to a lesser standard.
That's what makes them so different from PC's. They live safer lives,
but they get fewer rewards when they advance.

CH

 

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Clawhound wrote:
> I find it completely irrelevant *HOW* the NPCs get their XP. The rules
> are all about how PC's advance in level. We have an entire book
> dedicated to it. What do NPC's get? A chapter in the DMG? Quite
> honestly, this is an argument about angels dancing on pinheads. The
> results, right or wrong, don't matter. All DM's will continue to just
> MAKE UP the NPC's.

I get your attitude, but this sort of discussion illutrates how weird some of
the prestige classes are for me. Like there are some that say "KLM is trained as
a librarian, dislikes to be around other folks, and studies a lot." And yet,
this same PrC is for somone who goes adventuring in a group throughout the fair
land getting into danger and death.

It's theatre of the absurd!
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

 

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"Clawhound" <none@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news😛qaae.162$fZ5.310@mencken.net.nih.gov...
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > This is an interesting point, but on the other hand, ostensibly the
PCs
> > and NPCs share a world with the same rules, and so continuity is an
issue.
>
> The fundamental quality of NPC classes is different from a PC class.
> They have fewer abilities, fewer hitpoints, and far less wealth. They
> are more narrowly focused. They achieve their levels over years, rather
> than weeks or months. In general, they are held to a lesser standard.
> That's what makes them so different from PC's. They live safer lives,
> but they get fewer rewards when they advance.

This is wise observation stuff.

-Michael

 

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Bradd wrote:
>> If you break the guidelines, and it results in absurdity,

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> <raises hand> Strawman!

WTF?

>> How are role-playing awards at all relevant to the advancement of
>> off-stage NPCs? This is a blatant red herring.

> Hey, bitch - it's *your* argument that XP gain must correlate with
> danger and death --

WTF?

This word "strawman," I do not think it means what you think it means.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Clawhound <none@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Brad, you are fundamentally confusing the PC advancement rules with
> the NPC design rules --

Tell that to MSB; he's using it as a basis of his argument.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Symbol wrote:
> Who is the best blacksmith in the world?

Any 17th+ level spellcaster with Wish/Miracle, Item Creation feats,
and XP to burn.

> Hmm? Prove that the 20th level commoners have maxed out that particular
> craft skill (and that they aren't versed in a wide variety of skills which
> would be more likely to allow them to experience a wide variety of
> challenges).

Commoners are a very poor class to progress in if ones maxing out
more than 3+Int mod commoner skills (2+ for non-human). If they're
cross-training in esoteric disciplines they should switch to Expert
(which is the class that does that).

Would a Craft(foo) guy progress to 20th? Seems unlikely IMC; my
high level Commoners are more usually social skill focused, but that's
because I give commoners free social networks (automatic support of
"extended family", with bigger numbers by level) and I their exeptional
challenges probably revolve around organising and saving those Com1's.

I do use the odd mid level blacksmith Commoner (about 8th) in some
cities with something like a Forge of Blacksmithing +20.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news😛g9ae.10376$An2.2664@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:reydndB8QtKuXPXfRVnyuw@pipex.net...
> > "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > What's pretty nutty is the plethora of logical fallacies you probably
went
> > through to reach that conclusion. Who is the best blacksmith in the
world?
> > Hmm?
>
> RTFM.

There is a section in the manuals that describes the best blacksmith in
the world? Cite please.

 

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"Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:WoidnToAXa-p2_LfRVnysw@pipex.net...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > What's pretty nutty is the plethora of logical fallacies you probably
went
> > > through to reach that conclusion. Who is the best blacksmith in the
world?
> > > Hmm?
> >
> > RTFM.
>
> There is a section in the manuals that describes the best blacksmith in
> the world? Cite please.

DMG. NPC classes section. It's on the upper right side of a right-side
page, probably the introductory section. RTFM.

-Michael

 

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Symbol wrote:
>> There is a section in the manuals that describes the best blacksmith
>> in the world? Cite please.

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> DMG. NPC classes section. It's on the upper right side of a
> right-side page, probably the introductory section. RTFM.

"A typical blacksmith might only be a 3rd-level commoner, but the
world's greatest blacksmith is probably a 20th-level expert" (DMG,
p. 107).

