'Upgrading' my Celeron 500...

slvr_phoenix · Jun 17, 2003

Okay, so I'm looking at prices for stuff and thinking that maybe I should 'upgrade' my Celeron 500 PC ... for my wife's sake. The old box just can't run The Sims all that well anymore, what with all of those expansions. Here's what I'm looking at ordering from Newegg:

Lite-On Model# MT 950 (Black) ATX Mid w/ 300W = $62
Logitech Black Optical Desktop (keyboard/mouse) = $31
(retail)Biostar M7VIT PRO KT400 = $58
(OEM) AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (Thoroughbred) = $44
Speeze FalconRock Heatsink Al/Cu 80mm = $14
Arctic Silver Ceramique compound 2.7g/0.8cc = $10
256MB KINGSTON KVR333X64C25 PC2700 CL2.5 = $36
VGA Apollo GF4 MX440 64MB DDR w/TV Out = $46
Western Digital WD400BB 40GB, 7200RPM, 2MB cache = $56
MSI MS-8216140BL 16x DVD/48x CD Black = $35
Samsung 1.44MB black floppy drive = $13

Total = $405

Other than some insane prices thanks to S&H being added to the retail price, does anyone see any majorly bad ideas in the above setup? I know it's not the best system in the world, but then it's also only four hundred bucks.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

Tommunist · Jun 17, 2003

My only suggestion might be to consider getting an nforce2 IGP mobo because that will cost the same as getting the KT400 mobo and GF4 MX together and I am under the impression that the nforce2 IGP may be a better choice. I could be wrong.

"Don't question it!!!" - Err

speeduk · Jun 17, 2003

If your going to be using it for browsing the net and low key stuff then its fine. If you plan on playing almost any game or doing anything intensive then dont ever get a geforce 4mx. I can tell your not really into the latest pc hardware with the components you have chosen and are looking for a bargain. Ever tried overclocking? The 1700xp tbred is the perfect cpu for overclocking to decent speeds. If not i guess its not much of an upgrade really.

2100xp @ 2245mhz (204x11 @ 1.825v)
Epox 8RDA3+ Nforce 2 ultra 400
2x512mb pc3200
ATI 9700 pro
3DMARK 2K1 = 16,050

slvr_phoenix · Jun 17, 2003

My only suggestion might be to consider getting an nforce2 IGP mobo because that will cost the same as getting the KT400 mobo and GF4 MX together and I am under the impression that the nforce2 IGP may be a better choice. I could be wrong.

My understanding was that the nForce4 with the IGP more or less was a GF4MX. I did look at a mobo with nForce2 and IGP for around $120, but in the end I figured that the cheaper KT400 + GF4MX for $104 was good too.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jun 17, 2003

If not i guess its not much of an upgrade really.

So you're saying that a Celeron 500 with 128MB of PC66 RAM, 12GB of HD space using two ATA33 drives, a Savage4 PCI card for graphics, a crappy 2-channel onboard sound codec and a 32x CD ROM is about the same as an AXP 1700+ with 256MB of PC2700 RAM, 40GB of HD space using a 7200RPM drive, a GF4MX AGP card for graphics, a 5.1-channel surround-sound system, and a 16x DVD drive?

Okay speeduk, if you say so. 😛

Seriously though, I might try OCing the 1700+ to a 333MHz FSB, but it's not a big concern. And I know the GF4MX sucks, but my wife only plays games like The Sims and Sim City 3000, so intensive graphics are not a major concern. Heh heh.

Serious gaming will be done on an entirely different PC. 😉

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

basmic · Jun 17, 2003

Lite-On Model# MT 950 (Black) ATX Mid w/ 300W = $62 I'm humming and harring about the PSU. Perhaps get a higher wattage PSU, say around 350-400W for future-proofing.
Logitech Black Optical Desktop (keyboard/mouse) = $31
(retail)Biostar M7VIT PRO KT400 = $58
(OEM) AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (Thoroughbred) = $44
Speeze FalconRock Heatsink Al/Cu 80mm = $14
Arctic Silver Ceramique compound 2.7g/0.8cc = $10 I've heard one or two rumours of Ceramique flaking sometimes. However, perhaps this is just in extreme conditions.
256MB KINGSTON KVR333X64C25 PC2700 CL2.5 = $36 Try going for perhaps 512MB. In the long run, it will pay off to have a decent amount of RAM for future games. Not to mention to stash those Sims expansion packs in memory, rather than using the hard-drive to page the memory.
VGA Apollo GF4 MX440 64MB DDR w/TV Out = $46 Perhaps a Geforce Ti series?
Western Digital WD400BB 40GB, 7200RPM, 2MB cache = $56 Grab a 40gb or even 80gb Special Edition of these drives. These run faster because of the 8MB cache, and run silently (and possibly more cooler with less chance of ball bearings fail). I've heard nothing but praise for these babies, and sounds as though they pay off for a few extra pounds/dollars.
MSI MS-8216140BL 16x DVD/48x CD Black = $35
Samsung 1.44MB black floppy drive = $13

