Wall-Sized 3D Displays: The Ultimate Gaming Room

[gm0n3y]

I can't imaging playing DOOM in 3D. Turn all the lights off, crank up the surround sound, 100" of 3D insanity. That would be so awesome.

 

[nubie]

Just so you know you can do this with LCD projectors and polarized glasses. There are many to whom the minimum refresh rate must be 120hz or higher, and also the added cost of shutterglasses vs a pair of polarized glasses. Plarized glasses range from $0.50 to $4 for a very nice set, or $10-15 for "designer" stylized models. You need not worry about breaking them and a lot of people can watch all at once.

Google for "Jm777 planar" to find my forum posts on forums.nvidia

I am also building a setup that will take any two LCD monitors and a <$80 mirror and make it 3D, this goes for any diagonal LCD screens, size doesn't matter (although the mirror will be more expensive).

I am making my setup with used/broken LCDs and it is on track for under $300 with 2 8ms 17" PLanar screens.

To use polarized projection you need a silver polarization-preserving screen, I got a 70"x70" model brand new (da-lite silver matte) for $142.

This allows me an 80" diagonal 16:9 display, even larger in a standard 4:3 layout.

I know everyone is brainwashed into the shutterglasses and anaglyph mode, but there are so many other options out there.

You can even remove the polarizing layer on an LCD screen and lay it on top of another LCD display, then set the nvidia driver to "negative" the monitor that has now turned negative itself, allowing true direct-view polarized glasses.

Please maybe cover the 4-5 other ways to do this, not just the generic shutter way, which has many caveats and may not be the most appropriate for all setups.

Edit, for the guy above me, I haven't tried yet, been to busy with world racing 2 and Tomb Raider legend, do you know the sneaking cutscene in the beginning (aka the only accurate chest physics in the whole game)? Well let's just say "they're real, and they're 3D, and they're spectacular!"

 

[dinther]

Fascinating project you are working on. Are you keeping a web-site to show progress? I like to hear more about it and see some construction pictures if there are any.

 

[DHC8]

...so the FPS would be my "killer apps". I guess people have tried it, so how was the 3D experience with scary games like Doom 3 or F.E.A.R.? Any dirty underwear anywhere, or did it not make them scarier?

This and of course chest physics :lol: , or sports games might be of interrest

 

[AW3D]

[Thanks to cleeve for posting the link to my paper - now I've managed to login myself, I can post the info myself]

There is a large selection of 85Hz "time-sequential" 3D compatible projectors - here's a list of 15:

Projector Make/Model (Resolution):
Acer PD322 (1024x768)
Acer PD523 (1024x768)
Acer PH110 (854x480)
BenQ MP610 (800x600)
BenQ PB6240 (1024x768)
Boxlight Raven (800x600)
Casio XJ-360 (1024x768)
NEC LT35 (1024x768)
Optoma EP719 (1024x768)
Optoma EP739 (1024x768)
Plus U4-237 (1024x768)
Plus U5-112 (800x600)
Sharp XR-10X (1024x768)
Toshiba TDP-S8 (800x600)
Yamaha DPX-530 (1024x576)

More information is available in the paper:
http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

Additional 85Hz compatible projectors are listed here:
http://www.stereo3d.com/discus/messages/3177/3347.html?#POST17542

SQ40 wrote:

Looks like the Biggest Problem is with the Color Wheel Speed.
Most are measured at 60hz, 2x. The ones that work for 3D
remain at 2x at 85hz+, some of the light engines drop the
color wheel speed down to 1.5x at 85hz.

Incorrect. Color wheel speed is not related to 3D compatibility. 3D compatibility appears to be purely a firmware switch inside the projector whether the color wheel synchronises with the incoming video signal or not. Some makes and modes are 3D compatible, some aren't - see the list in the paper for 30 '85Hz 3D' incompatible projectors.

Also, ALL of the 85Hz compatible projectors we tested switched down to 1.5x color wheel at the higher frequency. This is responsible for the slight color difference between eyes but has nothing to do with 3D compatibility.

Some other tidbits:* Only XGA resolution (or below) projectors would do 85Hz 3D. (The maximum rate for higher resolution projectors was 60Hz).
* There is one "consumer" projector that will do 120Hz 3D - the DepthQ - but the price is about US$3k. http://www.depthq.com/projector.html
* There is a selection of 3D DVDs available which can be viewed in 3D on 3D compatible DLP projectors. See the list here:
http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/3dmovies
Enjoy!

 

[pillock]

Heres an example which i find interesting. Has anyone worked with anything similar?

WHY invest all the effort in a 3d projection system and stereoscopic glasse for gaming purposes? The glasses bottleneck the effect to a single user. Why not just opt for glasses which incorporate stereoscopic features and eliminate the high-price of a projector?