A 20th-level expert with an Int-based trade should have about 10 skill
points per level. A "blacksmith" of that level would likely have many
ranks in Appraise, Craft (armorsmithing), Craft (blacksmithing), Craft
(weaponsmithing), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Open Locks, and Sense
Motive. Your "blacksmith" will also be one of the world's greatest
negotiators and one of the greatest locksmiths. Unless, of course, he
diversifies into something even less related to ironworking.

Furthermore, he'll have even better combat stats than the commoner
you've been ranting on about. While you've been arguing that he should
have fewer combat skills, the DMG actually recommends a class with
better combat stats.

He's clearly not /just/ the world's greatest blacksmith. I doubt that
many people would even think of him as a "blacksmith." Instead, they'd
call him a guildmaster, or a mayor, or a king's advisor. This is just
like your "pyramid architect" argument.

I love it when your own sources impeach you.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> Bradd, your example smith is probably not unreasonable. I'm just
being
> very argumentative today.
>
> -Michael

Since you are seldom argumentative, I suspect he will let it slide : )

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd6ukur.86d.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Symbol wrote:
> >> There is a section in the manuals that describes the best blacksmith
> >> in the world? Cite please.
>
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > DMG. NPC classes section. It's on the upper right side of a
> > right-side page, probably the introductory section. RTFM.
>
> "A typical blacksmith might only be a 3rd-level commoner, but the
> world's greatest blacksmith is probably a 20th-level expert" (DMG,
> p. 107).

Thanks. Didn't have books available to check that.

I hope we're all remembering that the best smith is not going to be a
human. Of the core races dwarves are better (+2 to all Craft checks
relating to metal) and that is going to change the modelling. They have
various modifiers to combat from their battle familiar culture anyway and
a lot more years to practice.

 

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Symbol wrote:
> I hope we're all remembering that the best smith is not going to be a
> human. Of the core races dwarves are better (+2 to all Craft checks
> relating to metal) and that is going to change the modelling.

I overlooked that; I'm not a big fan of dwarves. That +2 will give them
an edge over any comparable human blacksmith. Of course, the world's
greatest human blacksmith will have even more diverse skills than I
listed in my analysis; he'll be able to max out nine of his ten class
skills.

And if you consider the world's greatest half-elf blacksmith, I don't
think you can ignore the bonuses to social skills. There's no way a
20th-level craftsman is going to pass up maxed-out Diplomacy with a
racial bonus; it's just too useful for guild politics. While he might be
an amazing craftsman, people are going to remember him as a leader and
negotiator, and he'll probably hold a high office.

Anyway --

> [Dwarves] have various modifiers to combat from their battle familiar
> culture anyway and a lot more years to practice.

Heh. The same goes for the best elf and half-orc blacksmiths. They all
come from cultures with significant martial focus, and at that level,
they're all big shots. If MJB seriously thinks these people don't have
significant hazard experience, he's juicier than I thought.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd6uums.86d.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Symbol wrote:
> > I hope we're all remembering that the best smith is not going to be a
> > human. Of the core races dwarves are better (+2 to all Craft checks
> > relating to metal) and that is going to change the modelling.
>
> I overlooked that; I'm not a big fan of dwarves. That +2 will give them
> an edge over any comparable human blacksmith.

It just so happens that IMC the best smiths are Dwarves and that has
a lot to do with the fact that they are the only "friendly" race with
access to adamantine deposits that haven't been corrupted with negative
energy (don't ask). Their produce is in demand.

But that brings up another point. The "best" smiths in a D&D world will be
the ones called apon to work with the variety of special, expensive
materials. They certainly don't seem likely to be making iron horse shoes
for the local cart horses. We're talking pretty fantastic NPCs.

> > [Dwarves] have various modifiers to combat from their battle familiar
> > culture anyway and a lot more years to practice.
>
> Heh. The same goes for the best elf and half-orc blacksmiths. They all
> come from cultures with significant martial focus, and at that level,
> they're all big shots. If MJB seriously thinks these people don't have
> significant hazard experience, he's juicier than I thought.

He keeps talking about the stupidity of non combat specific classes facing
hazards. I wonder if he things it is any less stupid to use the variant
rules to produce the world's best fighter who has never actually defeated
an opponent in combat? After all, PCs gain experience in the same way as
NPCs.