My ranting on about future-proofing etc is probably pissing you off. But I'd rather buy what I could afford to save buying a further upgrade in the future, which I could have possibly avoided. Think about it, and you'll realise it's perhaps more econmical!

That's my help for you anyhow, and I'm no true expert in comparison to some of the guys/girls around here!

Some people don't realise that a mere two hours backing up their data is far quicker than redoing all the work again!

Tommunist · Jun 18, 2003

yeah - I realized that the gpus would be pretty much the same but I saw some of those nforce2 IGP boards for between 95 and 110 at newegg (maybe I was looking at the wrong ones but I don't think so) and I thought that the overall setup would be a bit better (since the nforce2 chipsets seem to be a little more stable). The difference would probably be negligible though.

(the onboard sound will be better I think too)

"Don't question it!!!" - ErrEdited by Tommunist on 06/17/03 05:03 PM.

markgun · Jun 18, 2003

Well I guess it depends on what OS he plans on running his platform on too. If he's running Windows 9X then the nforce2 option might be a little flakey. And he would need another stick of RAM (Dual channel) or the IGP would perform horribly. But the <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=75MRN-L" target="_new">Soltek SL-75MRN-L </A> for $96 w/ free shipping at newegg seems like a pretty good deal.

Spitfire_x86 · Jun 18, 2003

Get a nForce2 IGP mobo. If you buy Epox 8RGA+, then you'll get nForce APU. It costs $99

Do you know that you have a very good chance of getting a MX440 with 64bit memory when you're buying from brands like VGA Apollo? nForce2 IGP ísn't that bad like MX440 with 64bit memory.

Buy a LiteOn DVD-ROM instead of MSI. LiteOn makes the best DVD-ROM and they don't cost much. « LITE-ON XJ-HD166S/XJ-HD165H 16X DVD ROM Drive - Retail » costs $34 at newegg. $1 cheaper than the inferior MSI drive

----------------
<A HREF="http://geocities.com/spitfire_x86" target="_new"> My Website</A>

<A HREF="http://geocities.com/spitfire_x86/myrig.html" target="_new"> My Rig</A>

AMD_me · Jun 18, 2003

nForce2 has far better performance, memory support, and is mmuch less buggier than KT400.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=24302" target="_new">My System</A>
My NEW, Breaking 23k 3DMark2001 Score: <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6597084" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6597084</A>

Crashman · Jun 18, 2003

Newegg sells a classic black Inwin midtower with 4 large bays and a Power Man 300W supply, for a similar price. Inwin's case quality goes without saying more.

Did you know that for a similar price as that board and card you can get an nForce2 board with onboard video, onboard TV-Out, and nForce APU? The performance should be similar to that MX440, and you always have an AGP slot for upgrades.

Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Several people are suggesting the same things so I'm going to try to answer this in one post.

I had originally planned on getting an nForce2 with the IGP. It had been on my first draft of hardware picks.

However, to my knowledge when you do this you have to share the system memory. So if I allocated 64MB to the IGP, that leaves only 192MB left of the 256MB of the main memory. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I tend not to use integrated graphics systems, so maybe technology has improved in the last few years and I just missed it.)

On top of that, this also means that the IGP is going to be sucking up the bandwidth that the CPU would like to be utilizing. The only way to make sure that they both have enough bandwidth to not be bottlenecking each other constantly during gaming is to run the nForce2 in dual-channel mode. Doing this of course requires two sticks of memory instead of one, which again costs more.

These things in and of themselves aren't so bad though. If I had a compelling reason, I'd do it. The little bit of extra performance of the nForce2 over the KT400 isn't exactly compelling when we're already dealing with such a budget system though. And for that matter neither is the onboard sound, since the KT400 motherboard that I chose does have 6-channel audio, and since my wife will probably run 4-channel at most. (Most likely she'll smack me for suggesting any more visible wires than necessary and demand just two speakers where the wires can be easily hidden behind the back of the desk.)