Obviously the large screen will have benefits for the non-gaming/home theater folks (or several screens can replicate a large field of vision) BUT the cost differential (against the system in the article) for gaming ONLY is HUGE when compared to just glasses themselves.

I'm really curious what people think.

Note: A quick google lead to icuiti auctions listed on ebay, there are several competitors, i cannot speak or vouch for anything other than an antiquated (crap) ELSA stereoscopic glasses and nVidia bundle with a CRT over 5 years ago.

 

[Pyricblade]

BTW for the question about DOOM3...
It looks GREAT... the only thing I recall having to adjust was turning off the shadows because they all rendered at 0 depth to the screen. Also it helps greatly to tweak the gamma up a bit as it's a dark game to begin with.

 

[cleeve]

I'm really curious what people think.

Check out the resolution though: 640x480

Glasses with twin LCD screens tend to have very limited resolution for the price. In the future, when they can make smaller high-res displays, it'll probably be a great option though... but for now, not so much.

 

[pillock]

Check out the resolution though: 640x480

The icuitis (and most of the competitors) are 640x480 but some offer 800x600 i.e. not _that_ big of a step down from 1024x768? Admittedly the price starts to approach that of the article.

 

[nubie]

Fascinating project you are working on. Are you keeping a web-site to show progress? I like to hear more about it and see some construction pictures if there are any.

Here are a couple links to Barry Aldous website, he has done polarized with LCD monitors and with DLP projectors.
http://www.aldous.net/photo/project08.htm

http://www.aldous.net/photo/project09.htm

He got the LCD monitor idea from Co van Ekeren (Mr. Co van Ekeren called it the "cobox"), although Planar makes a setup they call the "stereomirror" that is a free-standing frame, not a box.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cobox.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~wolkers1960/3digitaal/index.html (4th picture down)

http://www.planar.com/products/flatpanel_monitors/stereoscopic/

I plan to try the frame, but I need 2 working monitors and I must compile them from broken monitors on ebay, so far I have 1 1/2 working monitors (one has a bad backlight inverter, so I need to find one for spares)

Sources for parts on the Monitor setup:

$40 for a 15x10 piece of the special mirror needed for a 17" diagonal monitor: http://www.telepromptermirrors.com/

Silver screens (be sure to get the silver matte surface): http://www.onlyscreens.com/versatol.htm

There are $144 100" diagonal 16x9 screens on that website, new direct from factory Da-Lite, high quality, my 70"x70" is built like a tank and has a free-standing tripod with full adjustment and a keystone eliminator arm.

Here is my thread on forums.nvidia, lots of nice links for projection there:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=31636

http://www.berezin.com/3d/3dglasses.htm#Polarized is the place to buy your glasses and polarizing bits.

Heres an example which i find interesting. Has anyone worked with anything similar?

WHY invest all the effort in a 3d projection system and stereoscopic glasse for gaming purposes? The glasses bottleneck the effect to a single user. Why not just opt for glasses which incorporate stereoscopic features and eliminate the high-price of a projector?

Obviously the large screen will have benefits for the non-gaming/home theater folks (or several screens can replicate a large field of vision) BUT the cost differential (against the system in the article) for gaming ONLY is HUGE when compared to just glasses themselves.

I'm really curious what people think.

Note: A quick google lead to icuiti auctions listed on ebay, there are several competitors, i cannot speak or vouch for anything other than an antiquated (crap) ELSA stereoscopic glasses and nVidia bundle with a CRT over 5 years ago.

As I say, dual DLP's are coming into the $500 price range, get two and use polarizing filters, you will see 1024x768 or 1280x1024 at a 50" - 100" screen size, and you will have 2 projectors when you aren't watching 3D. The glasses cost in the $0.50-$3.00 range and everyone can watch.

See http://www.berezin.com/3d/3dglasses.htm#Polarized for the glasses, and for the polarizing filters, the $15 polarizers are fine for 3" lenses on the DLP's.

I think for the average gamer a dual LCD polarized monitor setup would give the best results, they are very high resolution and only need the mirror posted above (get the correct size for your display, custom sizes on that link).

The direct-view monitor setup is inexpensive, literally the cost of 2 LCD's and a frame and mirror, also it doesn't take up much room on a desk, it just overhangs the second monitor. Since LCD's are so cheap and you probably already use one the cost is significantly reduced if you can find a used twin of your monitor on eBay for 1/2 or less the new MSRP, this coupled with the Nvidia dual-output mode enables true flicker and ghost-free images.