 

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Symbol wrote:
> It just so happens that IMC the best smiths are Dwarves and that has a
> lot to do with the fact that they are the only "friendly" race with
> access to adamantine deposits that haven't been corrupted with
> negative energy (don't ask). Their produce is in demand.

My new campaign is actually dwarf-centric, but the PCs are from the
barbaric elf-lands, so I still haven't used the dwarves much. (The
setting is an alternate Earth circa AD 400. Romans = dwarves, Germans =
elves, Celts = humans, Gauls = halflings, Greeks = hobgoblins, etc.) In
the setting, dwarves are still the best natural craftsmen, but they're
better known for their organizational and military prowess. Many of the
really cool toys actually come from drow instead: They're good
craftsmen, they have easy access to rare materials, and they're
excellent "negotiators."
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Bradd wrote:
>> I chose skills as closely related to the blacksmith's trade as
>> possible: making and selling gear made of iron, plus locksmithing.
>> [Appraise, Craft (armorsmithing), Craft (blacksmithing), Craft
>> (weaponsmithing), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Open Locks, and Sense
>> Motive.] Where do you think he's going to spend his ~180 skill
>> points? Only 23 of them can go into Craft (blacksmithing).

Michael "Juicebag" Brown wrote:
> One, you've made gleeful assumptions about his intelligence ....

That's the skill-point total for a dwarf who starts with 12-13 Int and
puts his ability score increases into Intelligence. I didn't even use
the elite array, since it's not an elite class.

> experts don't *need* to be smart to be good --

But they do need to be smart to be the world's greatest blacksmith,
since it's an Int-based skill. Otherwise, you'll only be the second
greatest blacksmith, behind the guy who did maximize Intelligence. Duh.

> Given your presumption that combat makes the man --

Quit misstating my position already.

> Two, you've quite conveniently picked a set of skills that make your
> blacksmith "mister diplomat" so that you can then argue how important
> he must be to society, which is a violation of the logical standards
> both of us recognize, butcher.

No, I picked Diplomacy because, as a world-class blacksmith, he's a
good businessman and an important guild member. Duh.

>> Why do you keep insisting that the blacksmithing skills are the
>> result of combat, instead of taking the much more reasonable and
>> obvious position that combat is almost inevitable for high rollers in
>> a swords & sorcery setting? The survival skills follow from being a
>> big shot, not the other way around.

> If he were such a high roller, Bradd, he wouldn't be an NPC class
> character.

What PC class is better for his job than expert is?

>> Please suggest a plausible way to spend 180 skill points that doesn't
>> result in a wide range of amazing skills.

> You can stay a little closer to his mercantile roots than you did, sir.

I chose metal-working, locksmithing, and business skills, because that's
what blacksmiths do. Duh.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd6vfke.ar9.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Bradd wrote:
> Michael "Juicebag" Brown wrote:
> > One, you've made gleeful assumptions about his intelligence ....
>
> That's the skill-point total for a dwarf who starts with 12-13 Int and
> puts his ability score increases into Intelligence. I didn't even use
> the elite array, since it's not an elite class.

Using the array at all is already silly. What, NPCs can't possibly have
randomly rolled stats? Are you on crack, man? The smith's intelligence is
anywhere from 8 to 18 to start with.

> > experts don't *need* to be smart to be good --
>
> But they do need to be smart to be the world's greatest blacksmith,
> since it's an Int-based skill. Otherwise, you'll only be the second
> greatest blacksmith, behind the guy who did maximize Intelligence. Duh.

Depends on what level the guy with higher intelligence reached before he
died, don't you think?
How many experts make it to 17-20th level *your way* with high int (and
therefore lesser physiques)?
I would contend that having better physique winds up being a telling
discriminator in survival rate.

> > Two, you've quite conveniently picked a set of skills that make your
> > blacksmith "mister diplomat" so that you can then argue how important
> > he must be to society, which is a violation of the logical standards
> > both of us recognize, butcher.
>
> No, I picked Diplomacy because, as a world-class blacksmith, he's a
> good businessman and an important guild member. Duh.

Guild? Business? Assumptions again!

> > If he were such a high roller, Bradd, he wouldn't be an NPC class
> > character.
>
> What PC class is better for his job than expert is?

Rogue. The thing with the surviving and the ability to fight, and the
lots of skills ...

-Michael

 

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Bradd, your example smith is probably not unreasonable. I'm just being
very argumentative today.

-Michael