What really worries me about using the nForce2 and IGP though is that I'd really like to use my retail Win98SE license from my dead Pentium 133 as the OS for this system. (Since it's not like the P133 is going to use it anymore.) That's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a new WinXP license, which is what I'd probably have to do if I got an nForce2 mobo. (What with all of the horror stories of bad Win9x drivers for the nForce2 mobos.) Unless the nForce2 drivers for Win98SE have suddenly gotten better I'd really like to avoid finding out the hard way that they haven't.

So, as markgun wisely figured, I have my reasons for the KT400. Which really is quite odd considering that I swore on a blood oath (well really it was on the blood from when I cut myself on a cheap case while trying to get to a flaky VIA mobo) that I'd never ever buy a VIA product personally. So go fig.

Honestly, I'd quickly go with the nForce2 with IGP over the KT400 if I could trust it to run on Win98SE flawlessly while running onboard everything. And since markgun pointed me to an nForce2 with IGP for $96 at Newegg (which their motherboard search engine somehow missed displaying for me yesterday) it would fit into the $400 budget nicely.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

ChipDeath · Jun 18, 2003

Glad I didn't hear about these 'horror stories' with win98SE before I bought my Epox 8RDA+ mobo. Might have made me get some crappy via thing instead, and I would have missed out on an extremely stable, cheap, and very overclockable board. I've had No problems at all, and I'm running win98SE.

Just out of curiousity, could someone post a link to somewhere I can read about these 'issues'.. Are they only with certain bits of hardware or something?

---

:tongue:

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Lite-On Model# MT 950 (Black) ATX Mid w/ 300W = $62 I'm humming and harring about the PSU. Perhaps get a higher wattage PSU, say around 350-400W for future-proofing.

I think a generic 300W is considerable overkill for a T-Bred 1700+ that will quite possibly remain at stock, a single hard drive, a single CD ROM, a GF4MX, and a whole one case fan. There will likely be a good amount of room left for minor upgrades. But yeah, I also agree with you that if I were planning for a major upgrade path over the next year or two for this system, starting out with a much better power supply would be a wise idea. It's just that in this case I'm not likely do ever do much of an upgrade, and if I do I'd be perfectly happy to invest in a better power supply at that time.

tic Silver Ceramique compound 2.7g/0.8cc = $10 I've heard one or two rumours of Ceramique flaking sometimes. However, perhaps this is just in extreme conditions.

In theory both this stuff and AS3 have the same possible flaw. They burn-in over the first few days of heavy testing (or longer if you don't do testing) where the particles align to form good conductivity. Then they dry up and the particles stay that way. In theory. Of course if you move the heat sink or knock the system around you could probably cause problems and should then wipe the CPU and heat sink clean and start over. I don't think it'll really be a problem for me.

256MB KINGSTON KVR333X64C25 PC2700 CL2.5 = $36 Try going for perhaps 512MB. In the long run, it will pay off to have a decent amount of RAM for future games. Not to mention to stash those Sims expansion packs in memory, rather than using the hard-drive to page the memory.

I'd agree with you if there were any future games to be put onto this machine. Actually, I'd love for it to have 512MB of RAM if it could somehow be done and still keep the total system cost at $400. Those damn expansions to The Sims seem to suck up memory like candy.

VGA Apollo GF4 MX440 64MB DDR w/TV Out = $46 Perhaps a Geforce Ti series?

To play The Sims? For the price increase of a Ti4200 over an MX440 I could get that extra 256MB of RAM and that'd do a lot more for my wife than the Ti4200 would. If it were my own personal system I wouldn't even touch the MX440 in the first place, but my wife doesn't play the games that I do. (And mostly she does web page design stuff and web surfing anyway, so even the MX440 is a little overkill.)

Western Digital WD400BB 40GB, 7200RPM, 2MB cache = $56 Grab a 40gb or even 80gb Special Edition of these drives. These run faster because of the 8MB cache, and run silently (and possibly more cooler with less chance of ball bearings fail). I've heard nothing but praise for these babies, and sounds as though they pay off for a few extra pounds/dollars.