If you must do projection (can't say I blame you ), look above at Barry Aldous website for his setup, ANY DLP will work, you just need two and some inexpensive polarizers. Note that you can use $500 models and then when not projecting in 3D you could have 2 projectors for separate movies/rooms/multiplayer gaming or extra-wide-screen projection.

Like I say the technology is out there, but everyone thinks anaglyph and shutter, although the polarized setups have higher contrast than all but the most expensive shutter glasses ($200-$400), and are passive, inexpensive and suffer no timing or flickering issues (I get intense migraine headaches from refresh rates in the 60hz range, thus I would need a 120hz or higher, preferably 140hz, DLP projector and accompanying glasses, very expensive and silly considering the available alternatize).

My camera is finally working, I just need a USB cable now and I can get some pictures of all of the goodies I am working on. It is a special Fuji connector and I ordered one on eBay.

 

[dinther]

Thanks for all that mate, much appreciated. I need to go out now but when I come back I have a more close look at those links.

One question I didn't see answered so quickly. How do you configure the NVidea stereo driver to drive two LCD screens?

I have a high powered PC with two 7900GT cards in it NOT configured in SLI. I have 4 Wide screen LCD monitors connected to them and run a super wide surround desktop.

So the hardware is there but I can not figure out how to configure the stereo drive to give me a left eye image on monitor one and a right eye image on monitor 2. (And of course I want to try that also on monitor 3 and 4 at the same time)

 

[dinther]

Just to be complete, I do have the option to select "Dual VGA output (Dep3D)"
but all I ever get is a dual image side by side with some brown spots on it and a text telling me I should see 3D in the spots. This image is displayed on my Center monitor only.

No matter what settings I apply, the result is always this dumb dual test image.

 

[nubie]

Just to be complete, I do have the option to select "Dual VGA output (Dep3D)"
but all I ever get is a dual image side by side with some brown spots on it and a text telling me I should see 3D in the spots. This image is displayed on my Center monitor only.

No matter what settings I apply, the result is always this dumb dual test image.

There are 3 or maybe 4 dual output VGA modes. I don't know about more than one image at a time (aka widescreen multi-mon) on this setup, I haven't tried. I don't see why you couldn't do 2 sets of clones if they are on 2 cards, but the real problem is that 3D apps need to go full-screen to enable the 3D, I don't know if your app/game supports that across 2 sets of clones.

I put 2 monitors into clone mode, then I go to the stereo settings and select Planar dual mirrored, or whatever setup you use. If you take a look at the links above to Barry Aldous and Co van Ekeran and Planar the setup will be obvious, you just need the mirror I provided a link to and some polarized glasses.

You will see two images on two monitors until you get that mirror and set it up, then you put on the Polarized lenses and each eye will only see one monitor.

Then upon full-screen in a DirectX application (or game) divergence is applied to the scene on each screen to make your eyes move outward to focus on objects "farther away" in the 3D scene.

 

[nubie]

Just to be perfectly clear, 2 DLP with polarizing filters and a silver screen, plus the polarizing glasses is the same price as the way this article describes, possibly a few $xxx cheaper as you are using simpler technology and can source it anywhere (aka bone-standard DLP and the same old paper glasses from forever) Da-Lite has been making silver screens for I don't know how long (how long has there been slide projection or home movies?), like I link to the screens are plenty cheap $160 with shipping New from the factory.

We aren't talking about rocket science here, new DLP's are $500 and they don't have to be shutter sync'ed, plus you get 2 projectors, so even if you aren't doing the 3D you can have 2 screens going.

Any 3D worth having is the nVidia driver, and the nVidia driver loves the dual-output stereo with some polarization.

Not to mention there is no flickering and 100 people could watch for $40 worth of polarized glasses.

I would appreciate it if the author of this article tries again with $500 DLP's and polarization.

I hear people saying that "shutter is more compatible" I don't see why, the driver either works or it doesn't, I have had no problems, if one way works (shutter/anaglyph) they will all work (polarized/Dual/HMD etc)

 

[yuvalro]

very interesting analysis of some low-end components/setup, would love to see the mid-range picture as well!

 

[nubie]

very interesting analysis of some low-end components/setup, would love to see the mid-range picture as well!

?? Seems like we just walked into a conversation you are having with yourself, we need some context.

My point is that your setup is only limited by your imagination. And the Tomshardware article did nothing to help people think outside the "anaglyph and shutter-glasses" box. There are many ways to play, just try something for cheap, decide if you like it, and then decide if you want to setup a big one.

I wonder how many are turned off by the shutter glasses and then equate 3D with shutter glasses? Or anaglyph for that matter. Not cool.