I thought that the BB and the JB used the same bearings and the only difference was in the cache size and the length of the waranty. So unless I'm mistaken it should be just as cool, just as quiet, and just as good of a MTBF. Since the cache only improves the initial burst transfer rate and drops off once that's done with, it hardly seems worth the extra money for such a budget system. I'd only consider the JB for the waranty. And the cost of an 80GB drive is definately too high to use in this system. My wife is used to 12GB, most of which is taken up by my games and tools like Visual C++ 6.0. I think 40GB will be heaven for her. Heck, the 12GB would probably do her if I even just cleaned my junk off of the drives. Heh heh heh.

My ranting on about future-proofing etc is probably pissing you off. But I'd rather buy what I could afford to save buying a further upgrade in the future, which I could have possibly avoided. Think about it, and you'll realise it's perhaps more econmical!

Pissing me off, no, not really. What'd be worth getting pissed over? I appreciate the thought that you put into it. However in this case I just don't agree with you. My wife just won't need the future proofing. If she can play The Sims with all of the expansions that she has bought for it installed and without it chunking, then she'll be as happy as a cat in a field of catnip. I think that this system will give her that.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

Stain · Jun 18, 2003

However, to my knowledge when you do this you have to share the system memory. So if I allocated 64MB to the IGP, that leaves only 192MB left of the 256MB of the main memory.

This is true.

If you went nForce IGP with only 1x256MB RAM you'd be hurting for sure.

Your insane logic behind buying the Via actually makes sense to me. I couldn't force myself to do it though. (expecially Biostar, just me?)

I would definately look into ATI vid cards instead of the MX and I couldn't buy a 400BB when 800JB are only ~$25 more.

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Do you know that you have a very good chance of getting a MX440 with 64bit memory when you're buying from brands like VGA Apollo? nForce2 IGP ísn't that bad like MX440 with 64bit memory.

The MX440 that I picked out has a 128bit memory interface. I already thought of that.

Buy a LiteOn DVD-ROM instead of MSI. LiteOn makes the best DVD-ROM and they don't cost much. « LITE-ON XJ-HD166S/XJ-HD165H 16X DVD ROM Drive - Retail » costs $34 at newegg. $1 cheaper than the inferior MSI drive

I looked at that too. The LITE-ON however didn't come with an audio cable and the MSI did. That and once S&H was factored in the MSI was noticably cheaper. Plus the MSI boasted an access time of 95ms (compared to the LITE-ON's 120ms). Plus the LITE-ON drives are always in and out of stock like mad, which can drive you nuts some times when you go to order.

So unless you can actually quantify how the LITE-ON is better I don't see a reason to switch. Can you give stats on why the LITE-ON is a better drive?

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Newegg sells a classic black Inwin midtower with 4 large bays and a Power Man 300W supply, for a similar price. Inwin's case quality goes without saying more.

I agree. That'd be nice. I wasn't too thrilled about the case that I'd selected, but hoped that it wouldn't be so bad. I don't suppose you could provide a direct link? None of the searches that I've done will bring up such an animal for me at Newegg. 🙁

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Glad I didn't hear about these 'horror stories' with win98SE before I bought my Epox 8RDA+ mobo. Might have made me get some crappy via thing instead, and I would have missed out on an extremely stable, cheap, and very overclockable board. I've had No problems at all, and I'm running win98SE.

I know. I've heard just as many success stories as I've heard horror stories. 🙁 I wish I just had proof that something like "flashing to BIOS revision xxxx" or "installing driver xxxx" fixes all problems with Win9x. If I just had notable proof that I should be good to go then I'd just go with it. But I'd be pissed if I thought that it was safe and then ended up having to buy WinXP. I mean that ain't cheap. 🙁

Just out of curiousity, could someone post a link to somewhere I can read about these 'issues'.. Are they only with certain bits of hardware or something?

Good luck. I've read horror-story posts over a multitude of tech forums. I couldn't point you to a specific one if I tried. All I can suggest is doing a search for nForce2 and Win9x. **shrug**

If it helps, most of the problems that I've read about seem to involve the audio drivers. A lot of people using Win9x seem to get all sorts of popping noises that drive people nuts. I've had to use tiny low-power ear plugs with a crappy sound card before, so I can appreciate how insane that can drive a person. It was so bad that I finally had to switch to headphones that required a lot more juice just so that it would filter that crap out. But if the popping is caused by the drivers and not by plain old electrical noise then there is no good solution other than better drivers. And no one seems to care about Win9x anymore. 🙁

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

If you went nForce IGP with only 1x256MB RAM you'd be hurting for sure.

Your insane logic behind buying the Via actually makes sense to me. I couldn't force myself to do it though. (expecially Biostar, just me?)

I have to agree. If I personally was going to be using the system there's no way that I'd even be stuck in this kind of situation because I'd just spend more money to get out of it.

I really would prefer the nForce and IGP though. 🙁 I just can't place faith in it working with Win98SE. Again, if it were myself I'd just get WinXP Pro anyway, or I'd keep the money for that aside and try Win98SE first anyway. But my wife has her own way of doing her budgets and so I have my limitations on what I'm allowed to do with her system. 🙁

I would definately look into ATI vid cards instead of the MX

I'm really not that concerned about the graphics performance though.

I couldn't buy a 400BB when 800JB are only ~$25 more.

Normally I couldn't either. In this case I could though because $25 is almost enough for 512MB of RAM instead of 256MB of RAM. Even something as small as $25 can make a huge difference in this system. Besides, I doubt that she'll ever even fill 10GB of that drive. She doesn't listen to MP3s. She doesn't play many games. Her hard drive storage is primarily used for size-optimized web graphics and HTML files. Those just don't add up very quickly at all.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

markgun · Jun 18, 2003

I don't suppose you could provide a direct link? None of the searches that I've done will bring up such an animal for me at Newegg. 🙁

<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=J523G" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=J523G</A>
I think that's the case he is talking about. It looks like that case has a pretty potent 300W PSU compared to the Lite-on case (ie, 28A vs 14A on the 3.3V rail). The $18 for shipping might hurt the budget though.

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Thanks for the link. I guess the reason that it wasn't coming up was that it's listed as being beige in color, even though the pictures are black. Funky. Sometimes I really have to laugh at Newegg. They're good at doing stuff like that. Sometimes you really have to contact them to make sure.

But it's also out of stock, which figures. And the S&H does jump the price up a tad too, though it might be worth it ... if the case truly is black. I'll have to watch out for a reappearance once it's back in stock.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

ChipDeath · Jun 18, 2003

since I'm going to be building an Nforce2 system for a friend tonight, I did some hunting around, and lots of people have indeed had many issues with the soundstorm chip and Win98SE, but apparently
<A HREF="http://www1.rm.com/docs/files/pc/q242937.exe" target="_new">This Patch</A> fixes All such issues.

So now there is no reason to not go down the Nforce2 route (IMHO anyway)

---

:tongue:

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

since I'm going to be building an Nforce2 system for a friend tonight, I did some hunting around, and lots of people have indeed had many issues with the soundstorm chip and Win98SE, but apparently
This Patch fixes All such issues.

Sweet! That's monumentally incredible news! (Well, to me anyway.)

I don't suppose you could also be so kind as to provide a link to an article or something explaining the fix? I'm intrigued to know what the source of the problem was.

(It helps in explaining to other people just why they don't have to worry anymore.)

So now there is no reason to not go down the Nforce2 route (IMHO anyway)

Sounds good to me. Now I just have to figure out how to squeeze in 512MB of RAM instead of 256MB. I've cut so many corners on this poor system already, but let's see what I can do. Heh heh.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jun 18, 2003

Okay, here's an update on the system specs:

Lite-On Model# MT 950 (Black) ATX Mid w/300W = $62
KEYBOARD-2000 black keyboard and mouse = $16
(retail)Soltek SL-75MRN-L nForce2 + IGP = $96
(OEM) AMD Athlon XP 1700+ Thoroughbred = $44
Speeze FalconRock Heatsink Al/Cu 80mm = $14
Arctic Silver Ceramique compound 2.7g/0.8cc = $10
256MB All Components PC-2700 = $32
256MB All Components PC-2700 = $32
Western Digital WD400BB 40GB, 7200RPM, 2MB cache = $56
MSI MS-8216140BL 16x DVD/48xCD Black = $35
Samsung 1.44MB black floppy drive = $13

Total = $410

I'm scared to go with no-name RAM. It'll probably end up being CAS3. I'll also miss the brand-name keyboard and mouse. Hopefully the cheaper replacements won't give me too many problems.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

markgun · Jun 18, 2003

It looks like that is a hotfix for Win98SE
<A HREF="http://www.rm.com/docs/PC/00/1257.asp" target="_new">http://www.rm.com/docs/PC/00/1257.asp</A>
<A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;242937" target="_new">http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;242937</A>
<A HREF="http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2088&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0" target="_new">http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2088&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0</A>

That sounds very promising! The nForce2 sounds like the better option now.

'Upgrading' my Celeron 500...

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