I tried the stereo projection with 800x480 projectors and I want a high-def version now. So I am planning a DIY 15" or 17" LCD monitor-based Projector, see lumenlab.com for info. The idea is sound and the parts are cheap, these guys use Ikea spoons as the reflector, as hacky as that sounds it works and is a totally viable optical hack for a light-engine reflector.

 

[ViksIT]

I am thinking about buying the optoma HD70 beamer.
Will it work with the eDimension glasses ?

 

[AW3D]

I am thinking about buying the optoma HD70 beamer.
Will it work with the eDimension glasses ?

We tested the Optoma HD72i - a 'similar' projector. It would work at 60Hz 3D, but not 85Hz 3D. i.e. flicker city.

The HD70 could be completely different - but is unlikely to be able to do 85Hz 3D since in the 45 projectors that we tested, none over XGA resolution would do anything higher than 60Hz 3D.

 

[Doon1]

Dinther,
it is possible to display stereo on two displays. There's a registery change that needs to be made. Some people have used two screens, black cardboard and mirrors to achieve a workable stereoscopic experience. The only drawbacks being that you can't move your head as you have to look into a stationary viewer and the setup is time consuming.
To those that asked about a dual projector setup. the answer is yes. My friend has a dual projector setup and it is by far the best stereo I've seen.
For those of you with a CRT monitor. If your monitor is capable of 120hz at your desired resolution then it is the very best single display solution there is. I used to use a freznel in front of my 19" trinitron and almost doubled my FOV.
John

 

[Doon1]

A CRT projector is WAY better than a DLP projector for stereo. They have a hight refresh rate, they're brighter, have better color, deeper blacks, and virtually no ghosting. there's is considerable setup time but once you have it mounted to the ceiling and properly focused then you're ready to go. They are more expensive than DLP but if you can afford it it's the only way to go.
John

 

[AW3D]

A CRT projector is WAY better than a DLP projector for stereo. They have a hight refresh rate, they're brighter, have better color, deeper blacks, and virtually no ghosting.

Actually... CRT projectors usually have a lot of ghosting. This is because CRT projectors usually have a different phosphor set (than CRT monitors) which have very long phosphor decay. There are special short decay phosphor CRT projectors but they are even more expensive - if they are even sold any longer.

In comparison, a DLP projector has ZERO phosphor decay. Each mirror can change state in 2us. The ghosting is therefore due to the LCS glasses entirely.

More technical info is here:
"Characterising Sources of Ghosting in Time-Sequential Stereoscopic Video Displays"
http://www.curtin.edu.au/cmst/publicat/2002-09.pdf

 

[Doon1]

Hello AW3D,
Although I've read that paper before (was it you that posted it stereo3d a couple of years ago?) I've found from personal experience that I got a better stereo experience on my CRT than my DPL. The APP that stands out the most is Microsoft Flight Simulator. I've never been able to completely remove the blue ghosting on the cockpit frame. It is also very evident in the spinning Nvidia stero setup screen. I never had the issue on my old Sony CRT. It could be that I had the top of the line Trinitron and an entry level projector. But as you stated projector cannons use different phosphors which could make all the difference in the world. I have seen a CRT stereo display a couple of years before getting my DLP projector and remember it being a much better experience. That could just be my perception though.
John

 

[cleeve]

Just to be perfectly clear, 2 DLP with polarizing filters and a silver screen, plus the polarizing glasses is the same price as the way this article describes, possibly a few $xxx cheaper as you are using simpler technology and can source it anywhere

I can't see it being cheaper as we bought the cheapest 1024x768 projector we could find for the article, and you're automatically doubling that expense...

But I'll look into it. So, two projectors, two polarizing filters, polarized glasses. Do you need anything special to hook the buggers up? How do you get the two separate signals to the projectors?
Are you guys saying that the Nvidia drivers can be set up to do it automatically through the two video card outputs?

 

[Doon1]

Yes you can send the signal to two seperate projectors. You mount then in an over-under configuration with each projector being able to be adjusted seperately from one another. A de-polorizing sceen is needed and can be purchased or made if you have the patience to do so for a fraction of the cost.
There is also an Infocus stereo projector available that is built from the X1. It's only 800x600 resolution but I thing a 1024x768 flavor is in the works. it has a 120hz refresh rate (60fps per eye). you still have to use shutter glasses but there is no need for any special polorizing filters or screen.
By the way, I built a 10' screen (8'x6') for $50. works like a charm.
John

 

[anthonybuchanan]

I want to use this monitor for 3D

htttp://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/princeton/

however I remeber the specs saying its a 60 Hz monitor at 1024X768. I cannot find any specs anymore since this thing is so old.

I run it maxed out at 1280X720 which is great.

My question is will this CRT with a refresh rate of 60 Hz give me the same strobing effect that the article mentions a 60 Hz DLP projector will do ??